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greatest Turkish Tribe/Kingdom??

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19708
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 08:46
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Topic: greatest Turkish Tribe/Kingdom??
Posted By: Balain d Ibelin
Subject: greatest Turkish Tribe/Kingdom??
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 07:57
Turks have many tribes and Kingdoms.. So, what's the greatest in your opinion??

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"Good quality will be known among your enemies, before you ever met them my friend"Trobadourre de Crusadier Crux



Replies:
Posted By: TheMysticNomad
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 09:17

Please note that many historians do not consider the Scythians and Alanians to have been "Turkish."  However, many members of this particular forum do believe this to have been the case, which is why you see them on the list.  Personally, I wouldn't include them on the list.



Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 10:23
I do not consider the Mongols to be Turks (I'm sure that will annoy plenty of you).

I voted for the Khazars (I would have gone Ottomans but decided not to include them in the list). The Khazars more than any other created a durable, powerful state with a decent economy. They successfully resisted the attacks of the Caliphate, took up organised religion and gained pre-eminent recognition from the Byzantines.


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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 11-May-2007 at 11:05
(Tokharians were Indo-european people not Turkic) I vote for Seljuks.

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Anfører


Posted By: Kerimoglu
Date Posted: 12-May-2007 at 05:42
Tokharians were Turkish!!!
 
Mongols, Scythians and Alans were/are not, Mongols are closer, and Scythians could have been the ancestors of many nations, as well as Huns.


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History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!


Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 15-May-2007 at 11:00
tokharians , scythians and alans are Iranic peoples. But in effectiveness and impact I will choose huns. But in stability and durability my choice is Khazars. 


Posted By: the_oz
Date Posted: 15-May-2007 at 11:38
oghuz tribe because seljuks and ottomans are oghuz descendants.


Posted By: oghuzkb
Date Posted: 15-May-2007 at 12:26
I voted Huns, since their empires covered largest aria. And they ruled the steppe for a very long time, though not consistent. Time range approximately  from 2500BC(mentioned in chinese record) to at least 469AD( europian hunnic empire) .
For God´s sake, why Mongol? they are not Turkish, they speak Altay lang. system, but does not belong to Turkish lang. family. Ok their army consisted of certain ratio of turkish tribes, but its still mongol empire, not turkish.

As for Tokharians and Scythians, i would say its not clear enough to say whether they are Hunnic-turkic stock or not...


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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 15-May-2007 at 15:27
who voted khazaria hehe

i can't vote to hard

I personally think the oguzes are getting to much credit compared with the kypchaks and northern turks


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-May-2007 at 07:36
I believe that they began walking long long before they had names. The fact that I feel a brotherhood feeling with an Ainu in Japan or a Native American, the fact that I even feel respect for Uluru of Katja Tuta (The Great and Lot of Heads), the fact that Inana the blond godess makes me smile, the fact that every theory proves that common people always try to hold on their language, the fact that I could be able to talk to so many people today, in this world, only makes me dreamy. And happy. 
Yes this is a piece of puzzle to big to dig it simply like a disturbing afterthought.
I should say they are all, pieces missing on a puzzle glued to be a picture with to many holes, like a tissue eated by mites (or shoud I write myths). 
 


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-May-2007 at 08:34
Alans were Iranic and the Tokharians were İndo-European.
 
Mongols are not Turkic,but their empire was half-turkic.


Posted By: Herschel
Date Posted: 21-May-2007 at 00:50

The Alans were not a turkic people. They are speakers of an Iranic language and settled in the Caucasus during the late-classical and early-medieval period. They were a dominant people in the area for many centuries and even allied with, and submitted to Khazaria; so I can see why some would think they are Turkic.

The Tocharians were Indo-European, also. Do you have any sources that say otherwise?

And the Scythians have been argued over so many times here. If they can't have been proven to speak an Iranic language that doesn't mean that they speak Turkish.
 
I vote for the Oghuz, by the way. They were the most influencial turkic people of the bunch.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-May-2007 at 07:16
I vote Others for Oghuz.
 
Because, Oghuzes (Kınık) first created Seljuks, then (Kayı) created Ottomans.... Do I need more explanation?


