Print Page | Close Window

Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=206
Printed Date: 13-Jul-2020 at 17:09
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Subject: Gaya and Koguryo (goguri)
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 23:45
Korean History is very conterversial and i just wanted to start a discussion on the Koguryo Dynasty and the fedaration of Gaya.

Fedaration of Gaya:  During the years before WWII Japan Claimed the Gaya was a colony of Japan and this assertion was the reason Japan gave to the world for annexing Korea, basically they are regaining lost land.  What do you think?

Koguryo: China is claiming Koguryo as a  Chinese Kingdom and  the Korea's are saying no.  What do you think?

I hope this forum is a little more peacful than the one on the CHina History forum about koguryo, that turned into a nationalistic riot (partly do to my part, but i'll behave better this time) so I was just wondering about everyone's takes on these issues.



Replies:
Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 05:18

I think Gaya=Japanese with one catch!  Since Japs came from Gaya, Japanese=Korean and therefore Japan should be Korean! j/k.  But I think their points are somewhat valid, because Chinese record mentions japan to have started in southern Korea and the lot moved to the island once Koguryo started to expand, as well as the Japanese creation myth which matches with Gaya creation myth.  And that stela thing they claim is false because they forged it.(wish I had the old AE post to prove this...)

Koguryo-I'll think more about this issue and come up with a better idea.

 



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:39

In the book of Korean history I read last summer it was that Japan was an ally of the southern kingdom but not in direct control over it at all.

 

BTW was Koguryo founded by Steppe peoples? If so that would be cool!



-------------
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:55
Actually from what I know the "korean" part of Japanese people are Baekje people, who were of Buyeo stock.  From what I understand, Shilla and Kaya were actually more Scythian

Yes Tobodai, I guess you could call the People of Koguryo Steppe People.  Koguryo was of Buyeo stock too, along with Baekje and Buyeo.  You Have to remember though, Koreans are made up of a bunch of totally different peoples, including Ainu, Dravidian, Scythian, Buyeo, Miao, and perhaps even Malay peoples. 


-------------


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 20:51

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I really have to see which Chinese sources are claiming Koguryo as Chinese, because if there are, I'm more sickened than ever by modern Mainland China intellectuals.  What on earth happened to the smarter guys, like Fung Yu Lan and the others?

Peace,

Michael

8-20-2004



Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 21:31
Those smarter mainland guys probably got what the PRC gives to everyone, a prison cell or a bullet to the head.

-------------
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 23:44

Hey Tobodai,

    I don't know what you hate about Confucianism (which is why I asked you how would you define it -- cuz that's often what it comes down to.  Depending on what you consider to be "Confucian," it might appear very positive or very negative.)  In any case, Chinese Communism -- now that's something we can all hate.

Peace,

Michael

8-20-2004



Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 01:25
communism in general its all pretty ungood.

-------------
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 16:14
I like communism in its ideal...i hate communism in its actual form...Its basically the PRC that's claiming Koguryo, i think its even on their website...its top historians and scientists...South Korea's waiting on what the PRC is going to put in its text books next year....The Big point for Koreans on this issue, which is often misunderstood, is not to claim Southern Manchuria and is not to do some other crazy nationalist thing...   Koreans feel that they have very little, owing to the states weakness in the late years of Josun, and they feel like they have to fight for every little scrap they have left.  ITs like a cornered rat...except in that case the cornered rat has become pretty strong...

-------------


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 17:04

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    Communism is also problematic in its ideal.  Its prediction about capitalism is only partly right (although right enough to alarm us.)  It's actual form has never existed, so I'm not sure how you can hate it: there has never been a Communist state.  According to Marx, Communism is achieved after the Socialist Proletariat Dictatorship dissolves when all classes disappear along with private properties.  Soviet Union, China, etc, were all Socialist Proletariat Dictatorship, not Communist state (there is no such thing as "Communist state" since Communist society is stateless.)

    "The Big point for Koreans on this issue, which is often misunderstood, is not to claim Southern Manchuria and is not to do some other crazy nationalist thing...   Koreans feel that they have very little, owing to the states weakness in the late years of Josun, and they feel like they have to fight for every little scrap they have left.  ITs like a cornered rat...except in that case the cornered rat has become pretty strong..."

    Depends how you define "crazy nationalist."  I agree that the Koreans feel that they have very little to claim.  But this is very unhealthy, just as unhealthy as Chinese deluding themselves to think that they have very much to claim.  Like I said in another post, nationalism is an illusion: a destructive Western invention that at least incites soccer fans to riot, and at worst lead the popularity of such figures as Bush and his war.  All human history is yours and mine: is it really important to claim it?  The Koreans and Chinese are, unfortunately, playing into this mind game of the Westerners (which was also taken up by the Japanese.)  Have you realized that the most "successful" countries that beat the crap out of others (economically and militarily) nowadays are the ones with relatively short histories (like the US)?  All these Chinese and Korean nationalist "myths" are no better than Nazi Aryan myths, and hopefully they don't evolve into the same atrocity as the latter.

Peace,

Michael

8-21-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 17:52
haha very well said

-------------


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 13:39

[I am not good at English,heheh]

I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished. 

Chinese historians now have many academic evidences to prove their viewpoint, Korean newspaper should not turn a blind eye to them. I believe only communication can dispel the atmosphere of misapprehension between the two people.

A week ago ,I wrote a letter to a Korean historical website:

webmaster@kookhakwon.org

GaoGuoLi=Koguryo

Hello Korean friends:

I am a Chinese in mainland China, also, an ancient history fans. I’m so interested
in your country so I read chinese chosun.com everyday. Recently, news about
GaoGuoLi controversy(高句丽争论)become the main concern of mine. Obviously,
I find Korean people are very angry about China’s viewpoint toward GaoGouLi,
but as a Han(汉族) Chinese, I have to say that whether GaoGouli was the
history of Korea still need more study.

The history of GaoGouLi is very complicated,all information were stored in
 old Chinese historical books, so I believe common people in Korea are not
 clear about it for they can not read historical books written in Chinese
 at all.

If Korean historians only told Korean people their own viewpoints but ignore
what Chinese people are thinking, that’s must be a big tragedy. In the same
way, Chinese people need know more about your viewpoint. I read attacks
and condemns of Korean journalists in articles of chinese chosun.com
 almost everyday, but can not find even a single intact thesis written by
Korean historian to support those articles.

I used to believe Korean people are different from those Japaneses. But the attacks
 and condemns in your newspapar ends my dream. I saw a self - center Korea.
If you can not agree with Chinese viewpoint toward GaoGouLi, just discussing,
why so many attacks and condemns. Can you force us to accept your viewpoint? No,never.

So,please, I advise you translate your historians’ papers into Chinese in
 a particular website, so that Chinese people can know what’s evidences you
have and what’s your experts in history are thinking. Also, you can find
many papers written by Chinese historians about GaoGouLi from internet,
 please translate them into Korean language.I believe Korean people’s
reactions will be very valuable after they have read those Chinese
historical papers.

Just remember that only when you do that, you can have the chance to
persuade Chinese people to believe your viewpoint in history.And only after
 you have persuaded Chinese people, the GaoGouLi history can be yours.

name
from HuBei Province of China



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 15:53

GaoGuoLi=Koguryo

Just remember that Koguryo was called "koguri" by Koreans, so the ri/li matches .  ryo was made by the Japanese during colonization.

If Korean historians only told Korean people their own viewpoints but ignore
what Chinese people are thinking, that’s must be a big tragedy. In the same
way, Chinese people need know more about your viewpoint. I read attacks
and condemns of Korean journalists in articles of chinese chosun.com
 almost everyday, but can not find even a single intact thesis written by
Korean historian to support those articles.

Well, that's why I'm here   I'll post some evidence that would hopefully inform you of the Korean perspective.

Also, you can find
many papers written by Chinese historians about GaoGouLi from internet,
 please translate them into Korean language.I believe Korean people’s
reactions will be very valuable after they have read those Chinese
historical papers.

I would, but I know like 30 basic chinese characters only  But linking some of these would help a lot.  I am willing to use my dictionary to decode these characters. 



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 19:23
Hannibal you are treating Koguryo as if it was a recent discovery...Koguryo has been considered a Korean Kingdom since at least the 1100's.  I would like it very much if you posted any proof the PRC has come up with to support it's claims.  THe only official reason they have released so far is that since Koguryo's ancient boundries were partially in the boundries of modern China, it is a Chinese nation....
Here are The Korean reasons

1.  Koreans carry on Koguryo's cultural heritage:  the martial arts of Taekkyun and Ssirum>>

2.  Koreans still speak parts of the language..ex: the word Sunbae meaning elder>>

3.  Koreans still venerate the kings, generals, and other such peoples as national heros.  Ex:  Emperor Gwanggetto and Gen. Ulji Munduk.  Go around in China and ask people who these people are, they won't have a clue.   But in one of the two Korea's an elementary school student can tell you much about the ancient kingdom and who these people are.>>

4.  If the people of Koguryo are of chinese han descent then so is Baekje and so are the people of Japan, as Baekje and Koguryo were founded by the same peoples, and many peoples from Baekje fled to Japan after Silla unified Korea.  So therefore are the Japanese also Chinese?>>

5.  it is basically a move for chinese government to gain an upperhand in the case that North Korea falls.  Koguryo consisted of much of southern manchuria and all of korea from the yalu to just south of seoul.  if NK were to fall the PRC would have a "good" reason to come in to North Korea and "stabilize" the region.  Just up till now, china was planning on building a dam that would have destroyed many of Koguryo's historical sites in china, but it has recently "had a change of heart" and has recently placed the sites under UNESCO.  After not really caring about the sites, one has to wonder with NK's recent weakness why china is suddenly interested>>

6.  China is being a hippocrate:  China recently rebuked Japan for its inaccurate history in their history textbooks, so why is china now distorting history.>>

7.  Koguryo has been considered a part of korean history from at least the 1100's if not earlier.  China has not laid a claim to the nation until recently, Why now?  see reason 6.>>

8.  China is basically doing what did to Tibet, Sinkiang, Manchuria, and Mongolia>>


China's official reason on why Koguryo is actually a chinese nation>>

1.  Because part of Koguryo's ancient politacal boundries now lie in modern day china, the nation of Koguryo must then be chinese.>>

 >>

Hannibal I understand as a Citizen of the PRC you must feel a little defensive about this matter, but hopefully I have shed some light upon this conterversial issue.

