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Undeclared final war

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
Forum Discription: Debates on topical, current World politics
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17577
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 11:59
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Topic: Undeclared final war
Posted By: chimera
Subject: Undeclared final war
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 22:35
If the US refuses to sign Kyoto greenhouse gas treaty, and is the largest producer of global warming pollutants;
and if the eventual effect is irreversible global damage;
 and if that causes industrial, economic and population loss;
and if other countries also act the same way;
then is that an undeclared war of greater size than others?
chimera



Replies:
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2007 at 19:19
Depends on the impact of the polluted environment. Unless the US corrupts planet Earth enough so that other nations are in crisis and enough suffering for the people, then yes. They will not have to bother delcaring war, since America (Having the best intelligence in the world) would already know that they are under the threat. But US would most likely prevent this build-up. After all, US needs to survive as well. They are not that ignorant.

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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 01:50
You guys will realize how useless the Kyoto Protocol is, when China starts producing more greenhouse gas then the US.

China of course is a signer of the Kyoto Protocol, but falls under the "developing nation" category and as such doesn't have to follow the guidelines listed. This is the reason that the US didn't sign the treaty, since it would cripple our economy against that of China's and other nations that wouldn't have to cut down on emissions.


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 02:02
Originally posted by JanusRook

You guys will realize how useless the Kyoto Protocol is, when China starts producing more greenhouse gas then the US.

China of course is a signer of the Kyoto Protocol, but falls under the "developing nation" category and as such doesn't have to follow the guidelines listed. This is the reason that the US didn't sign the treaty, since it would cripple our economy against that of China's and other nations that wouldn't have to cut down on emissions.


That is true. Isn't China going to build one coal fired power plant a week for the next 10 years or something?


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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey


Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 11:08
I think I heard that, but they didn't say they were but would have to if they wanted to keep up with the energy demands.

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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 11:58
The kyoto protocol was just a gesture made by the big world players in a huge burst of diplomacy, nobody can enforce it, and only Denmark I believe out of all the signatories is on target to meet their promises. Ireland is a disgrace.
The Nuclear question must be raised again I believe, because it is unfeasible to expect the abstract blob that is society to stop driving cars and flying around the world in planes, much more feasible and realistic for the energy we all use to be created in alternative and efficient ways.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:08
Originally posted by Dolphin

The kyoto protocol was just a gesture made by the big world players in a huge burst of diplomacy, nobody can enforce it, and only Denmark I believe out of all the signatories is on target to meet their promises. Ireland is a disgrace.
The Nuclear question must be raised again I believe, because it is unfeasible to expect the abstract blob that is society to stop driving cars and flying around the world in planes, much more feasible and realistic for the energy we all use to be created in alternative and efficient ways.
 
Nuclear energy is not the answer. Personally I think the chances of a terrorist attack on a Nuclear facility is reason enough for us to refuse the use of nuclear energy, but here's an article that can phrase it in a more domineering light.
 
http://www.pha.org.nz/docs/Media/Viewpoints/Case%20against%20nuclear%20power.doc - http://www.pha.org.nz/docs/Media/Viewpoints/Case%20against%20nuclear%20power.doc


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:11
Are we talking of realism or idealism here? We could all don shawls and run round the forest hunting to eat, or we can realistically think about our energy centred society's future.
Plus, why should we let the terrorists decide the way we live our lives? Is that not what they want?


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:15
I'm not talking about terrorists deciding how we live our lives. But the reality is that one single terrorist attack on a Nuclear plant in a place such as Sellafield could cause an ecological disaster which would put the World Trade Center attacks (Whatever you believe the motive is there) into perspective. You talk to me about idealism and realism; Its clear that you are being idealistic in refusing to let terrorists deter you from building nuclear plants, when the consequences of nuclear facilities could be devastating both ecologically and for the human race.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:24

Well, deal with terrorism as a seperate issue, the energy crisis needs to be addressed, and neither biofuel or solar panels or wind turbines will be enough to replace fossil fuels as our primary source of energy. Simple fact is that the question of nuclear power is already simmering under the surface and will be raised seriously in the near future.

P.S:  Numerous nuclear plants already exist, including Sellafield, so if the danger is already there, how can you use the threat of attack as a valid reason to discount further, more safe and secure nuclear plants? 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:31
Originally posted by Dolphin

Well, deal with terrorism as a seperate issue, the energy crisis needs to be addressed, and neither biofuel or solar panels or wind turbines will be enough to replace fossil fuels as our primary source of energy. Simple fact is that the question of nuclear power is already simmering under the surface and will be raised seriously in the near future.

