Ancient Mediterranean and Europe: Greeks???

Greeks???

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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18772
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Topic: Greeks???

Posted By: xi_tujue
Subject: Greeks???
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:08

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.

how much of this is true?

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Replies:

Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:17

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture. how much of this is true?

Let me know if the links don't work.

Articles

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/hellenes/ - Racial Type of the Ancient Hellenes (pdf)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/ieorigins/ - Indo-European Origins in Southeast Europe

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/fallmerayer/ - Anthropological Evidence and the Fallmerayer Thesis

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/identity/index.html -

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greeknry/ - Greek Y Chromosomes

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekmtdna/ - Greek mtDNA

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/greekadna/ - Greek autosomal DNA

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/karlearlson/ - Against Karl Earlson�s �Nordic Hellas�

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/articles/kemp/ - Against Arthur Kemp�s �March of the Titans: The History of the White Race�

Texts

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/minoans/ - Carleton S. Coon on the Racial Type of the Ancient Minoans

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/greekmorphological/ - J. Lawrence Angel on Morphological Types of Greeks

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/angeltypes/ - J. Lawrence Angel on Caucasoid Morphological Types

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/biasutticaucasoid/ - Renato Biasutti on Caucasoid Subraces

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coonmed/ - Carleton S. Coon on the Mediterranean Race

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/hootonmed/ - Earnest A. Hooton on the Mediterranean Subrace

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/coongreeks/ - Carleton S. Coon on the Greeks

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/winckelmann/ - J. J. Winckelmann on Greeks and Italians

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/sergi/ - Giuseppe Sergi on the Alleged Homeric Evidence

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/poereview/ - Alexander H. Joffe Reviews �Black Spark, White Fire�

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/nemeth/ - Gyorgy Nemeth on Foreigners in Ancient Athens

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/nordicracism.pdf - Geoffrey G. Field, �Nordic Racism� (pdf)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/nordicism_revisited.pdf - A. James Gregor, �Nordicism Revisited� (pdf)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/natsoc/ - A. James Gregor, �National Socialism and Race�

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/texts/nazigermany/ - Historical Instruction in Nazi Germany

Pictures

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/mycenaeanfaces/ - Faces of the Mycenaeans

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/parallels/ - Parallels: Old and New Greeks

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/composites/ - Composite Greeks: the Ancient and the Modern

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/composites/woman - Composite Greeks: the Composite Greek Woman

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/composites/femaleathlete/ - Composites of Greek and European Female Athletes

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/greekmen/ - Pictures of Greek Men

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/ancientgreekmen/ - Pictures of Ancient Greek Men

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/greekwomen/ - Pictures of Greek Women

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/macedonia/ - Pictures of Men from Macedonia (1921)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/asiaminor/ - Pictures of Men from Asia Minor

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/fiveheroes/ - Five Greek Heroes from Pompeii

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/thera/ - Physical Types in Art from Thera

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/greekart/ - Physical Types in Ancient Greek Art

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/medfaces.pdf - Thirty Faces of Mediterranean Race (pdf)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/caucasoidfaces.pdf - Twelve Faces of Caucasoid Race (pdf)

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/europeanfaces.pdf - Thirty European Faces (pdf)

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:52

I thank you kindly HELLIOS LOTS OF INFO.

i will read it(how more I read the more i get intrested) But not all at once it's alot.

from what I have read sofar the sub-saharab thing is incorrect. I allways thought greeks were diffrent than the rest of europe.

Thanks Thumbs%20Up

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:52

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.

how much of this is true?

It's true, we all originate from sub-saharan Africa.

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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 14:56

Originally posted by Yiannis

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.

how much of this is true?

It's true, we all originate from sub-saharan Africa.

hehehe

I know

but what I ment was more "recent'

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 17:58

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.

how much of this is true?

Do you have any study that support your claim ?

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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:20

Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture.

how much of this is true?

Do you have any study that support your claim ?