Yes Koreans are a bit extreme, but they feel that their whole cultural heritage is at stake.  Also, we have seen China's growing power and China has used the history card before, ie the "liberation" of tibet.  Koreans are genuinely freaked out by this.
The PRC recently deleted all Korean history on its website until the year 1945, what is the meaning of this act.
Some people state that just to be fair, Koguryo should be considered neither Korean or CHinese.   This solution is in fact not fair as the Chinese lose nothing and the Koreans lose a third of their historical heritage.

I hope this sheds a bit of light upon the Korean argument.

>>




-------------


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:37

I have read the same topic of your discussion in China History Forum.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture玄菟郡)of Han Dynasty,it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (乐浪郡), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 马韩、辰韩 and 弁韩. So, what do you think of Goguri

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

CHINESE HISTORIANS' PAPERS ON GOGURI

The Ethnic Migration and Amalgamation of  Ancient Korean Peninsula
公元前朝鲜半岛的民族迁徙与融合(important)
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/645.html

The Study on Goguri's  Origin
(1)从“别种”看高句丽族源
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/650.html

(2)高句丽族属溯源
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/653.html

The Study on Goguri's Five Tribes
高句丽五部研究
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/652.html

The Study on Regime Structure  of Goguri
高句丽地方统治结构研究
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/651.html

The Change of Relationship Between Sui Dynasty and Goguri(important)
隋朝与高丽关系的演变
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/362.html

夏至战国中国北方长城地带游牧文化带的形成过程(论纲)
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/727.html
http://www.eurasianhistory.com/data/articles/a02/728.html

高句丽与中国  Goguri and China(important)
http://www.51lw.com/article/education/292.htm

试论高句丽历史研究的几个问题 On several questions in the study of Goguri   http://www.cnwh.org/news/news.asp?news=503 - http://www.cnwh.org/news/news.asp?news=503

FANS' ARTICLES
离心的高句丽和向心的汉字
http://cn.mlcool.com/~mlcool/html/ns002124.htm

从历史看朝鲜和中国的边界争端
http://www.xttzw.com/article/shownews.asp?newsid=11449

再谈高丽与高句丽
http://cul.beelink.com.cn/20040707/1623308.shtml

 

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh.

http://chinese.chosun.com/big5/site/data/html_dir/2004/08/19 /20040819000002.html



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:45

In order to show the Chinese characters of those papers properly, please setup Microsoft simplified Chinese software at first.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:52

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh.

Those same people were capable of burning themselves up to cheer their soccer team.  You should understand that Koreans are like that  It's culture

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

Hannibal, can you please provide a source for reading your chinese typing machine?  It gets all broken up.  Thanx

The map

use http://www.imageshack.us - www.imageshack.us for uploading pictures from your C: drive.  If you jsut copy and paste, it would not work.



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 12:53
btw, all of eurasia link doesn't work...

-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:02

Originally posted by demon

btw, all of eurasia link doesn't work...

it's strange, but I can surf the websie...

The map is not very clear,but after all, we can see a map

The origin of the map is the book below:

The first map reflects the situation of this area during West Han Dynasty.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:05


-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 13:47

 

The situation during China's Three Kingdom Period(220 - 280). Please pay attention on the Goguri territory.

 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:08

The situation during West Jin Dynasty(256-317). Please pay attention on the Goguri territory.

 

 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:11

Ummm.  I'm having a hard time reading those blurry pictures.  Can you put a description of what's going on?

 



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 14:25
Originally posted by demon

Ummm.  I'm having a hard time reading those blurry pictures.  Can you put a description of what's going on?

 

I will describe it for you demon, before I give the detail, I must post each period's map. These maps can show you how Goguri developed from a tiny point of the northwestern China to a big Kingdom.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:09

East Jin and Sixteen Warring States period (317-420), in this period we can see that Goguri invaded and occupied the northern part of the  peninsula where once was Central Kingdom's prefectures.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:37

The situation in Nanbei Dynasty period (420 - 589 A.D.).  We can find that Chinese historians use the same color to show us that from then on Goguri(高句麗), Silla  (新罗)and BaiKje (百济) were all Korean peninsula countries thus began the three Kingdom period in Korean history.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 15:56

The situation in Sui Dynasty (581 - 618 A.D.)  Now,Goguri(高句麗), Silla  (新罗)and BaiKje (百济) were in war.

 

 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:18

The critical time :Tang Dynasty (618 - 907 A.D.)



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:33

The Five Dynasty Period(917-960). China fell into fragmentation again.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:45

Liao Dynasty and North Song Dynasty

Liao(907-1125)

North Song(960-1279)



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 16:51
Ok, I have finish my job today.  So tired......

-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:40
So what are the points of all of these maps...I even see maps of Barhae (Bohai), which is not pertaining to this discussion.

Also if I could read Chinese I'd argue with you about the points listed in your links...but seeing as I can not, I'll have to wait for someone to clarify this for me...
Good show with evidence though!
Perhaps you could write down a cohesive outline, much like mine hehe, and explain your argument slowly and concisely...Otherwise, unless Demon is adept at reading Chinese, I see this argument going no where soon.


-------------


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:56

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

So what are the points of all of these maps...I even see maps of Barhae (Bohai), which is not pertaining to this discussion.

Also if I could read Chinese I'd argue with you about the points listed in your links...but seeing as I can not, I'll have to wait for someone to clarify this for me...
Good show with evidence though!
Perhaps you could write down a cohesive outline, much like mine hehe, and explain your argument slowly and concisely...Otherwise, unless Demon is adept at reading Chinese, I see this argument going no where soon.

calm down,friend. As the infomation of the papers can flood me.I can only tell you slowly. And I'm not good at English,there is the curb. If I can, I want translate a paper for you within 30 minutes. But I can not... Maybe I need a whole days, heheh

Please examine the change of Goguri's territory in history, you can understand its' relationship between China and Modern Korea. 

see you...



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 18:31
Lol, maybe I'm just stupid, but I don't get anything from those maps....Perhaps you could explain

I do know the Koguryo was Downed by a joint Tang-Shinla invasion...Is that what you are saying?

If it is, I still don't get your point....Even if Koguryo was conquered by Tang, doesn't mean its a chinese country....

lol so confused.


-------------


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 19:42

I think this is what hannibal is saying:

Until 400's, Koguryo is coloured the same as Buyo and others of the north, differently from southern Koreans(Baekje, Silla, Kaya)

From 400's Koguryo is coloured the same as southern Korea(Baekje, Silla, Kaya)

possibly because Koguryo moved the capital south to Pyungyang in 427?

but I'm sorry hannibal.. I still don't get what you mean by Koguryo's relationship between China and modern Korea..

 



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 20:23

I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished.

Korean people are being crazy because the Chinese government is being crazy. What the Chinese project is doing is NOT new research on Koguryo. It is distorting what was already researched to fit its needs.

in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin.

 

about your letter:

you are asking Koreans to persuade the Chinese.

However, it should be the Chinese who should have persuaded the Koreans before making the claim. everyone in the world who knew of Koguryo knew it as part of Korean history. for Koreans, this was on the level of common sense.

It is not the Koreans who are forcing anything. It is the Chinese who are trying to force Koguryo history into Chinese history. If China wants to overturn the current knowledge, it is the one who has to prove it to the world. and it should have done that much before starting the propaganda.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture玄菟郡)of Han Dynasty,it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (乐浪郡), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 马韩、辰韩 and 弁韩. So, what do you think of Goguri

and before it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official, it was a tribe under the domination of local Gochosun official. and while under Gochosun, it remained content, but after fall of Gochosun, it kept fighting the Han commandaries..

the papers I listed below would help me to clarify our viewpoint

I don't think any of the Koreans here can read those..

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh

Jian island as you understood it, is actually land in southeastern Manchuria, Gando.

I have said this in another forum:

"how do you think all the Chosun ehnics ended up in Yanbian?

When Manchus moved into China, Chosun people settled there since 1700's.
Problem rose when Qing wanted the land back in 1880's, but Chosun kept its people and administration there.

I've included a map of Chosun drawn by a French missionary below

http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=3992823 - http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?act =Attach&type=post&id=3992823

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

So Gando actually does rightfully belong to Korea. it's just that it's been a long time, and Korea's divided into two, so the situation is too complicated to realistically expect the return of the territory.



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 03:20

[/quote]I think Korean people are too crazy when they facing the Koguryo question. Don't deny the fact please,  I find korean newspapers full of irresponsible reports about this question.  If you ask me what wrong thing China have done on Koguryo question, I can tell you only one thing: The Local government of JiAn city should not went so far before  the common academic study between China and Korea(this must be done) on the history of Koguryo have finished.[/quote]

Korean people are being crazy because the Chinese government is being crazy. What the Chinese project is doing is NOT new research on Koguryo. It is distorting what was already researched to fit its needs.

in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin.

Koguri(another Korean friend in this forum ask me use 'Koguri' instead of ' Koguryo',for he believe 'Koguryo' was a Japanese way of pronunciation). I understand you, but things are more complex than what you thought before. That's why I find this forum and want exchange viewpoints with Korean friends.

about your letter:

you are asking Koreans to persuade the Chinese.

However, it should be the Chinese who should have persuaded the Koreans before making the claim. everyone in the world who knew of Koguryo knew it as part of Korean history. for Koreans, this was on the level of common sense.

It is not the Koreans who are forcing anything. It is the Chinese who are trying to force Koguryo history into Chinese history. If China wants to overturn the current knowledge, it is the one who has to prove it to the world. and it should have done that much before starting the propaganda.