P.S:  Numerous nuclear plants already exist, including Sellafield, so if the danger is already there, how can you use the threat of attack as a valid reason to discount further, more safe and secure nuclear plants? 

Sure if you can't beat them join them, really admirable!


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:34
Biofuel will be the most likely fuel source to meet our energy needs. Its been touted that as the USA agricultural sector declines that biofuel will take the place that fields of corn once took.
 
And on another matter the current situation is a ticking timebomb. Not only are more nuclear power plants economically unfeasible but there is the increased risk of Nuclear waste. The disadvantages far outweigh the benefits of Nuclear power. I want to see full de-atomisation in the UK and further abroad.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 12:44

It is a known fact that if every inch of today's agricultural land was tranferred to biofuel, it still would not be enough to cover our energy needs.

 It's a complete fallacy to expect people to stop living their lives the way they are accustomed to, with huge taxation and penalties being the most realistic way of changing peoples behaviour. Mark my words, the question of nuclear energy will rear its albeit ugly head as the most feasible solution to our energy problems.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 00:00
I'd love to get a cave and live a simple life, but few problems remain.
 
- There are no electric plug-in
- They are all monoploized by the archeologists
- They make my food go cold
- Cavemen are raising rents
- Bats constantly badger for their rights
 
And the list goes on. It's unrealistic. Kyoto Protocal is a good thing that we should try to enforce as much as possible, but I feel that we are just procrastinating...


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http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">      
   
Join us.


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 06:58
Originally posted by Dolphin

It is a known fact that if every inch of today's agricultural land was tranferred to biofuel, it still would not be enough to cover our energy needs.

 It's a complete fallacy to expect people to stop living their lives the way they are accustomed to, with huge taxation and penalties being the most realistic way of changing peoples behaviour. Mark my words, the question of nuclear energy will rear its albeit ugly head as the most feasible solution to our energy problems.
 
Wave, wind, hydro, solar... The list goes on. The possibilities are there, we just need the consensus from the major investors in scientific research to develop these alternate forms of energy. You know the amount spent on researching nuclear power dwarfs that spent on wind power, yet wind power has become many many times more efficient with a fraction of nuclear powers researchs spending?


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 08:02
Wave is horribly inefficient, it does not even cover the energy costs of its construction. Wind power is only useful on a house-by-house basis and cannot possibly supply mains power to the large communities of today. Even then it is inefficient and noisy, making it even more undesirable in residential areas. Hydro electricity is, at least, useful. However, it does have quite disastrous effects on the environment in its own ways, and there are very few communities in the world who can gain their entire power needs from hydro-electric sources. Solar power, as it currently exists, is practically useless as a mains power source. What I would like to see, however, is the majority of buildings utilising solar panelling to supplement mains power needs. Solar power merits further research as it at least has the potential to be useful.

There are new forms of geothermal power under development and trial in Australia which I think could supply a decent amount of power. However these methods require very specific circumstances which are unlikely to be useful in most situations.

I think the best possible solution is for nuclear power to firstly be accepted in the developed nations. Nuclear power is cleaner, safer and more efficient than any other means of useful energy production. The next step is for the developed nations to stop discouraging the development of nuclear power in developing nations. If this is not done developing nations will have NO CHOICE but to rapidly increase the number of coal and oil power stations to match their rapidly rising energy requirements.

It is completely idiotic to try to force people who are already living in poor conditions and often starving, to give a stuff about the environment when it means they have no power. It is also hyprocritical. The best approach is to encourage nuclear power in the present, and pour resources into research into disposing of nuclear waste properly, and into the development of clean and renewable energy sources.


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Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 09:42

Ireland's hydro-power has already been maxed out, with just under 2.5% of our energy coming from it. Wave power is, as already said a useless innovation. The wind potential has been grossly exaggerated, and there are numerous reports of low-frequency humming in the vicinity of turbines, causing headaches in people and not allowing livestock to flourish. There is also only a very small proportion of countries that can realistically avail of wind power, with Ireland as an island having the greatest potential in Europe, yet only through putting turbines in every concievable corner of the country, including 200 off the Wicklow coastline, and even at that they would only cover 25% of our energy needs. We have no option at the moment but use more and more of our finite resources and as pekau rightly said we are just procratinating and making the problem worse for ourselves in the long run.