Thats why I said I have heared. Don't get your panties in a twist buddy

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:25

We are Indo-Europeans,like Iranians.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:27

Originally posted by Spartakus

We are Indo-Europeans,like Iranians.

isn't that a language group?

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:35

It is ,but in my personal opinion,language is one of the really few trustworthy things when we search connection with the past.I am not so fond of Genetics.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:37

Originally posted by Spartakus

It is ,but in my personal opinion,language is one of the really few trustworthy things when we search connection with the past.I am not so fond of Genetics.

hmmm yeah I used to think so 2 but I think only in grammar & such

because I don't thrust vocabulary(loaning can happen & does happen)

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:38

There is a campain of the Afrocentrist to demostrate Greeks were actually Ethiopians. Afrocentrism is an international political campain to demostrate the center of the universe was Bantu.

There is no much substance at all in their claims, though.

Greeks were Greeks, and they are still Greeks. Period.

Pinguin

Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:39

Personaly,i prefer Isocrates :A Hellen/Greek is the one who has Hellenic/Greek education.

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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)

Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:40

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I heared that the greeks are a sub saharan people or have admixture. how much of this is true?

Originally posted by akritas

Do you have any study that support your claim ?

He didn't "claim" anything - he just asked a question.

Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 18:53

Originally posted by Spartakus

Personaly,i prefer Isocrates :A Hellen/Greek is the one who has Hellenic/Greek education.

I agree with him 100% Clap

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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage

Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 23:03

..the common factors of our Greekness, blood, language, the sacntuaries of the gods and their sacrifices, the same way of life..

Herodotus, vII, 144 (c430 bc)

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Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2007 at 23:52

Originally posted by pinguin

There is a campain of the Afrocentrist to demostrate Greeks were actually Ethiopians. Afrocentrism is an international political campain to demostrate the center of the universe was Bantu.

There is no much substance at all in their claims, though.

Greeks were Greeks, and they are still Greeks. Period.

Pinguin

Oh,yeah the Afrocentrists

....

anyway, that which was said from isocrates doesn't match with today's standarts...(unfortunately for us Greeks).

"the common factors of our Greekness, blood, language, the sacntuaries of the gods and their sacrifices, the same way of life.."

Thats a common truth for all the nations, i agree with the second and the last one ...

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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 04:36

Was not the Afrocentrists that started the sub-saharan issue but the FYROMacedonian propagandists by the Spanish lab of Villena. Arnaiz Villena was taken to court for embezzlement charges for the unauthorized use of laboratory and immunological items. Which proves one thing that papers was politically motivated as the Luca Cavalli-Sforza , Neil Risch and Alberto Piazza stated.

And The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans and this lab publihed and one more poltical motivated genetic paper by show that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans

http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3607&FID=34 -

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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 05:02

akritas, maybe you missed the post where he agrees the theory is false, here it is again:

Originally posted by xi_tujue

I thank you kindly HELLIOS LOTS OF INFO.

i will read it (how more I read the more i get intrested) But not all at once it's alot.
from what I have read so far the sub-saharab thing is incorrect...

Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 19:03

I, personally, do not find Arnaiz-Villena's arguments about greeks convincing but I feel important to make some remarks about Villena himself.

This guy published up to date 221 articles (f.e. 8 in 2006) in peer-reviewed journals i.e. journals where political motivation can be refused by 2 or 3 anonymous referees. Total citation index of 10 of his best cited papers is 413. This is very good achievement for everyone working in the field of biology. This, basically, means that his colleagues have respect to his work which is obviously politically not motivated.

And here are some comments to the below:

Originally posted by akritas

Arnaiz-Villena was taken to court for embezzlement charges for the unauthorized use of laboratory and immunological items.

Science is a business like any other way of getting money. There is no political motivation in unauthorized use of laboratory items. Here is the explanation about the court stuff:

Spanish immunologist Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, the author of a paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians, has been suspended without pay from the Hospital Doce de Octubre in Madrid, where he heads the department of immunology and molecular biology, after being charged with embezzlement of funds.