 In fact, before Goguri was founded as a kingdom in the northeastern territory (Xuan Tu Prefecture鐜勮彑閮)of Han Dynasty锛宨t was a tribe under the domination of local Han official for a long time. At that time, the Chosun Peninsula can be divided into two part, the north of it is Han Le Lang Prefecture (涔愭氮閮), ancestors of modern Korean people lived in the southern part of the peninsula, they are three native tribes 椹煩銆佽景闊 and 寮侀煩. So, what do you think of Goguri

and before it was a tribe under the domination of local Han official, it was a tribe under the domination of local Gochosun official. and while under Gochosun, it remained content, but after fall of Gochosun, it kept fighting the Han commandaries..

I know there was a Gochosun (鍙ゆ湞椴) before Han Dynasty ruled the northern part of the peninsula. But when we study the Gochosun's people and ruler, things will be very interesting. I advise you read the first paper which I listed above.  If you can not read Chinese, I will translate it later. But translation always cause  something loss during the process of cultural transmission. 

By the way, I was 'scared' by this article in Chosun.com which intend to "get back" Manchuria and Jian Island in a surey among Korean young men. About half of them say "yes, we shoud 'get back' the two place" heheh

Jian island as you understood it, is actually land in southeastern Manchuria, Gando.

I have said this in another forum:

"how do you think all the Chosun ehnics ended up in Yanbian?

When Manchus moved into China, Chosun people settled there since 1700's.
Problem rose when Qing wanted the land back in 1880's, but Chosun kept its people and administration there.

I've included a map of Chosun drawn by a French missionary below

in 1900's, Japan takes over diplomacy of Korea, and in 1909, signs the Gando(Jiandao) agreement with Qing, in which the region is given to Qing in return for some previledges in Manchuria, including the right to put down a railroad there.

after 1910, when Japan annexed Korea, independence movement moved into that region, because although it was now part of Qing, most of the people were Korean.

with Japan's surrender in 1945, all of its gains in territories and all the treaties it made is cancelled, including the 1909 Gando agreement."

So Gando actually does rightfully belong to Korea. it's just that it's been a long time, and Korea's divided into two, so the situation is too complicated to realistically expect the return of the territory.

As for Gando and Korean minornity nationality in Yanbian, I have read some books about the two issues,even  find some records in Korean and Japanese in books. Very interesting.

You know,the land of Manchuria is very fertile, many Koreans immigrate to there  due to all kind of causes since 17th century. But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th.There are record to the time.As for the emigration earlier to the time, they all naturalized (褰掑寲). That's ture.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion.

 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 05:34

I recommend you download a software which can trasfer between many different Chinese characters no matter simplified or traditional Chinese. Then you can see the papers at least.

  http://down1.tyfo.com/down/soft/pc/apply/chinese/web/file/nj win188.exe



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 10:47

Awww.  Thanx hannibal.  Now I can read what is on the website.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion

You mean, decendants of Barhe(Bohai) and Goguri(Gao Gu li) are not Koreans?  I thought that was the topic of this discussion....

But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th

Most 100% koreans (excluding Goguri and Barhe decendant population due to their unclarity on defining their ethnicity) came there because they were prisoners during ming-qing conflict (choson sent reinforcements but many were captured), or to fight Japanese during colonization, where boundaries were not well defined.

-----------------------

BTW, the eurasia webpage works but its got so many words I never have seen before   Is it simplified Chinese?



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 11:46
Originally posted by demon

Awww.  Thanx hannibal.  Now I can read what is on the website.

I also find, ancient Korean people's immigration to China can be traced earlier than 17 century.But that's not the topic of our discussion

You mean, decendants of Barhe(Bohai) and Goguri(Gao Gu li) are not Koreans?  I thought that was the topic of this discussion....

I'm not refer to Borhe and Goguri,what I mean are those immigrate to China later than Borhe and Goguri, but earlier than 17th century.

Originally posted by demon

But Korean minornity nationality in China today are desendants of  Korean emigration immigrate since twenties in 19th

Most 100% koreans (excluding Goguri and Barhe decendant population due to their unclarity on defining their ethnicity) came there because they were prisoners during ming-qing conflict (choson sent reinforcements but many were captured), or to fight Japanese during colonization, where boundaries were not well defined.

Yes,demon,I have read what you said in books. From the foundation of Qing Dynasty to 1820s, near 200 years passed. Just think what happened to those immigration.The answer is ---Naturalisation.

In fact, 99% Korean minornity in YanBian nowadays were descendents who immigrated to China after 1820s .

Originally posted by demon

BTW, the eurasia webpage works but its got so many words I never have seen before   Is it simplified Chinese?

Yes,it's in simplified Chinese. but the software has a function which can transfer simplified Chinese into traditional Chinese if you want.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:28
What is your point Hannibal?  Not to be rude or anything, I still don't understand what you are trying to say, and as I cannot read or comprehend Chinese, I won't be able to understand from your papers. Could you please state clearely and concisely what you are trying to say?  THanks

-------------


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:54
Ummm..  That NJstar program....I don't really know how it works... All words now turn into squares

-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 13:57

I was distracted by I/eye's remarks about Gando(Jian dao) today. So I read  inorder to know more about it.  I will post some info in my reading ...

I will give my point  on Gugori soon  Please be paitent...



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 14:05

Originally posted by demon

Ummm..  That NJstar program....I don't really know how it works... All words now turn into squares

Click like the above pic, and you will have many choice. Just try,you will find one choice can make see the characters.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 17:12

hannibal..

it was nice of you to colour your post so we can easily see which part is the quote and which part is your comment. thank you for that.

now, how about actually posting valid comments?

you said Koreans are crazy, I responded by saying the Chinese government was the crazy one. then you said something about pronounciation of Koguryo/ri?

you said Koreans need to persuade the Chinese. I responded by saying it is the Chinese that need to persuade the world. you didn't even say anything to this.

you said Koguryo was under Han power, I responded by saying it was under Gochosun before that, and that it liked being under Gochosun but hated being under Han. but you told me to go read something about Gochosun's people and leaders which I already said I couldn't

you told me about fear of Koreans claiming southern manchuria. I responded by saying it's not all of southern manchuria, just Gando, and told you the perfectly lawful claim by the Koreans. then you said stuff about when the Koreans moved there?

and you have yet to tell us your point about Koguryo

do you see the problem?

sure you might be distracted, but you can still give us one-line comments with just the jist of your idea...

so I can tell you you are wrong and save you the trouble of looking up BS



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:26

Hey I/eye,

    You wrote, "in fact, China didn't give a damn about Koguryo until the last few years. Koguryo historic sites were left to become ruins for over a millenium, and only after China started claiming Koguryo as Chinese history, did preservation process begin."

    You're quite right, none of this is research.  I might be wrong, but I doubt that any of these ruins were unknown (after all, they are in broad daylight.)  They weren't found after archeological research.  They are not collecting data.  They are interpreting data.  This is nothing new, of course; what they are doing with Koguryo isn't much different from what they're doing with Taiwan, Tibet, and Turkestan.  When a political agenda of such magnetude is so obvious, every sensible people should be doubtful in approaching such "researches."

    The Korean "researchers" aren't any better.  Of all things, they rely on interpreting legendary and mythological accounts to reinterpret history.  In an age when the historicity of Jesus and Confucius is under question, in an age when ancient documents and ancient texts are under skeptical scrutiny, these "researchers" are desperate enough to turn to, of all things, legends and myths and try to prove history, to prove that such figures as Chiu were national heroes.  The hype that result from all this is itself a clear indication that we need to take these "researches" with a grain salt.  Many grains of salt.  This debate is really between two groups of esteem-deprived nationalists.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 18:33

 these "researchers" are desperate enough to turn to, of all things, legends and myths and try to prove history, to prove that such figures as Chiu were national heroes

Hmmmm.  It's like saying Pang gu stuff is **** and you forbid people from learning that.  It also means that your traditional custom to pray for fortune is wrong and you abolish it.  My point is that legends and myths are heritage that reflects your ethnic.  The way Greek god mythology reflected upon greek society.  Remember, a country without past has no future.

Koguryo was under Han power

Han died before Koguryo existed



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:02
Yea, Han did die before Koguryo even existed....

Also Meng Tzu, although I agree with most of the things you say, I have to question this.  Yes the runis are in broad day light for all to see and say wow, there they are...But until recently the PRC was involved in a project involving the building of a damn that if carried through would have totally destroyed some of the sites...and then they had a change of heart...Koreans are asking why? in a suspicious, freaked out, I remember Tibet sort of way.

But other wise, I am once again enthralled by your wisdom.


-------------


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:08

Hey demon,

    Let's be clear about who you're addressing.  I never said Koguryo was under Han's power.  If someone else said it, name him.

    you wrote, "Hmmmm.  It's like saying Pang gu stuff is **** and you forbid people from learning that."

    That stuff is **** if facticity is concerned.  There's no proof for Pangu.  I find the claim that Huangdi is the ancestor of all Chinese equally groundless.  And you are attacking a strawman here: I never said that one should be forbidden to learn it.  But to believe in its facticity just because one wants to out of nationalist zeal is delusional.  If it's rational to believe whatever we want, I believe superman exists.

     you wrote, "It also means that your traditional custom to pray for fortune is wrong and you abolish it."

     More strawman.  For one thing, you're way behind in the game: the Communists already abolished a lot of traditional customs.  For another thing, you're treating something entirely different from what I'm discussing.  I believe in assigning value to things.  We can applaud people holding up national symbols that are legendary and mythological.  If you had read my post, that is clearly not what I'm critiquing.  What I critique is, rather, the insistence that these things are true -- and using legends and myths as premises and proofs for what is objectively true.  I'll discuss more about this below.

    You wrote, "My point is that legends and myths are heritage that reflects your ethnic.  The way Greek god mythology reflected upon greek society.  Remember, a country without past has no future."