I am an honest person, and I can honestly say that I have no intention of giving up my home comforts, my television, my gas heater, my car (if I had one) or any other energy requiring luxury we are all accustomed to nowadays. In fact I go to a college 90miles from where I live. Am I going to cycle?? Neither are you. The only thing I will cut down on is air travel..BUT I will do some little things like everybody else, unfortunately these little things are acedemic on the larger scale and we need a realistic and progressive solution.

 Malheureusement pour le monde, la solution is Nuclear power.


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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 10:08
I'll join the bandwagon and say nuclear is the best way to go. Nuclear reactors are not terrorist threats in the least, first off, the shielding on the reactor is many feet of thick concrete, not even a jumbo jet crashing into this shield can bring it down. Trust me I've seen films where they tested the integrity of the domes. Besides that the reactor is only dangerous if the rods are in the "on" position. If the rods are "off" there is no danger besides the background radiation, kept sealed by said domes.

Besides I would like to believe terrorists aren't stupid enough to actually attack nuclear reactors. Many states that support terrorist organizations either use nuclear reactors or would like to use them, and if there was an actual attack on one, then world opinion would be so against nuclear power there could be a universal ban, it's just bad policy to screw up your benefactors business.

Also with nuclear waste, either shoot it off into space (trust me even if the launchcraft explodes all that will happen is the waste will fall into the atlantic ocean (assuming Cape Canaveral is the starting point) which isn't terrible devastating to the environment (how many nuclear subs are sunk at the bottom of the ocean?)) or we could designate a "dead area" where a certain zone is created that will be devoid of anything but the decontamination project (I'm a big fan of shoving all that crap into a volcano or other fissure.)


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 10:17
Ladies and Gentlemen, something I should have posted a long time ago:

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1957692,00.html - http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1957692,00.html
 
Science holds the answer. Nuclear power is:
 
Dangerous
Inefficient (Economically so)
Has the spectre of Nuclear waste over its head.
 
Solar power has the potential to supply most of, if not all of our energy needs in the future. Countries like Algeria and Saudi Arabia could eventually export electricity in its raw form once their oil resources run out by using up millions of square miles of their desert to create electricity. Just read the article.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 10:58
Denis nuclear power is NOT dangerous. The life expectancy of a worker in a coal power plant is alot shorter than one in a nuclear plant. You can fly a plane into a power plant, which is effectively a giant block of concrete and lead. It won't to squat. You can walk into a nuclear reactor and try you hardest to cause a nuclear meltdown and you wouldn't be able to succeed as the computer would stop you.

It is also far from economically inefficient. Alot less uranium has to be mined to fuel a nuclear reactor than coal for a coal power plant. Contrary to popular opinion, building a nuclear reactor is not even particularly difficult.

The nuclear waste issue is easily dealt with in the short term. Storage devices that can hold waste for thousands of years have been developed, and a sea-based launch platform could easily deposit our waste in deep-space. In the long term we can make the space-deposit system more effective or develop a way to neutralise the waste more quickly (accelerate decay).

In addition solar power is basically useless as-is. It takes HUGE amounts of space to create the equivalent output from one coal station. Research needs to be done to make it as efficient as it has the potential to be. Also, you can't exactly "export" electricity except to close neighbours as flow is lost over distances rather rapidly.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 11:23
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Denis nuclear power is NOT dangerous. The life expectancy of a worker in a coal power plant is alot shorter than one in a nuclear plant. You can fly a plane into a power plant, which is effectively a giant block of concrete and lead. It won't to squat. You can walk into a nuclear reactor and try you hardest to cause a nuclear meltdown and you wouldn't be able to succeed as the computer would stop you.

It is also far from economically inefficient. Alot less uranium has to be mined to fuel a nuclear reactor than coal for a coal power plant. Contrary to popular opinion, building a nuclear reactor is not even particularly difficult.

The nuclear waste issue is easily dealt with in the short term. Storage devices that can hold waste for thousands of years have been developed, and a sea-based launch platform could easily deposit our waste in deep-space. In the long term we can make the space-deposit system more effective or develop a way to neutralise the waste more quickly (accelerate decay).

In addition solar power is basically useless as-is. It takes HUGE amounts of space to create the equivalent output from one coal station. Research needs to be done to make it as efficient as it has the potential to be. Also, you can't exactly "export" electricity except to close neighbours as flow is lost over distances rather rapidly.
 