Posted By: çok geç
Date Posted: 21-May-2007 at 12:42
Same here. I cannot think of a tribe that has more impact than Oghuz turks especially the impact of their immigration to South Western Asia.

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D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 21-May-2007 at 14:43
^yeah they had the most impact i'm not going to argue with you on that but the other tribes deserve some credit and i don't think they're getting it.


never the less the oghuzes r the most know of them all for the accmplishments


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 21-May-2007 at 19:49
It depends what is the criteria of "greatest" or "success.
 
The Oghuz Turks tracing historical descendancy to "Oghuz Khan" like other Turks. They founded the Oghuz Yagbu, Seljuk, Ottoman, Kara/Akkoyunlu, Atabeks, Safavids, Afsharids and have had a huge impact on Central Asia/Near East/Middle East and even North Africa and Europe over the last one and a half millenia.
 
However, the Xiognu/Huns in my opinion also were very important, they were a semi-nomadic state, the first Turkic group to have towns and cities, they had an organised state and the first formal army split into decimal units and used millitary bands.
 
Also the Uyghurs have been among the most sucessfull and advanced Turks, they made lots of discoveries and gave importance to the arts alot more. They have the oldest cities among Turks, ancient resevoir systems, compteted with the Chinease in advancements, founded large states. The Karakhanids wrote some of the first epic Turkic literature on paper and developed the language. Uyghur had alot of influence on most Turks.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 22-May-2007 at 13:09
If i'm not mistaken not all atabeylik were oghuz

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-May-2007 at 16:50
uighurs.


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Posted By: DayI
Date Posted: 22-May-2007 at 17:24
the founders of Gok turuk empire wherent Oghuz also iirc, the ashina clan i mean.

they mainly caused the movement of the Oguz people.


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Posted By: kurt
Date Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:42

the oghuz, then the uighurs, then the mongols. i can't see how you would forget to mention the oghuz in your list.



Posted By: Kamikaze 738
Date Posted: 29-May-2007 at 15:31
Huns and Mongols are not from Turkish origins thus should not be on the list, but they did conquer parts of Turkish inhabited terrorities...


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 29-May-2007 at 17:04
Mongols arn't Turkic.
 
Huns-Xiong-nu were Turkic according to most sources.


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 05:21

I have a request to TURKISH forumers. Please don't attempt to claim Mongols or Avars to be Turkish tribe, since there isn't enough relation to prove it. When do you stop extreme nationalist tendency over the other nations, denying their cultural differences, such as Kurds and Bulgars. How poor and unrespectful your historical education is!!! 



Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 14:02
 
Don't generalize Helegu Han. the majority of comments to say that Mongols were not Turkic, actually came from our Turkic members. Avar is a different story.


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 14:02
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Huns and Mongols are not from Turkish origins thus should not be on the list, but they did conquer parts of Turkish inhabited terrorities...
 
If Huns were not the ancestors of the Turks, then Who were?
 
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 16:28
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Huns and Mongols are not from Turkish origins thus should not be on the list, but they did conquer parts of Turkish inhabited terrorities...
 
If Huns were not the ancestors of the Turks, then Who were?
 
 
It's not sensible to search modern nations ancestors from such early period of history when ,except for few nations, nationality of all weren't clear. We just know Huns once lived in vast area of Asian steppes but there were many tribes living at the same time as Huns.  Probably Turks may have derrived from that tribes such as Sogdians, Bactrians or Western Huns.  


Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 01:54
I also agree that the Mongols were definately not Turks. Though, when Genghis Khan conquered all of the Mongol tribes, he was also able to obsorb a few Turkic tribes as well, which soon began to recognise themselves as being part of the Mongol Nation.
 
So to assume that the Mongol Nation created by Genghis consisted of Mostly mongols, but also a big Turk population, would be a good assumption.


Posted By: Kamikaze 738
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 02:58
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Huns and Mongols are not from Turkish origins thus should not be on the list, but they did conquer parts of Turkish inhabited terrorities...
 
If Huns were not the ancestors of the Turks, then Who were?


Im not exactly sure myself but I do believe that Huns werent Turkish ancestors but instead are in the same sub-divisionary catagory coming from the same ancestors which probably came to Central Asia from Siberia... however I clearly dont have much evidence to back that claim up so Im not confirming that it is true. But what I can confirm is that there were already Turks in Central Asia before the Huns migrated/fled there.