Dr Arnaiz-Villena, president of Spain's National Commission of Immunology, was the author of a polemical paper on the genetic origins of Palestinians that was retracted and deleted from records last autumn. In it he said that some Palestinians lived in concentration camps.

The embezzlement charges refer to Dr Arnaiz's �purchase of products not used in his department's healthcare activities; purchase of hospital products used in healthcare activities but in quantities much greater than needed; falsification of statistical data apparently to justify purchases; humiliating treatment of department staff; delay in healthcare activities; and transfer of department products to the university.�

Pilar Notario, spokeswoman for the hospital, said the products referred to were mainly laboratory and immunological items, some of which were allegedly transferred without permission to the university for research purposes, resulting in delay in doing immunological tests for patients.

She said the health ministry's Social Security Investigation Group�a police body�estimates the fraud may mean the hospital has lost �860000 (�531000; $756000) over the past five years. The final figure may reach �3.9m.

In addition to the charges, Dr Arnaiz-Villena is facing allegations of �moral harassment� at the Universidad Complutense de Madrid, where he chairs a research and teaching immunology unit.

Last October, the university started an internal inquiry after complaints by an associate professor at the unit, Mar�a Jos� Recio-Hoyas, whose contract for the academic course 2001-2 was not renewed because Dr Arnaiz- Villena delivered a negative report against her. Among other things, she told the BMJ, Dr Arnaiz- Villena accused her of misappropriating a DNA sequence of 930 base pairs of the DMB primate gene from his personal gene registry at the university.

Dr Arnaiz-Villena told the BMJ that he discovered that Dr Recio-Hoyas had registered the sequence in the gene bank database of the European Molecular Biology Laboratory in Heidelberg, Germany, in her name without telling him. Although she acknowledged that she took the sequence (essential material for her doctoral thesis), she said that she registered it in both their names at the laboratory.

Dr Recio-Hoyas has subsequently had her contract renewed as associate professor after an investigation by the university into her complaint of moral harassment.

Dr Arnaiz-Villena denies all the charges against him. He said he is undergoing a �public lynching,� which may have a political background. �I don't know whether it's just by chance, but problems started shortly after the Human Immunology thing,� he said, referring to events surrounding publication of a paper of his last year on the genetic profile of Palestinians.

This incident, believed to be the first time a paper published in a peer reviewed biomedical journal has been retracted as a result of political comments, began when Dr Arnaiz-Villena was invited to be a guest editor of the September issue of Human Immunology�the official journal of the American Society for Histocompatibility and Immunogenetics. His paper examined the genetic profile of Palestinians compared with Jews and other populations in the region. The study included a summary of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which prompted ferocious complaints.

Dr Nicole Suciu-Foca, editor in chief of the journal, and Dr Robert Lewis of the society's publications committee, condemned the paper in the October issue of the journal and stated that it had been deleted from the scientific literature. At the time, Dr Arnaiz-Villena, who was fired from the journal's editorial board, apologised for any offence caused by his paper but called the unprecedented action �unwise.�

Both the hospital and the university say that Dr Arnaiz- Villena's current charges have nothing to do with the Human Immunology affair.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1122636 - http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1122636

So the trial is clearly concerned to financial question between two laboratories and has nothing to do with the proof of this:

Which proves one thing that papers was politically motivated as

because the personality of a scientists has nothing to do with his research unless it had been proven. In the case of prof. Arnaiz-Villena the major question was in interpretation of the obtained results and political comment on Palestinian-Jewish conflict.

the Luca Cavalli-Sforza , Neil Risch and Alberto Piazza stated.