So you defend one of the major flaws of nuclear power by declaring we can simply blast it into outter space from a platform Big%20smileLOL, I agree totally


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 11:54
Pretty much all of life's problems can be solved with high explosives. Big%20smile

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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 12:12
Originally posted by Zaitsev



In addition solar power is basically useless as-is. It takes HUGE amounts of space to create the equivalent output from one coal station. Research needs to be done to make it as efficient as it has the potential to be. Also, you can't exactly "export" electricity except to close neighbours as flow is lost over distances rather rapidly.
 
Actually, if you read that article it would take roughly 0.5% of the worlds desert to supply us (IE, Europe) with electricity if the appropriate technology was developed. You cannot argue that Nuclear power is safer than solar power though... Personally i don't care if it takes more space than a Nuclear power plant, its proven fact that living in relatively close proximity to a Nuclear power plant is bad for your health. There is a small seaside town near Dundalk over the sea from Sellafield Nuclear station that is a polluted mess. last time I was there, when I was about eleven there were lifeguards standing around telling the kids not to swim in the water because it was particularly manky that day. Thats just one little piece of anecdotal evidence but its an example of the widespread ecological disasters Nuclear power plants cause meaning the amount of space they take up becomes an irrelevance.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 15:52

Actually, if you read that article it would take roughly 0.5% of the worlds desert to supply us (IE, Europe) with electricity if the appropriate technology was developed.


Okay, so we take .5% of the worlds deserts, now we have to make sure the solar panels are protected from sandstorms, and we have to repair the scratched panels that won't work at optimum efficiency, then we have to house repair people who have to live near these god forsaken parts of the world. This requires an impressive highway system (to get to the solar panels) that must be maintained (good luck preventing desertification). Then you need to have an excellent supply transport so that these repairmen don't get stranded in the desert due to warfare or such, you think the US wants all it's power stranded in the Sahara or something? I thought thats what we're trying to get rid of. Besides thats at our current level of power use, power usage has shown to be increasing rapidly and will double at a high pace, so in say 200 years we'll need to cover 100 % of all deserts. Granted nuclear power suffers from this same problem but it can create much more power in a far smaller space.


You cannot argue that Nuclear power is safer than solar power though.


Certainly can't but if energy production was based on safety measures there would be no coal mines or natural gas stations in the Gulf of Mexico. It's based on profit and morality has very little to do with it. Solar power has a huge investment for not so much profit (I mean you think a nations going to give its land for free? Rent costs money and unless you want to nationalize the electric supply industry solar power just isn't profitable.)


Personally i don't care if it takes more space than a Nuclear power plant, its proven fact that living in relatively close proximity to a Nuclear power plant is bad for your health.


Then here's a solution, don't live next to a nuclear power plant, declare the area a "no-entrance" area, like a high-level security military base, fences don't always keep people out, they tell people they don't want to come in as well.


Thats just one little piece of anecdotal evidence but its an example of the widespread ecological disasters Nuclear power plants cause meaning the amount of space they take up becomes an irrelevance.


Then regulate where nuclear power plants go, personally I don't want a nuclear power plant anywhere near an open system like a river or lake. They can remain set aside using a closed coolant system, which some do utilize.



So you defend one of the major flaws of nuclear power by declaring we can simply blast it into outter space from a platform Big%20smileLOL, I agree totally


Unfortunately this is unlikely as it costs $20,000 per pound to ship something into space, and until we get a space elevator (which would bring costs to $400 a pound) I think sending it into the earth is the best bet. (Not underground, but down into molten fissures since theirs all ready radiation from the earths core there.)


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 21:54
True blasting into space is expensive, but people get upset when you bury things LOL

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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 07:10
Why is everyone ignoring the fact that uranium is in fact a finite resource like oil, gas or coal? yes, low grade ore can be used instead of uranium to power electricity but that eventually means that the effect it has on the environment is damn near identical to the effects of burning fossil fuels.
 
And of course the deserts will be expensive to build on; so are Nuclear power plants. The average Nuclear power plant costs around 2 billion sterling to build! Talk about hearing what you want to hear. On the scale of things, solar power would be both cheaper, more efficient and better for the environment. Plus the sun is a non-finite energy source.
 