Sources from the Chinese Han Dynasty said that the Xiongnu or Huns had record of a Turkish speaking language near their area. Thus its impossible that the Turks were descendants of the Huns when they themselves are already present. The Han army at the time defeated the Xiongnu many times and they decided to flee west, which probably encounter the Turkish nomads there which were trading with the Hans via the Silk Road which was constantly threaten by the Xiongnu.

The Han emperor finally ordered a commander to fully drive out the Xiongnu out of western China and Ban Chao lead an expedition chasing the fleeing Xiongnu. Ban Chao recorded that there were people traveling with tends and migrated from one area to the next (though these may be Bactrian and Sogdianian but chances are they encounter Turkish tribes like the Khazars). There could have been some intermixing between the two peoples during those time but Turks being descendant from Huns are unlikely to me... Ermm


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 07:32
Kamikaze
sources from the Chinese Han Dynasty said that the Xiongnu or Huns had record of a Turkish speaking language near their area. Thus its impossible that the Turks were descendants of the Huns when they themselves are already present.
 
That really is an "ironic" statement.
 
We know most sources point towards Xiongnu Huns speaking Turkic and then you say its impossible for them to be Turkic Confused
 
Turks originated from that region, Mete Khan, Teoman etc are names used by Turks, the Tuman millitary system was inherited to Turks, its highly likely that Huns were originally made up of Turkic peoples, most sources and documents say that they were Turkic.
 
 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Hulegu Han
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 15:15
I again want to say that it's not sensible to search modern nations ancestors from such early period of history when nationality of all weren't clear as many records were likely to be kind of mythology.


Posted By: Kamikaze 738
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 19:10
Originally posted by Bulldog

We know most sources point towards Xiongnu Huns speaking Turkic and then you say its impossible for them to be Turkic Confused


Language may be similar but Turks cant be descendants of the Huns if the Huns and Turks are living at the same time... both people originated from the same place. Basically Turks and Huns are like cousins along with the Mongols that came from the same place that took separate paths of settlement.


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 19:58
Meshketians deserve a lot of respect. They punched above their weight, and refused to be assimilated. Some even survived annihilation.

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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 08:47
Kamikaze
Language may be similar but Turks cant be descendants of the Huns if the Huns and Turks are living at the same time... both people originated from the same place. Basically Turks and Huns are like cousins along with the Mongols that came from the same place that took separate paths of settlement.

Xiongnu-Huns were made up of various tribes including many Turkic ones making them part of Turkic ancestory aswell.


 


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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Kamikaze 738
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 20:14
Originally posted by Bulldog

Xiongnu-Huns were made up of various tribes including many Turkic ones making them part of Turkic ancestory aswell.


Including Mongolians too, making them part of the Turkic ancestory as well then... Wacko


Posted By: GR3Y077
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 03:32
Why are the Ottomans and Timurids left out
 


Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:26

I think it was about tribes not large empires or states?

Even if thats the case how could the Oguz Turks be left out? and Khazaria was a powerfull state not just a tribe or kingdom.



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      “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”
Albert Pine



Posted By: Afsar Beghi
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:48
Definitely the Huns

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Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur,
Nice koç yiğitler yere serilir,
Olen ölür kalan sağlar bizimdir!


Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 15:48
Originally posted by malizai_

Meshketians deserve a lot of respect. They punched above their weight, and refused to be assimilated. Some even survived annihilation.


like me. Wink

accualy they belonged to  one  of th Kypchak Beyliks before entering the Ottoman empire


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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage


Posted By: barbar
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2007 at 07:08
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738


Sources from the Chinese Han Dynasty said that the Xiongnu or Huns had record of a Turkish speaking language near their area. Thus its impossible that the Turks were descendants of the Huns when they themselves are already present. The Han army at the time defeated the Xiongnu many times and they decided to flee west, which probably encounter the Turkish nomads there which were trading with the Hans via the Silk Road which was constantly threaten by the Xiongnu.
 
 
Which source of Han records mentioned Turkic tribes? Who were they? The name Turk appreared only after Tujue.
 