Those guys wrote a letter to Nature with disagreement of Arnaiz-Villena's results and their interpretation. They stated that using of one genetical marker for determination of the origin of a nation might lead to wrong conclusions. This was accepted by Villena in his response in the same issue of Nature where he also said that he is studying the problem using other genetical markes. Agressive tone of Cavalli-Sforza could be also explained by the fact that results obtained by Arnaiz-Villena contradict to the works of Cavalli-Sforza and company. Such wars happen in scientific community permanently and one can find them in every issue of Nature and Science.

and this lab publihed and one more poltical motivated genetic paper by show that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans

There was no such article from his lab. If I am wrong you are very welcome to correct me. Here are all articles of Villena with "japanese" keyword. Point the article that you mentioned.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=+japanese&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=Arnaiz+Villena+&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr - http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_q=+japanese&num=10&btnG=Search+Scholar&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_occt=any&as_sauthors=Arnaiz+Villena+&as_publication=&as_ylo=&as_yhi=&as_allsubj=all&hl=en&lr =

Obviously, you took this passage from Cavalli-Sforza's letter to Nature without much understanding what it is about:

The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.

So, this is related to a fact from the same paper of Arnaiz-Villena which indeed shows that using of one genetical marker might be dangerous. As for the agressive tone -- I already explained it.

So, basic conclusion is that professor Arnaiz-Villena is respected scientist whether his conclusions are true or not. And it is bad idea for the people who obviously are far from biology to make attempts compromise this person.

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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 19:19

Originally posted by Anton

So, basic conclusion is that professor Arnaiz-Villena is respected scientist whether his conclusions are true or not.

I agree with Anton that good professionals can make bad calls. Happens all the time.

Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 25-Mar-2007 at 19:24

Originally posted by Hellios

I agree with Anton that good professionals can make bad calls. Happens all the time.

And some people also believe that compromising of a scientist may compromise his results. This is obviously wrong -- every educated person see the difference between personality and what he is doing. One can find many examples.

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Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 03:47

There are scientific researches on this subject. One of the well known of it is:

Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Volume 1) of Martin Bernal.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0813512778/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5512283-7432008#reader-link - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0813512778/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5512283-7432008#reader-link

It is a quit nice and well documented book. I recommend you to read it. You will see how our perceptions can be manipulated.

Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2007 at 04:54

Originally posted by Alparslan

You will see how our perceptions can be manipulated.

Manipulated is the key work here. Black Athena is a bad joke as a book and dismissed by most academics. Still it can manipulate someone with no knowledge of history (it can do even worse to someone who knows some history and considers himself an expoert)

Posted By: think
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 05:45

This isnt a very common Greek look..
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/greekwomen/fani_drakopoulou.jpg

Hellios where are those soccer teams from ?

Also some of them players look slightly asiatic, Turkish prhaps.

Posted By: konstantinius
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 17:58

Originally posted by Alparslan

There are scientific researches on this subject. One of the well known of it is:

Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization (The Fabrication of Ancient Greece 1785-1985, Volume 1) of Martin Bernal.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0813512778/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5512283-7432008#reader-link - http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0813512778/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-5512283-7432008#reader-link

It is a quit nice and well documented book. I recommend you to read it. You will see how our perceptions can be manipulated.

Bernal is a linguist, not an archaeologist. His theories are based on plausibility (he admitts that himself on the opening chapter on the book), not fact.

A number of authors/scholars have countered Bernal's claims in a convincing way. Among others:

-Article by Robert L. Pounder entitled "Black Athena 2: History Without Rules" in The American Historical Review, Vol. 97, No 2 (April 1992)

-The most profound renouncement in my oppinion: "Black Athena Revisited" by Mary R. Lefkowitz and Guy McLean Rogers. Excellent arguments.

-Jacques Berlinerblau "Heresy in the University: The Black Athena Controversy and the Responsibilities of American Intellectuals", 1999

About a dozen articles by various authors can be found here: http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Indivindual%20Web%20Pages/BlackAthena.html - www.worldagesarchive.com/Indivindual%20Web%20Pages/BlackAthena.html

One of the most interesting is Mary R Lefkowitz's counter-response to Bernal's response to his critics. I like this woman!

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" I do disagree with what you say but I'll defend to my death your right to do so."

Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 18:05

Also some of them players look slightly asiatic, Turkish prhaps.

Please clarify which players you are talking about. I am really interested in your analysis of the phenotypes of certain peoples.