I've also been hearing some good things about recent development of tidal energy sources. Throwing all the eggs in one basket is a bad idea but the reality is that reknewables can supply most of (If not all) of our energy needs. If there is one thing we can be sure of in this world then it is the possibility of non-intentional human error. I'm not prepared to take a chance with a nuclear power plant which potentially has the ability to kill thousands.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 07:15
And another thing:
 
Originally posted by That guardian article that no-one bothered reading

The outlook is not promising. More than 30 countries last week agreed to spend £7bn on an experimental fusion reactor in France which critics say will not produce any electricity for 50 years, if at all.

That amount of money would provide a lot of CSP power, a proven, working and simple technology that would work now, not in 2056.

 
Why is there such a fear of investing in reknewables? It is proven that the CSP technology can and will work. The only thing holding us back is politics and the establishment seems to have an agenda on mind to build nuclear power plants when all rationale points against it.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 07:37
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Denis nuclear power is NOT dangerous. The life expectancy of a worker in a coal power plant is alot shorter than one in a nuclear plant. You can fly a plane into a power plant, which is effectively a giant block of concrete and lead. It won't to squat. You can walk into a nuclear reactor and try you hardest to cause a nuclear meltdown and you wouldn't be able to succeed as the computer would stop you.
 
As I think you are too young to remember Tchernobyl, I can see where your ignorance comes from. I would however very much advise you to do a little more research before making such silly remarks.
If nothing else it would be respectful to the estimated 600.000 people who have been contaminated with radiation, 4000 of which died or will die of cancer because of the disaster. (this is the absolute lowest estimation, other numbers up to as much as 60.000 are cosidered possible)  
 
And the way things went, this was the good case scenario. The bad case scenario would have killed off half of Europe and make the whole of Eastern Europe uninhabitable.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: hugoestr
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 12:06
Moved to Current Affairs.

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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 12:29

And the way things went, this was the good case scenario. The bad case scenario would have killed off half of Europe and make the whole of Eastern Europe uninhabitable.


True, but the best case scenario is Three Mile Island, where a near meltdown was averted before the shielding went bad thanks to good information.

The soviets at chernobyl at all kinds of separate problems that contributed to the meltdown. First they were taxing the system to the limits because a nearby city requested more power and another reactor nearby was offline. Then at the time of the incident they were understaffed. Also there was faulty instrumentation that was giving incorrect readings to the manager of the plant. (These readings would have been contradicted by other readings that no one saw because of the understaffing.)

Mind you nuclear power isn't safe, it's just cheap and reliable as an energy source.


Why is everyone ignoring the fact that uranium is in fact a finite resource like oil, gas or coal?


Yes it is, but the amount of nuclear power plants you can have is also a finite resource, and it takes years upon years to "burn out" uranium rods. So we'll have enough uranium to power the world for a thousand years, or until our civilization starts harnessing another form of energy we don't know about.

And of course the deserts will be expensive to build on; so are Nuclear power plants. The average Nuclear power plant costs around 2 billion sterling to build!


That's initial costs, and not at all expensive when you consider coal and natural gas plants, as well as renewable energy plants and infrastructure.


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 17:01
A thousand years is a slightly optimistic projection.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 19:31
The sun is a finite resource, strictly speaking.
 
There is no evidence to say that Dundalk is a more unsafe place to live than anywhere else in Ireland, just a statistic that states instances of cancer are higher there, with no link to Sellafield and could be due to a plethora of factors.
 
I am too young to remember Chernobyll also, but I can study it like anybody else. It was the exception to the rule as it was built and maintained horrendously up to the eventual meltdown itself. Countries like Britain and Germany and France all use nuclear power extensively and safely up to the present day.
 
The figures regarding Chernobyll are disparate to say the least. Less than 60 people can directly contribute their deaths to the disaster,and these people were the cleanup operators exposed to ridiculous amounts of radiation. And modern surveys of the land area around the reactor have found abundant flora and fauna there as well.
 
We just can't keep telling ourselves that renewable sources will cover all of our energy needs. Of course develop them and harness them, but because of our present and growing reliance on energy, we need a realistic solution, at least until we stop using the levels of energy we presently are guilty of, something that will not happen today or tomorrow, or even in the near future.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 23:05
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

As I think you are too young to remember Tchernobyl, I can see where your ignorance comes from. I would however very much advise you to do a little more research before making such silly remarks.
If nothing else it would be respectful to the estimated 600.000 people who have been contaminated with radiation, 4000 of which died or will die of cancer because of the disaster. (this is the absolute lowest estimation, other numbers up to as much as 60.000 are cosidered possible)  
 
And the way things went, this was the good case scenario. The bad case scenario would have killed off half of Europe and make the whole of Eastern Europe uninhabitable.