    You're absoulutely right.  But the nationalists are doing more than this.  You yourself claim that you believe Chiu existed: on what grounds?  Of course, I have no contest if it's a matter of faith for you: a lot of people are religious for little rational reason.  What is disturbing is the insistence that these things were real.  There's nothing wrong (in fact it is a good thing) in believing what gives one hope and identity; to conclude that it is therefore true, however, is nonsensical.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:17

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    The obvious answer is that China is seeking redefine its national identity.  China and Korea are going in opposite direction here: China is trying to establish a multi-national identity, whereas Koreans (at least the general population) are ever more insistent on a "pure blood" type of nationality.  The problem, however, is that it appears many Chinese do not understand how this multi-national identity works: I cannot say for sure, but it appears that the tacit premise for the Chinese is that Han = Chinese.  The result is a double-speak: "Chinese is multi-ethnic, but, well, it's really Han-dominant anyway."  Now if it seems like my answer has nothing to do with your question, see my recent reply to "hey Koreans" in the "Jian Do / Gando" thread.  In brief, the syllogism for China's rationale goes like this: Koreans Chinese are Chinese; Koguryo is Korean heritage; therefore, Koguryo is Korean Chinese heritage; therefore, Koguryo is Chinese heritage.  Surprisingly enough, if we can manage to define these terms properly, neither Chinese nor Koreans should have any contention here: in the same way that Native American heritage is given an honored place among the many factors that contributed to US history, we can say that Korean culture contributed to China's history.  Problem is: what do people really recognize to be "Chinese?"  What do the Chinese themselves recognize?  If they are stuck with the "Han-dominant" mindset, they are not very different from the White supremacists of America.  To add to the confusion: Korean nationalists themselves are resistant toward inclusivity.  Would they want to be honored as participants in China's history?  Would they see this as a token of respect or a dubious effort to be subsumed under another culture?  You see, the outcome of this debate is not up to any amount of archeological finding or textual analysis of historical documents and texts; it's really up to what attitude we carry into the dialogue.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 20:40
You're right again!   My nationalism has kinda of played down in the past few days, but its been flaring up again because of What Hannibal is saying...Hanibal is this just a misunderstanding? or is there really a clash of ideas?

-------------


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 20:45

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I think it's best to leave Hannibal be.  I've seen the likes of him: busting out loads and loads of "documents" (such action is called spamming) that supposedly make his point (but he can never really tell us what the point is.)  I just didn't expect my own people would do that too.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 21:09

MengTsu.

about that Chiu as Korean national hero..

the "research" for that happened during the Japanese colonization period, when the Japanese were trying to shrink down Korean history.

the Korean nationalist view of history was born as a reactionary theory to the Japanese Imperialist-made theory.

and it's gaining popularity again as a reactionary measure because of enjoyjapan(Korean site where Korean and Japanese is translated instantly.. it's a big battlefield, really..) and the exposure to Japanese Imperialist view through it, Japan's claim to Dokdo Isles, the Chinese government's claims on Koguryo, etc.

I, and many other Koreans do take it with many grains of salt.

at any rate, it is not government-backed, it is not being exposed to people at national historic sites, and it is not being taught it schools. that's the difference.

South Korea has a very advanced telecommunications field, and more than 3/5th of the population is on-line. this is the reason the nationalist view is easily accessed. I hope this clears your misunderstanding.



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 21:15

Hey I/eye,

    Thanks, that did ease the disturbance a bit.  I'd add that seemingly many Chinese are not aware of the "China claimed Koguryo" bit (the Chinese who come online in this forum are quite a rarity.)  If Koguryo is "Kao Ke Li," then it's common sense that it has something to do with "Kao Li," which every informed Chinese understands to be ancient Korea.

    It seems that Korean nationalism is popular among the people but not with the government (something that I've noticed: I give the SK government props for being rational in the dialogue; they understand the priority,) while Chinese nationalism is from top down (sadly, more and more Mainlanders are becoming very nationalistic.)

    China is trying to become America.  In many respects China is succeeding: it has learned the Fascist politics of America.  Of course, China's still an amateur: it still sounds like the overt nationalism of Nazi Germany.  America and Europe are the ones that mastered the art of using ethnicity as a political tool.

Peace,

Michael

8-29-2004



Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 02:19
Originally posted by I/eye

hannibal..

it was nice of you to colour your post so we can easily see which part is the quote and which part is your comment. thank you for that.

now, how about actually posting valid comments?

you said Koreans are crazy, I responded by saying the Chinese government was the crazy one. then you said something about pronounciation of Koguryo/ri?

you said Koreans need to persuade the Chinese. I responded by saying it is the Chinese that need to persuade the world. you didn't even say anything to this.

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise.

Originally posted by I/eye

you said Koguryo was under Han power, I responded by saying it was under Gochosun before that, and that it liked being under Gochosun but hated being under Han. but you told me to go read something about Gochosun's people and leaders which I already said I couldn't

You couldn't ? Maybe you have not the slightest desire to explore it.For you firmly believe what you have been told by your newspapers or any other media. In fact, Goguri Kingdom was founded after the Gochosun defeated by Han dynasty, so will  Goguri liked being under a country didn't in existence?

I also said I will translate a paper before long ( about the contuning amalgamation in ancient Chosun peninsula before Han Dynasty) .Soon, you could read it. I welcome discussion about the paper.

Originally posted by I/eye

you told me about fear of Koreans claiming southern manchuria. I responded by saying it's not all of southern manchuria, just Gando, and told you the perfectly lawful claim by the Koreans. then you said stuff about when the Koreans moved there?

and you have yet to tell us your point about Koguryo

do you see the problem?

I do not think your evidences about Gendo is convictive. 

The French who drawn the map did not know the history between China and Korea at all.

Originally posted by I/eye

sure you might be distracted, but you can still give us one-line comments with just the jist of your idea...

so I can tell you you are wrong and save you the trouble of looking up BS

I will give my points later, my friend



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 04:57

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise

right now, everyone in the forum except you thinks that Koguryo is Korean history. so it is you who must persuade us.

you can start by actually telling us your point. MengTsu did say you never will.. maybe he's right?

You couldn't ? Maybe you have not the slightest desire to explore it

do you want me to look up every single character?

For you firmly believe what you have been told by your newspapers or any other media.

I knew of Koguryo before any media told me about it. in fact, before even my school taught me about it. and by the way, I don't believe in any media 100%

In fact, Goguri Kingdom was founded after the Gochosun defeated by Han dynasty, so will Goguri liked being under a country didn't in existence?

Koguryo Tribe was there before Gochosun was defeated. along with Buyo Tribe

I do not think your evidences about Gendo is convictive. 
The French who drawn the map did not know the history between China and Korea at all.

then you should have said so before. of course, you are wrong, as all the dates and events are factual, and the Frenchman not knowing the history makes him more reliable, because he will only see what is there



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:15

Hannibal, if you want to translate, please do on a new thread  Or it will get too messy

If they are stuck with the "Han-dominant" mindset, they are not very different from the White supremacists of America.  To add to the confusion: Korean nationalists themselves are resistant toward inclusivity. 

These nationalists are not just persistent braggets.  They at least try to find evidence through everything.  They are trying stuffs rationally.  They deserve a look before we leap on.  Or at least I think



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:32

Hey demon,

    "These nationalists are not just persistent braggets.  They at least try to find evidence through everything.  They are trying stuffs rationally.  They deserve a look before we leap on.  Or at least I think"

    Three things.  First of all, my comment quoted in your post has nothing to do with nationalist persistence -- it clearly stated in explicit wording, "resistence towards inclusivity."  Secondly, what's a bragget?  Thirdly, I know they are trying -- they are trying too hard, in fact.  They are looking for things in the wrong places -- they are trying to prove objective reality through legends and myths.  Now I'm not talking about the Koguryo case here, and I'm not demeaning the symbolic value of legends and myths (I think I already covered that.)  I'm saying it's not rational at all to take a premise as its conclusion: "we believe in the legends and myths, therefore they are true" -- that's a major logical flaw.  I must say that for trying so hard, they didn't get very far, and they didn't try very rationally.

    The Koguryo question is even more pointless.  There's no longer any research of facts, no longer any need of evidence.  The debate, as I've said ad nauseum, is not about facts, it's about interpretation.  We have a big TV at home.  That's a fact.  Do I or my brother (when he comes home) have a greater claim to it?  That's interpretation.  No one here denies the fact of Koguryo.  But no one can prove the categorical interpretations about it either.  It's because "China" and "Korea" are definitive constructs.  They mean whatever people define them to be.  Definition is a given, you can't prove it, you don't have to prove it.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 05:51

Secondly, what's a bragget? 

Slang for those who doesn't want to accept their contraditions

"resistence towards inclusivity.
The problem is with the word "inclusivity".  I do not find them totally inclusively

I must say that for trying so hard, they didn't get very far, and they didn't try very rationally.

Maybe I should start a new thread about the "Korean Nationalist" perspective (If I've got time)

We have a big TV at home.  That's a fact.  Do I or my brother (when he comes home) have a greater claim to it?  That's interpretation.

There is a compromise to be done .  The problem about Koguryi is that China suddenly makes this BS without warning.  In the era where Kim Jong ill is in his 60's and 1 Million PRC army is placed over the Korean border.  In the era in which China is expanding into Myanmmar.

Koreans know it by history.  Whenever China got rich, it were his border nations who always payed the price.  This has been certain with Tang, Sui, Qing, and many more.

It's because "China" and "Korea" are definitive constructs
China didn't have to start a new construct



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:03

Maybe we should persuade each other,if you think there is no compromise

right now, everyone in the forum except you thinks that Koguryo is Korean history. so it is you who must persuade us.

you can start by actually telling us your point. MengTsu did say you never will.. maybe he's right?

 

Till now, I haven't told anyother my countrymen the address of the forum. For I believe too many angry people here will make the forum in a status of terrible chaos. So, i am minority nationality here and then I am wrong before I say anything? Right? 