The Han emperor finally ordered a commander to fully drive out the Xiongnu out of western China and Ban Chao lead an expedition chasing the fleeing Xiongnu. Ban Chao recorded that there were people traveling with tends and migrated from one area to the next (though these may be Bactrian and Sogdianian but chances are they encounter Turkish tribes like the Khazars). There could have been some intermixing between the two peoples during those time but Turks being descendant from Huns are unlikely to me... Ermm
 
There were many Nomadic tribes who had similar culture to those of the Huns in the west, Yuechi, Di, Sai, Wusun etc.  Of course many of these tribes became Turkic (or maybe they were originally not too much different from Turkic tribes) in the later history, however we have continuous historical record that Turkic tribes were the decendants of the Huns.
 
Xin Tang Shu, 142, Huihu Zhuan:
 
"回纥,其先匈奴也,俗多乘高轮车,元魏时亦号高车部,或曰敕勒,讹为铁勒。其部落曰袁纥、薛延陀、契苾羽、都播、骨利干、多览葛、仆骨、拔野古、同罗、浑、思结、斛薛、奚结、阿跌、白,凡十有五种,皆散处碛北。 "
 
"Huihe (Uyghur), ancesters were Xiongnu (Hun). Before use high carts, so during yuanwei also called Gaoche, or Chile, or Tiele.  Its tribes are Yuanhe, Xueyantuo, Qiebiyu, Dubo, Guligan, Duolange, bugu, Bayegu, Tongluo, Hun, Sijie, jiexue, Xijie, Adie, Baigu, all 15 tribes, scattered in the north."
 
All the historical records are clear about the Tiele (Tura) tribes (Turkic tribes) were the decendants of the Xiongnu (Hun).  
 
And also we have clear record that  Donghu (ancestors of Mongolic tribes) were called such because they were in the east of Hu (Xiongnu). NOT eastern branch of Hu.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Either make a history or become a history.


Posted By: kurt
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2007 at 09:22
Originally posted by Hulegu Han

I have a request to TURKISH forumers. Please don't attempt to claim Mongols or Avars to be Turkish tribe, since there isn't enough relation to prove it. When do you stop extreme nationalist tendency over the other nations, denying their cultural differences, such as Kurds and Bulgars. How poor and unrespectful your historical education is!!! 

 
Just some things for you to consider ...
 
Many names in Turkey and other turkic countries also common in names in Mongolia. Such as my middle name Berke, which was the name of Genghis Khan's grandson and who was the second ruler of the Golden Horde. Other names, such as my father's name Orhan (derived from Or-khan, meaning son-of-khan), others such as Batuhan (derived from Batu-Khan, who was Berke Khan's father), Metehan and several dozen others, are prevalent in turkic countries.
As is so for many words in the western turkish language, although  western turkish has been influenced heavily by Persian and Arabic. Nontheless, their similar roots and origins with Mongolian language can be seen. So i think you will agree that there is relation.
 
Consider this also; Timur (another name common in turkic countries), or Tamer Lane, or Timur Leng, whatever you want to call him, is considered by most historians as a mongol. Yet he considered himself a Turk, as can be seen by quotes from his correspondence with Beyazid. Henceforth, to suggest that mongols and turks are related, if not of the same ethnic stock, isn't an invalid suggestion.
 
I can't deny that there are turkish nationalists out there who make a lot of baseless claims, but this isn't one of them, besides which, it is unfair to assume all turks support these theories.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 12:40
oghuz tribe of course....

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Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 19:59
I too vote for the oghuz tribe


Posted By: man2rk
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 14:13
I vote for the uighurs as they built orkhun uighur empire, Karahanid state, edikut state and also Ertene state in anatolia before the ottomans came into power. they decorated all turkic and monggolic people with their wisdom. if some day the legend would be proven then the legendary  pro-history Mu empire also built by themTongue

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History is something that victors write on the back of losers.


Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 16-Oct-2011 at 16:13
what is the question? the greatest Turkish tribe/kingdom or the greatest Turkish nomad tribe/kingdom

Uyghurs are third biggest choice with 15% of vote (when I saw). However these people are well-known with not being nomadic LOL They are the first tribe who chose built-life so in my opinion,  if question was about nomad tribe/kingdom, they shouldn't have been in options.


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Ellerin Kabe'si var,
Benim Kabem İnsandır



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