Actually I have studied nuclear power quite significantly. Chernobyl was over 2decades ago, with inferior technology and hopeless workers. A better example of nuclear power is One Mile Island. Here the inept plant workers did everything they could possibly do wrong, and the safety systems in the technology still averted a meltdown. Since then the technology has progressed even further. Perhaps you should have done a little research in the last 20 years.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 07:01
Have you even looked into the possibility of CSP Emmet? Its safer and a technology that works now. There are flagship projects going on in California as we speak. Its time we got a little cooperation from the powers that be to stop spending f**k all on solar and seriously look at developing the CSP. If it doesn't work like the scientists say it won't I'll support Nuclear because there will be no other choice. other than that, I support the CSP.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2007 at 07:34
we'll be talking about cold fusion next


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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 03:48

we'll be talking about cold fusion next


Yea, but we might as well be talking about cures for cancer and rocket cars and cities on the moon. Cold fusion doesn't exist right now, and although it would be a better alternative, it isn't feasible with current manufacturing processes, fission reactors are and I think they are the best choice taking all the pros and cons.


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 06:41
Have you even read the article Emmet? Perhaps you are afraid that there is an alternative for Nuclear Power out there and workable.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 09:02
Why would one be afraid of that? If there's a PRACTICAL alternative which is as clean, then it's a good thing. However there's a difference between putting lots of money into research, and meeting the power needs of today.

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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 13:20
The CSP can meet those power needs. Does no-one want to bother to refute the claims made in the article? I'm no scientist by any stretch of the imagination and genuinly would like to learn others opinion about the plans for the CSP.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 10:02
Originally posted by Zaitsev


Actually I have studied nuclear power quite significantly. Chernobyl was over 2decades ago, with inferior technology and hopeless workers. A better example of nuclear power is One Mile Island. Here the inept plant workers did everything they could possibly do wrong, and the safety systems in the technology still averted a meltdown. Since then the technology has progressed even further. Perhaps you should have done a little research in the last 20 years.
 
This is completely irrelevant. It is not at all about how big the possibility is it can go wrong, it is only about the fact that there always is a possibility it can go wrong. The consequences of a major disaster would be so big that even a fraction of a chance is still too big. The fact that on One Mile Island a disaster was averted sais nothing about the possibility for the next time to go as well.
 
Almost any disaster is a result of a number of factors in which more than one thing went fatally wrong. The knowledge that this is so did not lead to an end of freak disasters, so it is useless knowledge that Chernobyl was a freak accident.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 10:11
Aelgifu I'm noticing a trend in your posts. They seem to abandon the notions of practicality, and concentrate solely on the "what if everything that could possibly go wrong does" scenarios, even though if we followed that approach we would never have discovered fire.

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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 13:13
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Aelgifu I'm noticing a trend in your posts. They seem to abandon the notions of practicality, and concentrate solely on the "what if everything that could possibly go wrong does" scenarios, even though if we followed that approach we would never have discovered fire.
 
 
 
I would feel better about nuke power plants if the designers of them had the same attitude Aelgifu has.  When you are dealing with something like nuclear power it's wise to try and think of the unthinkable.
If that attitude was prevalent then maybe we wouldn't have things like Nuclear reactors built directly on top of active earthquake faults.
 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 19:18

Denis, Of course I read the article on concentrated solar power and it sounds very exciting and innovating and fantastic, and if it is feasible, as it 'appears' to be, then brilliant. We're all saved.

 
BUT, the development of CSP would require huge international and indeed global co-operation, and would give traditionally poorer countries like Sudan an disproportionately powerful position in world politics. Who would control these 'farms'? Who would control prices, supply, upkeep etc etc? Are we not really looking at an ideal world where money and politics don't come into effect and everybody trusts everybody else with the supply and maintenance of their entire economy, even if these countries are on the other side of the world? Maybe that's why Bush and Blair haen't looked at CSP, because they see the reality and implications of its development, and know that on a political level it would be very dangerous?
 
Just a thought, it seems to me that the practicalities of CSP on a political level are flawed.


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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 03:59
Denis the far better alternative to the CSP would be the creation of solar panels built on the surface of the moon that would collect this energy and then microwave beam it back to earth.......