In the same way, if a part of a people immigrate to a place of another country, one day, their population exceed local people,  then, according to your NUMBER FIRST logic, the place must be theirs and no longer belong to its original host. Is that's right?

If the right of everything only depended on THE NUMBER OF A POPULATION, heheh, Chinese People will be the most rightful ...

I have posted an article in hybrid language . (Korean, and Chinese) , for I got some important information (about half of the content, for there are Chinese characters in it)about the Gendo problem. Why not read, or give it to one of your friend who can read it .

 Yes, you wanted my viewpoint and I said I will give you my point. Never? Kidding? One week is enough. Those papers I listed ,you say you can not read  So,I will translate some of them.For that's why I am here.My point again?  I have said more than one times in different post:I'm not good at English. So, I need time.

As for those papers , I do not want use it as a weapon to force somebody accept a different viewpoint. I just want them know, there is a different viewpoint. If it possible, I want know what do they think  of another side of a coin.

[/QUOTE]



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:04

Hey demon,

    ""The problem is with the word "inclusivity".  I do not find them totally inclusively"

    You're not even making sense anymore.  I was saying that Korean nationalists are resistent towards inclusivity: that is they try to establish an exclusive nationality, not a multi-ethnic one.  You don't seem to understand what that means at all.

    "Maybe I should start a new thread about the "Korean Nationalist" perspective (If I've got time)"

    If you really have to, I suppose.  If it's gonna be a bunch of garbage about how Confucius is Korean and how Samarai came from Korea, then may be you should save your breathe.  We've been over this stuff gazillion times, and not one of your fellow Korean on this board buy them, (may be except that Salubi bit, I really have no clue what that heck that's all about.)  But if you really have to, go ahead.  I don't think I have to wait for my turn to tear it to shreds: many here, Koreans or not, might get to it before I do.

    "There is a compromise to be done .  The problem about Koguryi is that China suddenly makes this BS without warning.  In the era where Kim Jong ill is in his 60's and 1 Million PRC army is placed over the Korean border.  In the era in which China is expanding into Myanmmar."

    You're taking two issues simultaneously.  If I haven't made it abundantly clear, the PRC is full of crap.  So I don't see why you're bringing this up as though I'm arguing in their favor.  What I'm arguing isn't that either side is right: but that both sides are employing the faulty methodologies.  It's like two people playing a game of tennis by kicking it like a soccer ball.  It looks like they are on to something but look a lil bit longer they look like idiots.

    "China didn't have to start a new construct"

    Once again, let me make it abundantly clear that PRC is full of crap.  No one here would deny the possibility of a conspiracy, and certainly no one would deny that PRC is ambitious and expansionist.  So let's gets our issues clear.  It's not whether China or Korea has the right to make definitive constructs.  The point is that it is a definitive construct in question: the old isn't anymore true than the new one.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 06:05
Originally posted by demon

Hannibal, if you want to translate, please do on a new thread  Or it will get too messy

If they are stuck with the "Han-dominant" mindset, they are not very different from the White supremacists of America.  To add to the confusion: Korean nationalists themselves are resistant toward inclusivity. 

These nationalists are not just persistent braggets.  They at least try to find evidence through everything.  They are trying stuffs rationally.  They deserve a look before we leap on.  Or at least I think

I will demon Thx for your advice.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 08:00
Originally posted by MengTzu

    The Koguryo question is even more pointless.  There's no longer any research of facts, no longer any need of evidence.  The debate, as I've said ad nauseum, is not about facts, it's about interpretation.  We have a big TV at home.  That's a fact.  Do I or my brother (when he comes home) have a greater claim to it?  That's interpretation.  No one here denies the fact of Koguryo.  But no one can prove the categorical interpretations about it either.  It's because "China" and "Korea" are definitive constructs.  They mean whatever people define them to be.  Definition is a given, you can't prove it, you don't have to prove it.

Thanks Meng-Tzu.  That's the same thing I express so much less elegantly in another post.  Koguryo is Koguryo.  It's neither China or Corea.  The same time it's both China and Corea.  It can say it to be what ever it is.  But it is just Koguryo and nothing more.



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 12:14
Ok then, hansouix, with your logical reasoning, Shinla is just Shinla, nothing more, Josun is just Josun, nothing more, in fact the Korean states doesn't exist until 1948, in fact my people do not have a history until 1948, much like it states on the official PRC website.  In fact the CHinese don't have a history until the PRC was founded.  Because Ming is simply Ming, Shang is simply SHang, and Tang is simply Tang.

BTW demon if your gonna try and prove that crap about Ssaulabi and Confucius, don't, but if you are gonna satirize Korean nationalist, go for it.


-------------


Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:41

Well, unfortunately Gubukjanggoon (˙盢瓁?)  that isn't my point at all.

For Shinla and Josun and Baeje, they were located squarely in the present day Corea.  And were part of this Corea identity ever since its unification.  But for Kugoryo, it was in between China and Corea.  Before the arrival of Kugoryo, that area has been part of China since the 縋 Yan kingdom of the warring states.  Then Han dynasty set a  few countys over in that area. 

It'd be like the Hungarians saying the Huns weren't a apart of Chinese history because the Hun weren't Chinese.  I think someone else said in a post.  There are plenty of records to prove Kugoryo wasn't Chinese.  But also there's lack of records that prove Kugoryo was Corean.  They did occupy north of COrea for sometime.  They also occupied part of Chinese for sometime.

If you are going to deney all that, and just say it has historically been Corean and always have, then what difference is there between Corea and what the PRC?  It would be just like what MengTzu said, they are both wrong on this Kugoryo thing.

In fact the people of Kugoryo probably came from somewhere else, and weren't part of the Chinese or Coreans make up back then.  That is why their were so agressive.  They did eventually became Chinese and Corean.  That is why Kugoryo is in the history of both nations.



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:51

In fact the people of Kugoryo probably came from somewhere else, and weren't part of the Chinese or Coreans make up back then.  That is why their were so agressive.  They did eventually became Chinese and Corean.  That is why Kugoryo is in the history of both nations.

Old Choson- Puyo- Koguri.  They decended one after another.  Therefore Koguri= Old Choson= Coreans.  Even if that's wrong, Koguri- Kori and Kori= Korean and thus Koguri= Corean.

If you really have to, I suppose.  If it's gonna be a bunch of garbage about how Confucius is Korean and how Samarai came from Korea, then may be you should save your breathe.
\

Confucious= Korean?  Samurai=Korean?

I never heard that stuff....where did you get that from?

-----------------------

Enough of this.  Let's start a new thread, shall we?

 



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:55
Koguryo has been considered a part of Korean history since Korean history was written down...Yes, I do not deny that it can be considered a part of Chinese history, but when the PRC is telling tour guides in that area to stop even mentioning Koguryo as even a part of Korean history, this after not even considering Koguryo as a part of Chinese history after many years, I think you can see why we are so angry.  Koguryo can definitely be a part of Chinese history, but when CHina is trying to take it as its own it is disturbing.  also, by your reasoning, can the different periods of English history and french history be actually considered their respective histories, as Charlamange wasn't french in the modern sense.

BTW I can't read what you put in parenthases next to my username when you addressed me...is it chinese characters? Because it may help you to know my name means turtle General...I hope that helps


-------------


Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 18:03

hehe, turtle general huh?  I got the general part right

Gu is the turtle part? Or Gubuk together is the turtle part?

Gu is also the Taiwanese dialect for Tutle.

Does buk mean steps?



Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 18:07
Originally posted by demon

Old Choson- Puyo- Koguri.  They decended one after another.  Therefore Koguri= Old Choson= Coreans.  Even if that's wrong, Koguri- Kori and Kori= Korean and thus Koguri= Corean.

Hmm... let's see.  After Soong it was the Mangolian dynasty and then after that is the Ming dynasty, and after that is the Qing dynasty...

Therefore Soong = Mangolian = Ming = Qing.  Which proves  Han chinese = Mongolian = Manchurian?...

man, I hope that's not the case....



Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 18:18

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    You're absolutely right Gubukjanggoon.  Han is no more Chinese than it isn't.  Similarly, Charlemagne's empire is no more French than German.  That's the whole point of my painstaking demonstration that nation is a social construct.  Just because some kingdoms existed in the same land a long time ago, and just because some of the lineages of the people of that time passed down to us, don't make us them unequivocally.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 18:19

Hey demon,

    The claim that Koreans invented the Han script is just as ridiculous as the other stuff (such as claim that Confucius was Korean) that I mentioned.  But please go ahead and start a thread.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:48
ACtually I took the word Gubooki...and just took the Gubook from it

Gubooki means turtle, i think the word Gubook by itself means turtle too...what can I say, I have a turtle fetish!


-------------


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 22:14

So, i am minority nationality here and then I am wrong before I say anything? Right? 

I never said you are wrong, I said you need to convince us with your case.

I have posted an article in hybrid language . (Korean, and Chinese) , for I got some important information (about half of the content, for there are Chinese characters in it)about the Gendo problem. Why not read, or give it to one of your friend who can read it .

first of all, the hybrid article was posted in another thread, not this one, and you never directed me to it. even so, I can't read that one anyway, and no friend of mine can. the korean part says things like "of, already, concerning, and" etc.

Yes, you want my viewpoint and I said I will give you my point. Never? Kidding? One week is enough. Those papers I listed ,you say you can not read  So,I will translate some of them.For that's why I am here.My point again?  I have said more than one times in different post:I'm not good at English. So, I need time.

you don't have to tell us your point along with all your proof. just tell us your point first, then say "proof soon" like demon does so many times.

For Shinla and Josun and Baeje, they were located squarely in the present day Corea.  And were part of this Corea identity ever since its unification.  But for Kugoryo, it was in between China and Corea.  Before the arrival of Kugoryo, that area has been part of China since the 縋 Yan kingdom of the warring states.  Then Han dynasty set a  few countys over in that area. 