Wait a minute, even better! Build a bunch of nuclear fission plants on the moon, (since they produce more power per foot than solar panels) then microwave beam that power back to earth. They could be mostly automated, and even if something went wrong it wouldn't be a big deal, the best of both worlds, screw my chuck crap into a volcano solution. Although I guess this is an addendum to my shoot it into space solution.


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 06:22
We already have given a disproportianate amount of diplomatic power to the likes of Saudi Arabia exactly because they supply so many of our energy needs. The development of the CSP would be no different than our current degenerative system of importing oil from the Middle East. No better or worse than our current self destructive system :)

And anyway, the possibilities of forming a multi-continent electricity grid is indeed exciting. Hydro from the as of yet untapped wonder of Siberia and the not-exactly-at-maximum-potential Norway; Wind and wave farms in coastel regions such as Western Ireland, Scotland, Portugal, Northern Spain etc. Solar from North Africa, Arabia and potentially central asia. The question of biomass can be answered quite easily - Take away the damn EU subsidies on farming, leaving European farmers with the challenge of remaining competitive. The emerging market of Biomass can indeed make up quite a lot of our energy needs.

Maybe I'm a dreamer, an idealist, but I'd rather see us make an attempt at really developing reknewables rather than look back in fifty years time as I ring your home number to say "I told you so" as I watch some tin pot Eastern European 'democracy' such as Belarus incompetantly watch over a Nuclear Power plant which melts down causing thousands of deaths, or oversee a crazed airplane crash into Sellafield Nuclear plant by dissidents of whatever political persuasion, be they radical Islamofascists, Anarchists, communists, fascists or whatever.

/rant.


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 07:39
Small issue - you can fly dozens of planes into a nuclear plant and it won't do a darn thing.

Having read up on CSP I still don't believe it is feasible until more research has been done to make it more efficient. The solar panel technology itself is not up to scratch. It is also, as you said, a dream to think of a multi-continent power grid in this political climate. Alot of people have also ignored the fact that by the time the power from Norway gets to France, let alone America or Australia, it will be just about useless.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 10:52
I don't see how it could be useless. DO you know how electricity grids work?

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 11:50
Originally posted by Denis

I don't see how it could be useless. DO you know how electricity grids work?
 
Power is lost during transmission. This is what I think he means by calling it useless. He is claiming that a power line of that length will lose too much power to be effective.


Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 14:43
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Small issue - you can fly dozens of planes into a nuclear plant and it won't do a darn thing.

Having read up on CSP I still don't believe it is feasible until more research has been done to make it more efficient. The solar panel technology itself is not up to scratch. It is also, as you said, a dream to think of a multi-continent power grid in this political climate. Alot of people have also ignored the fact that by the time the power from Norway gets to France, let alone America or Australia, it will be just about useless.
 
Actually, multinational electrical power has been shared for decades. Nothing new here. As long as there are enough voltages stepped up by a transformer the distance travelled can be roughly 7000 kilometers.
 
http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/technical-articles/transmission/cigre/present-limits-of-very-long-distance-transmission-systems/index.shtml - http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/technical-articles/transmission/cigre/present-limits-of-very-long-distance-transmission-systems/index.shtml
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission
 
 


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Posted By: lennel
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 18:36
The easiest short-term fix is to cut back on consumption.  The technology is already here.  In many cases it just requires just a small amount of investment as it is actually more cost effective in the long term.  People are naturally slow to embrace new technology.  Enact some legislation to encourage it.
 
read this link:
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2186 - http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2186
"To obtain in one year the amount of energy contained in one cubic mile of oil, each year for 50 years we would need to have produced the numbers of dams, nuclear power plants, coal plants, windmills, or solar panels"
 
We use approximately 1 cubic mile of oil per year.  Its equivalent replacement in alternative energy:
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 21:01
I am aware power has been exported for some time, but this is a highly inefficient process with much signal loss. In addition, the problem of "dirty power" occurs, which can cause problems in alot of appliances, especially computers.

Looking at that "alertnative energy" diagram I would say that nuclear power is the most environmentally friendly option.


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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 06:53
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Aelgifu I'm noticing a trend in your posts. They seem to abandon the notions of practicality, and concentrate solely on the "what if everything that could possibly go wrong does" scenarios, even though if we followed that approach we would never have discovered fire.
 
I'm also noticing a trend. You seem to be suffering from a chronic short-sightedness, constantly focused on short term satisfaction with little or no care for any future effects at all. If we would all follow your course, we will have poisioned our world into a uninhabitable dead rock within a couple of decades.
 