Koguryo started in the area along the northen border of present day North Korea, and were part of the Korea identity ever since the very idea of the identity was created(Koryo times) Before the arrival of Koguryo, that area was part of Korea ever since the Kochosun or other Korean kingdoms, depending on who you ask, for few centuries to few millenia. the Han commandaries were a source of influence, and I won't deny that, but it was not the actual source of origin of Koguryo, and compared to the total history of Korea, the time under the Han commandaries passed by pretty quickly.

But also there's lack of records that prove Kugoryo was Corean.  They did occupy north of COrea for sometime.  They also occupied part of Chinese for sometime.

you can't use territory to determine who the people are. you need to look at the people, and things like customs, such as the heating system which passed down from Koguryo to Balhae/Koryo to Chosun to some area of present day North and South Korea, but was never found in China.

In fact the people of Kugoryo probably came from somewhere else, and weren't part of the Chinese or Coreans make up back then.  That is why their were so agressive.  They did eventually became Chinese and Corean.  That is why Kugoryo is in the history of both nations.

the Koguryo people came from Gochosun region, and were part of the Koreans make up back then. they were aggressive because their land was not fertile, and there were the Han commandaries nearby.

the Koguryo people became China and Korean but those that became Chinese lost their Koguryo characteristics and naturalized to China. those that became Korean claimed continuing Koguryo and continued with Koguryo customs etc. That is why Koguryo is Korean history not Chinese.

oh and you claim Koguryo history is both Korean and Chinese history, which isn't as outrageous, but the Chinese government's stance has gone from "only Korean" to "both Korean and Chinese" to "only Chinese" history recently. keep up with the times. that's the source of the anger. that's what makes it not-so-silly.

oh and hannibal, the Chinese government has cut chinese.chosun.com and some other sites concerning Koguryo from accessing from China.. Chinese government wants to hide something from its people, eh?



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: hansioux
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 23:46

Wow, I/eye... you replied to different people in the same post *_*

Anywy, I'll answer my part.  First... you didn't talk about the Yan state during warring period of the East Chou dynasty.  (You know, the one state that sent 禷 (Jing-Ke) to assasinate the King of Qing, future first emperor of China).  It was at the same place where the Han commandaries were at.  Even a little futher to the north.

To your "you can't use territory to determine who the people are. you need to look at the people... customs" comment.  I can't completely agree with you.  It is like saying the present day Egyptians are nothing like the ancient Egyptians.  So they are not the same people.  Hense the pyrimids weren't built the be anscestors of present day Egyptians.  That can be applied to the Latin Americans and many austronesian cultures. 

The fact is, there is perhaps bias in how you determine who is Corean.  Your assumptions is if these people shares thing that only Coreans has then they are Corean.  However there are thing the Kugoryos shares with the Chinese as well.  But since they share things with Corean, so those Chinese things doesn't matter?

I don't know...  well, at least I am learning something everytime I come on this forum.



Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 23:55

Hey I/eye,

    Nope, custom is also a shaky basis for defining a people.  There isn't a culture today that isn't somewhat hybrid: if there's one, that culture has isolated itself and has never been known.  If every culture is hybrid, then it's impossible to use it to define a monolithic people.  The fact that many Asian countries have McDonalds don't make them American (Hansioux, sorry for stealing your example.)  Some who persist in this weak argument would say, "well, the majority and central part of X's culture is original" and such.  But then on what anthropological or mathematical formula do we base such a definition on?  So I also challenge your notion that culture defines a people.  I gave this challenge to Gubukjanggoon in another forum, and let me give this challenge to everyone: give me a basis for defining a nation other than collective agreement and political imlementation, anything.  I can show you that none of them works.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 00:40

Wow, I/eye... you replied to different people in the same post *_*

and i'll do it again here, to reply to both you and MengTzu

Yan was not where the Han commandaries were.
It was located on the northern part of present day Hebei province, which is a little bit west of Gochosun's or Koguryo's territory
it can't be in the same place because Yan and Gochosun existed at the same time.

sorry if you both understood my statement to mean "same customs = same people"
what I wanted to say was that we need to look at the people rather than territory, and custom is one of the things to look at when looking at the people.
and when we do look at the people, Koguryo in China adapted, while Koguryo in Korea mixed in.



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 01:17

Hey I/eye,

    I understood your argument.  The problem is that custom is not sufficient indicator of what keep a people the "same people" as if it's a temporally continous entity.

Peace,

Michael

8-3-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:19
What do we need to look at then...
For all of time Koguryo has been considered Korean but now since tHE PRC is starting to claim it do we Koreans have to give up part of our heritage?  WHy is this, Just because the PRC suddenly wants a bit of the action we have to give up a third of what makes us Korean?  This is what I don't understand.  You don't just suddenly become a descendant of a people.  Koreans have been claiming this ancestry for hundreds of years.  Its in every school book around the globe, even in Chinese school books, but now the PRC wants to claim that KOguryo was a CHinese country, so now we have to share?  Koreans might as well claim the Han dynasty as a Korean one, because lo and behold part of it was in present day KOrea so it must be korean...and even if it isn't CHina has to share.


-------------


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 13:40

Originally posted by hansioux

Hmm... let's see.  After Soong it was the Mangolian dynasty and then after that is the Ming dynasty, and after that is the Qing dynasty...

Therefore Soong = Mangolian = Ming = Qing.  Which proves  Han chinese = Mongolian = Manchurian?...

man, I hope that's not the case....

1 difference.  Korean people never called Koguryo peoople as "barbarians"the way Han ethnicity called mongols and Manchus "barbarians"

The claim that Koreans invented the Han script is just as ridiculous as the other stuff (such as claim that Confucius was Korean) that I mentioned.  But please go ahead and start a thread.

I'm not the type who claims Koreans did everything.  I might claim "Dong Yi"did however(btw, I won't claim all Dong Yis are Korean because there are some Chinese Dong Yi and stuff)

Originally posted by hansioux

However there are thing the Kugoryos shares with the Chinese as well.  But since they share things with Corean, so those Chinese things doesn't matter?

Hmmm.  I watched the Chinese propaganda about Koguri.  There was a chinese background, chinese instrument as background music claimed it theirs(minor ethnic country) BUT NO CREDIT TO KOREANS  You consider that "sharing" equally? 



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 13:59

 

About the Korean pronunciation  of some Chinese characters in my translation.Please give me the Korean pronunciation of these characters.

   Thank you~

(2)Some important questions for Korean friends.

I read something about (Goguri's view toward the world under sky) on the web of Chosun.com.(天下观 Tian Xia Guan)I remember a Korean scholar said something about Goguri's view toward the world under sky was different from China.Can you give me some detail?

How do you feel the function of War in the process of producing a People.Is it a normal and  legitimate method of producing a people in ancient times?

list three biggest  features in Goguri's culture(in your eye).

list three biggest  features in Chinese culture(in your eye).

What is the biggest importance of Goguri history to modern Korea in your eye?

What kind of people ancient Han people before Tang Dynasty is (including Tang)in your eye ?

Can you tell me Korean scholars'  formal viewpoint about the origin of Goguri. Tank you!

 

It's 3am in Chinasleep now

 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:09

hey people , long time no see :>

well, i say something!

Any people would better not to use conceptions of modern days to refer the histories of ancient times.

There was no conception of "modern nation" in "Chinese Culture Circle" in ancient times. In ancient east asian world, especially in places where people adopted confucian ideas. Those peoples would think there is only one superior lord in the known-world, that would be the emperors of "the middle kingdom".

Why chinese think GaoGouli was their own? In my words, its like this:

1. Culture: the mainstream culture of all Gaogouli, Silla, Baiji/Paki states was decented from chinese culture. Of course it added its regional aspects just like other parts of china did. Gogouli used chinese system of writing, ceremony,and philosophies of daolism, buddlalism, confucialism. Now korean just simply went to deny it/they are/were chinese culture countries.

2. People: Although some fled to korean peninsula, but "the mainstream peoples" of Gaogouli later all became chinese of northeast china. according to documents of tang dynasty, roughly several "hundreds of thousands" of people moved from the land of former Gaogouli to inland China.

3.Land: the most part of land of former Gaogouli has been china's/chinese for more than 1300 years. The time is Longer than the lasting time of gaogouli state itself.

4. Political history: the gaogouli state was found in a place named gao-gou-li County of Han empire. It kings have a long history to recieve polictical titles like "East General","Provincial King(郡王)" "King" from his superior lord in Middle Kingdom.  Most importantly, Gaogouli ended by Tang army's conquer (with appendage army from silla).

Later a state named itself Gao-Li/Co-ree in korean penisula claimed it was the successor of gaogouli. Also later because this state admited a vassal of china, therefore ancient chinese historian put gogouli's histroy to Gao-Li mistakenly.

So it was history made gaogouli a china's land. Unfortunaly, people of modern korea which gained independence from china and japan, especially those riched south koreans want to make everything from their historybooks a independence.

 



Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:24

Sup.  Welcome to the forum

1. Culture: the mainstream culture of all Gaogouli, Silla, Baiji/Paki states was decented from chinese culture. Of course it added its regional aspects just like other parts of china did. Gogouli used chinese system of writing, ceremony,and philosophies of daolism, buddlalism, confucialism. Now korean just simply went to deny it/they are/were chinese culture countries.

1. Koguri people wore their own style of clothes

2. They ate their own style of food

3. They rode their own style of mountain horses

4. They used Korean bows and arrows.

5. They were heavily influenced by shamanism

6. Daoism confusianism comes in during chosun age.  During the 3 age, it was about Honik.

7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6.

8.  Korean buddhism is more shamanistic.  Go look for a Korean altar and you see its got more pebbles and greenish.  OR play RON, they made the asian building set as Korean.

9.  Define culture.  We Koreans had dynasties which all lasted more thatn 500 years.  You Chinese dynasties only last for 300 years max.

10.  I don't know what you mean by regional aspects.  It seems as if someone lied to you about this.

2. People: Although some fled to korean peninsula, but "the mainstream peoples" of Gaogouli later all became chinese of northeast china. according to documents of tang dynasty, roughly several "hundreds of thousands" of people moved from the land of former Gaogouli to inland China.

More that that went into Sorabyol, capital of Shilla.  And those who went to Tang later rebelled and moved into Manchu, to establish Barhe(Bohei)

3.Land: the most part of land of former Gaogouli has been china's/chinese for more than 1300 years. The time is Longer than the lasting time of gaogouli state itself.

Since when did China claim "barbarian" land as theirs?  I even heard that Tang called Taiwan a bunch of barbarians and now they all go wtf its still china.

4. Political history: the gaogouli state was found in a place named gao-gou-li County of Han empire. It kings have a long history to recieve polictical titles like "East General","Provincial King(郡王)" "King" from his superior lord in Middle Kingdom.  Most importantly, Gaogouli ended by Tang army's conquer (with appendage army from silla).

1.  Han's influence over Manchu was dead before Koguri.  Long dead

2.  Koguri started off from Puyo, decendants of Old Choson who still persisted on the northern region of the land conquered by Han

3.  That last sentence is biased.  It was Shilla who conquered Koguri not Tang.  Tang just sat next to Shilla looking how Shilla fought.

Also later because this state admited a vassal of china, therefore ancient chinese historian put gogouli's histroy to Gao-Li mistakenly.

That's when Kublai Khan conquers Korea.  And I thought you chinese called him "barbarian". 

So it was history made gaogouli a china's land. But unfortunaly people of modern korea which gained independence from china and japan, especially those riched south koreans want to make everything from their historybooks a independence.

Mao Zedong's history book said "Koguri is korean".  Its you Chinese who gone mad in recent years.  And those enriched south Koreans are the ones who doesn't care about history



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:31

Oh, I'm not alone. But I think we'd best present our viewpoint together with our evidences.That's why I'm translating several papers I listed above.  In addition, our viewpoint and those scholar's viewpoint should not identical,  I think Goguri did had some relations to the country in Chosun after a particular time.

It's half past three ,am.   Welcome you! my fellow countrymen! ~ I must sleep now~



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:32
So I guess all Koreans are Chinese, and so are the Japanese because they are related to Koreans...and oh wait the whole world is Chinese!  Yay China rules the friken world...and Hannibal stop asking us questions and tell us your friken point!
Koguryo having relations with Chosun?  Before talking to us I think that you need to make sure what you say is correct
First of all if you are speaking of Go CHosun, it was long dead before Koguryo
and if you are just talking about Chosun...my friend that was founded long before Koguryo, so basically my point is, wtf are you talking about?


-------------


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:37

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

So I guess all Koreans are Chinese, and so are the Japanese because they are related to Koreans...and oh wait the whole world is Chinese!  Yay China rules the friken world...and Hannibal stop asking us questions and tell us your friken point!

No. I don't think so,Gubuk. Korean is Korean.I swear I never think you are me  Could you read the questions I listed above? Thank you

Sleep~ Now



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:38

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I thot you understood my point, but now you go right back to the "China stole from us" issue.  I have said before, let me say it again: China is full of crap.  We're not even talking about China anymore.  I was talking about simply our notion of nationality is an inadequate notion.  What I and Hansioux in effect saying is that Koguryo was not Korea, just as Han was not China, Charlemagne's empire was neither Germany nor France.  If you don't see why this is, we'll have to go over the entire argument again.  What we're not saying is that Koguryo isn't a part of Korean heritage.  The challenge here is that social entities cannot be viewed as a temporally continous entities.  This doesn't mean that cultural aspects of the past (whether it be customs or archeological artifiacts) cannot be celebrated by a people.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:44
First of all Hannibal I was speaking to Yan Wang

Second Meng Tzu, I understand what you are saying, even though I may not 100% agree with you I totally respect it and I believe that there is a lot of truth to it.  But as a Korean I feel I must protect my heritage.  At this point, I am not interested in bettering the world with your wonderful idealolgy(I'm not being sarcastic so don't be offended), I am interested in Confronting people like Hannibal and Yan Wang and protecting my heritage.  I think what you believe is wonderful, sadly that is not the accepted view of history and as much as I would love to believe what you say(I really do, please believe me I really do) the majority of people do not and will take either a Korean of Chinese point of view.  I need to protect my heritage and until the day this problem is resolved, or until the day all mankind is enlightened like you Meng Tzu (once again no sarcasm intended there) I must protect my heritage.

BTW Demon, could you give me a link to this Chinese propaganda you speak of?


-------------


Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 14:51

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    What you're saying is not only understandable, it's justifiable.  I'm sorry that I have to turn everything into some grand sociological theories (sociology was my major in UC Berkeley,) but before you can engage the world in ecumenical dialogues, you gotta make sure that your people is represented.  Martin Luther King Jr said that, "I want integration, but not integration out of power."  People who think that they're being selfless in accepting assimilation and refuse to keep their own kind from being erased from the social image are being truly selfish.

Peace,

Michael

8-30-2004



Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 15:10
I'm watching something about this issue and this came up...
It has been accpeted that Koguryo was of the Yemaek tribe, which linked the country to Go Josun and Buyeo, but China just released a new paper stating that the people of Koguryo were actually of the Yumje Tribe, thus in their eyes destroying any linkage to Koreans...


-------------


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 15:13

I suggest that we should make a stalemate for 1 week, and during that miserable time, we gather some sources to back our claims up.  Of course in a new thread.

And to Gubukjanggoon, Koguri was a multiethnical nation.  You even had murals with paintings of blond people  I'm not saying that Koguryos were whites, but they might even had some white minority.



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 15:17
ACtually i've heard of the blondies..,They were probably of Scythian descent
the core ruling class was Yaemaek
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200408/kt2004083119 391311950.htm
thought you might find the sight interesting.


-------------


Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 04:48

1. Koguri people wore their own style of clothes

and,,more of those clothes were almost same to ones from ppeople of Chinese han dynasty. just like today's korean tradional clothes are almost same to chinese of chinese Ming dynesty.

2. They ate their own style of food

Also chinese dishes have many regional flavors. what they ate was just like peoples in northeast china.

3. They rode their own style of mountain horses

so, whats the special riding style they have which was different from chinese and damned same with modern koreans?

 

4. They used Korean bows and arrows.

They used Chinese Bows and arrow, there was no korean then.

5. They were heavily influenced by shamanism

all people once has its own shamanism.

6. Daoism confusianism comes in during chosun age.  During the 3 age, it was about Honik.

No.big mistake. if they came to korean penisula at that later as they are in your words, japanese people would know nothing about those as early as 8 centure. and choson was nothing to do with gaoguli. Chinese ideas came to gaoguli within the books which were written in chinese language.

7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6.

its same as i said.

8.  Korean buddhism is more shamanistic.  Go look for a Korean altar and you see its got more pebbles and greenish.  OR play RON, they made the asian building set as Korean.

Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language, so they even didnt need to translate them. korean built buildings by imitating chinese Tang models. and of course gaoguli was not korean, its even had many temples built directly by hands of inland chinese workers. And also here you korean is nothing to do with building styles of gaogouli

9.  Define culture.  We Koreans had dynasties which all lasted more thatn 500 years.  You Chinese dynasties only last for 300 years max.

korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans.

10.  I don't know what you mean by regional aspects.  It seems as if someone lied to you about this.

i mean the chinese regional aspects gaoguli had is nothing to do with korean of  modern day.

More that that went into Sorabyol, capital of Shilla.  And those who went to Tang later rebelled and moved into Manchu, to establish Barhe(Bohei)

No. i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese.

Since when did China claim "barbarian" land as theirs?  I even heard that Tang called Taiwan a bunch of barbarians and now they all go wtf its still china.

nosense.

1.  Han's influence over Manchu was dead before Koguri.  Long dead

No, it polically lasted till han's end. late restored by dynesties, thats why manchurian is china's land now. And it culturely lasted till now.

2.  Koguri started off from Puyo, decendants of Old Choson who still persisted on the northern region of the land conquered by Han

The positon of where the Old Choson located is still controversy. Also the Old Choson has a ancient chinese lord Jizi who admited by Kings and people of Koryo and Choson..

3.  That last sentence is biased.  It was Shilla who conquered Koguri not Tang.  Tang just sat next to Shilla looking how Shilla fought.

how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli? if they could, they couldnt get their military titles as chinese appertains. besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals.

That's when Kublai Khan conquers Korea.  And I thought you chinese called him "barbarian". 

yes , it was also the begining of the state in korean penisular recives the formal titile of "provincial king of choson(朝鲜郡王)" or "Handle Choson/Gao-li state affairs(权朝鲜/高丽国事)" from their superior lords in middle kingdom until your last king crowned himself the emperor.

Mao Zedong's history book said "Koguri is korean".  Its you Chinese who gone mad in recent years.  And those enriched south Koreans are the ones who doesn't care about history

Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now.



Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 05:00
After all, Chinese citizens have their right to put the history of their own land as their own,  there is No such right for modern koreans of south korea to claim a history of chinese land. Otherwise those people just simply want to make troubles.


Posted By: I/eye
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 06:28

.

.

.

.

.



-------------
[URL=http://imageshack.us]


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 08:24

It seems that no one answer my question

I listed below something about a comparison on costume.

http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?showtopic=910 - http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?sho wtopic=910

Calm, all.    We are here exchange views, that's all we could do.



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 09:25

and,,more of those clothes were almost same to ones from ppeople of Chinese han dynasty. just like today's korean tradional clothes are almost same to chinese of chinese Ming dynesty.

Because China copied it from Korea....?  Korean clothes originated from Dong Yi clothes, btw

Also chinese dishes have many regional flavors. what they ate was just like peoples in northeast china.

That doesn't make them chinese the way french fries is not all American

so, whats the special riding style they have which was different from chinese and damned same with modern koreans?

Chinese Horses: Big, Fat, and rides on praries

Korean Horses: Small, Lumpy, and rides on hills and mountains

Do you expect them to be the same?

They used Chinese Bows and arrow, there was no korean then.

Go visit "Ancient Korean bows" and look for something called Gak-Goong.  Crossbows maybe Chinese, but not bows.  Koreans have this blood of archery distinct with China, just look at the olympics for an evidence

all people once has its own shamanism.

If you look on dictionary.com, you see that the common termnology of "shamanism" originates in Siberia.

No.big mistake. if they came to korean penisula at that later as they are in your words, japanese people would know nothing about those as early as 8 centure. and choson was nothing to do with gaoguli. Chinese ideas came to gaoguli within the books which were written in chinese language.

I never said they never practiced them, just that they weren't dominant, the way Islam was not dominant but was popular during Kori dynasty

korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans.

I'm referring to Dong Yi.  You Chinese even called Dong Yi as gentlemen

Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language, so they even didnt need to translate them. korean built buildings by imitating chinese Tang models. and of course gaoguli was not korean, its even had many temples built directly by hands of inland chinese workers. And also here you korean is nothing to do with building styles of gaogouli

1.  Do you expect Indians to swim all the way to Korea evading China?

2. Dong Yi tombs are made out of stones, while tang were big sand murals.  And guess where the Architecture of Kori came from

mean the chinese regional aspects gaoguli had is nothing to do with korean of  modern day.

Tae-kion? (btw, do you know where Taekwondo came from?)

Ssirum?

Sul Nal?

Moo Goon Hwa?

Siberian Shamanism?

No. i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese.

No it didn't.  Read my thread: "Barhe(Bohei) was not brought down by Khitans!"

nosense.

Prove it

No, it polically lasted till han's end. late restored by dynesties, thats why manchurian is china's land now. And it culturely lasted till now.

Wait...it was dominated by Khitans during song....hmmmm.  I thought Khitans were "BARBARIANS" by Chinese definition.....hmmmm...and let's see manchus....they are classified as outer..thus ... BARBARIANS....and now these Chinese are claiming barbarians as theirs....sounds like how Japan made their "Eastern Great Asian Empire"

The positon of where the Old Choson located is still controversy. Also the Old Choson has a ancient chinese lord Jizi who admited by Kings and people of Koryo and Choson..

Read my thread: Who were the Dong Yi.  I even have Chinese sources confirming that Old Choson originated from Manchu.

how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli? if they could, they couldnt get their military titles as chinese appertains. besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals.

1.  How can you imagine William Wallace handle 300 iron plated armor with a bunch of pikes?

2.  And if Tang was good enough to conquer Koguri, why not Shilla?

3.  Why not Barhe when it was created?  Wasn''t tang strong enough to do that stuff?

yes , it was also the begining of the state in korean penisular recives the formal titile of "provincial king of choson(朝鲜郡王)" or "Handle Choson/Gao-li state affairs(权朝鲜/高丽国事)" from their superior lords in middle kingdom until your last king crowned himself the emperor.

What does that have to do with the topic?

Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now.

Nein.  He just sent millions of political opposition to war so that they died.  China also just wanted a buffer between capitalism and communism and therefore left South Korea unconquered.  IF China was so lovely, it would have conquered south Korea for the lovly Greate Leader Kim il son.

-------------

You know what?  This discussion is rather pointless.  Perhaps we should make a stalemate for 1 week as suggested, and during that time, hold our breath, hold our patience, and start gathering historical sources to prove our claims. 

I don't want textbooks either.  It would be more pointless to have a Japanese student come put to claim that a brief clash was named as Nanking MAssacre when he bases his claims upon his textbook and what the government told him.

I'll open a topic thread next week.  We shall discuss this matter then.  Okay?



-------------
Grrr..


Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 09:54

You know what?  This discussion is rather pointless.  Perhaps we should make a stalemate for 1 week as suggested, and during that time, hold our breath, hold our patience, and start gathering historical sources to prove our claims. 

I don't want textbooks either.  It would be more pointless to have a Japanese student come put to claim that a brief clash was named as Nanking MAssacre when he bases his claims upon his textbook and what the government told him.

I'll open a topic thread next week.  We shall discuss this matter then.  Okay?

--------------------

Okay! demon  A week later, we present our evidences at the same time and discuss them. Besides,I suggest that our evidences should include something in common. such as 'the origin of Goguri','the Ethnic migration and amalgamation of  ancient Korean Peninsula ' etc. We can discuss what common thing should be included now



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.


Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 10:20
Look hannibal, I don't know if you are some professor or something, but this is basically an amateur thread, we don't want to be swamped with your long academic papers. With all do respect.  We would rather you present your point in a simple easy to understand and fairly short outline outline.  Please, give us your point...which you still haven't done.
"7. Shiilla and bekjae are same for 1~6."
Yan Wang, by your definition, Koguryo is to be considered Chinese because it was "Sinicized"  I guess that by your definition all of Korea is CHinese, and there have been no Korean countries ever.  Also, the Vietnamese never existed and Nintendo is actually run by a Chinese corporation, because Japan also never existed.  Just because a certain group is influenced by another doesn't mean that they suddenly become the same people...
"Mao also sent millions of chinese to defend korea at request of the Great Leader Kim il-Son. and even today, those un-enriched people of china still send aids to our dear neighbor north korea to help its people alive. I hope those South koreans or enriched koreans should do things more to help your kins rather than claims a history of land of china now."
Also, I think that we can all agree that North Korean examples, from either sides, amount to nothing more than propoganda, so let's all refrain from using them.  In addition, Koguryo has always been Considered Korean History, even Chinese school books state this, it is China who is claiming history.

Yan Wang you stated that a large part of Koguryo is located in CHina so it's a Chinese nation, but you have to remember that part of it is also in Korea, extending into the area right below Seoul.  Also by this logic, would Alexander the Great's empire be not considered a Greek or Macedonian empire just because most of it was located in Persia?
"Also korean buddhim copied books , classics, ideals from china.because they were using chinese language"
So are you saying Koguryo was Korean?  Also just because one borrowed a language doesn't mean anything.  Once again are teh Vietnamese or Japanese to be considered Chinese?

"korean dont have a civilized culture until chinese was introduced. and korean still hanged arts of chinese calligraphy in their rooms to show their are civilized persons. so here chinese gaoguli has nothing to do with koreans."

What?  First of saying that one doesn't have a civilized culture is a pretty racist remark, the idea of civilized is an invented term and doesn't exist.  Second of all just because Koreans hang chinese calligraphy up doesn't mean the Koguryo isn't KOrean, I don't get the reasoning.  Koguryo used CHinese characters, so wouldn't they have done the same?

Culturally, I know you don't agree Meng Tzu, KOguryans had more to do with Korea.
examples:  Taekkyon, Ssirum, language, food, and others. 
Culturally Koguryo has this in common with CHina, writing, religeon.
If Koguryo is to be claimed as Chiense because of these facts, why not claim every other Korean dynasty, Vietnamese dynasty, and Japanese entitiy that ever existed?

<>"i said mainstream went to or stay in Tang. and also Bohai has nothing to do with  koreans since its land and people became chinese."

Prove the Mainstream stayed in China.  Also, does Spain not have a claim to the history of its colonies in North America Just because they became the United states and Mexico?  Also I assume the all Native Americans no longer even have a history as they don't have their own countries anymore.


The Han Dynasties Comanderies in Korea were also long dead before Koguryo


"how can you imagine a small state like sillia can handle a state like gaogouli?"
How did Shilla defeat Tang and drive them out of Korea?  They just did.

"besides we have well documented history and tales on how Tang general Xue RenGui conquered gaogouli state and moved their king to chinese capitals."
This probably happened, but the people either went to Shilla, or others founded the Barhae state.  I'm sure some assimilated into China, but the ones who were carrying the torch, bad metaphor, of Koguryo culture and ect went to Korea or founded Barhae, who's people fled to Koryo after the fall of their kingdom.




>>





-------------


Posted By: warhead
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 10:32

"That last sentence is biased.  It was Shilla who conquered Koguri not Tang.  Tang just sat next to Shilla looking how Shilla fought."

 

No, it was tang that destroyed GaoGouLi, Silla was just a helper, Tang eventually set up commandaries within GaoGouLi and Silla only took it later.

 

"Wait...it was dominated by Khitans during song....hmmmm.  I thought Khitans were "BARBARIANS" by Chinese definition.....hmmmm...and let's see manchus....they are classified as outer..thus ... BARBARIANS....and now these Chinese are claiming barbarians as theirs....sounds like how Japan made their "Eastern Great Asian Empire""

Its not now, it has been done in the past, Foreign rulers are quite irrleveant, the empire they claimed legitimacy to is the country and the country alone.



Posted By: hannibal
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 10:45

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Look hannibal, I don't know if you are some professor or something, but this is basically an amateur thread, we don't want to be swamped with your long academic papers. With all do respect.  We would rather you present your point in a simple easy to understand and fairly short outline outline.  Please, give us your point...which you still haven't done. 
Yan Wang, by your definition, Koguryo is to be considered Chinese because it was "Sinicized"  I guess that by your definition all of Korea is CHinese, and there have been no Korean countries ever.  Also, the Vietnamese never existed and Nintendo is actually run by a Chinese corporation, because Japan also never existed.  Just because a certain group is influenced by another doesn't mean that they suddenly become the same people...Also, I think that we can all agree that North Korean examples, from either sides, amount to nothing more than propoganda, so let's all refrain from using them.

You are right in one thing Dear Gubuk Though I have had an outline of my point in my mind, I still not sure it is 'right' or 'wrong' for the complexity of GaoGouLi history.

I must examine all materials I collected. The outline of  my viewpoint can just go together with several papers in English.If  I give my point,no evidences to sustain them. Then meaningless quarrel will appear again~ 


 



-------------
Who am I?
I'm General of Carthage;
Eternal biggest enemy of Rome.



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com