Fire, or pretty much any other source of energy including fossile fuel, water, wind and solar energy, does in absolutely no way have the possibility of making a significant portion of the earth uninhabitable for several centuries. Nuclear power does. Plenty of reason to go for any alternative what ever it is.
 
Nuclear power is not safe, it is not environmentally friendly, and although the price may be low the cost is higher than we can afford.
 
If we would build more nuclear power stations, the chances it will go wrong somewhere increases. Simple maths.
The fact that it already did go wrong in an American nuclear power plant proves that money, safety measures, regular maintenance and such does nothing to excude possible risks. If it can go wrong in America, it can go a lot worse in poor countries. The USSR won't have been the only country not to take safety and maintenance too seriously. Encouraging the building of Nuclear power plants is asking for more trouble.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 07:27
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

I'm also noticing a trend. You seem to be suffering from a chronic short-sightedness, constantly focused on short term satisfaction with little or no care for any future effects at all. If we would all follow your course, we will have poisioned our world into a uninhabitable dead rock within a couple of decades.
 
Fire, or pretty much any other source of energy including fossile fuel, water, wind and solar energy, does in absolutely no way have the possibility of making a significant portion of the earth uninhabitable for several centuries. Nuclear power does. Plenty of reason to go for any alternative what ever it is.
 
Nuclear power is not safe, it is not environmentally friendly, and although the price may be low the cost is higher than we can afford.
 
If we would build more nuclear power stations, the chances it will go wrong somewhere increases. Simple maths.
The fact that it already did go wrong in an American nuclear power plant proves that money, safety measures, regular maintenance and such does nothing to excude possible risks. If it can go wrong in America, it can go a lot worse in poor countries. The USSR won't have been the only country not to take safety and maintenance too seriously. Encouraging the building of Nuclear power plants is asking for more trouble.


Wow, you really have been affected by the propaganda. Nuclear waste, properly disposed of, does not make any area of the Earth uninhabitable. You accuse me of being short-sighted, when you just said that fossil fuels don't make areas uninhabitable. If we're not careful they'll make the whole Earth uninhabitable.

Nuclear Power IS much safer than just about any power source around. Do you know how many people have died from coal mining? In accidents at coal plants? Alot more than died in Chernobyl and all Uranium mining combined. Thousands of people have died in dam construction around the world.

Nuclear Power is also alot more environmentally friendly than coal, or oil or even gas power. In many ways its also alot more environmentally friendly than hydro-electric, which disrupts the eco-system and water cycle significantly. The amount of waste produced by a nuclear reactor is miniscule when compared to that of a coal power plant, and oil is even worse.

The One Mile Island incident is damn good proof that modern nuclear power is safe. The incompetent workers did EVERYTHING wrong, and the system itself still easily averted disaster. If you can come up with a practical alternative which won't polute the atmosphere beyond breathability, please tell me.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:31
I think he was talking about the effects a nuclear fallout has on farmland, not on nuclear waste itself.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:33
Solar energy, as pointed out above, wind energy, earth-warmth systems, etc. There are plenty.
 
Congrats, Not only have you managed to completely and utterly miss my point, you also contradict yourself in other posts in your haste to talk yourself out of your mistakes.
I could go further on this, but you wouldn't get it anyway, and I have far better things to spend my time on than you.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 08:35
Originally posted by Denis

I think he was talking about the effects a nuclear fallout has on farmland, not on nuclear waste itself.
 
Thanx denis, you're right. But I have wasted enough effort on this.
BTW I'm a she.


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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 09:13
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Solar energy, as pointed out above, wind energy, earth-warmth systems, etc. There are plenty.
 
Congrats, Not only have you managed to completely and utterly miss my point, you also contradict yourself in other posts in your haste to talk yourself out of your mistakes.
I could go further on this, but you wouldn't get it anyway, and I have far better things to spend my time on than you.


Cop out.

Regardless, I have already said "earth-warmth" systems are useful. However these systems can only be used in some areas of the world. The majority are not suitable. Solar and wind energy ARE NOT VIABLE. Just the land costs to build them are enormous, and they don't even produce enough energy to pay for their own construction.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 09:55
Originally posted by Zaitsev

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Solar energy, as pointed out above, wind energy, earth-warmth systems, etc. There are plenty.
 
Congrats, Not only have you managed to completely and utterly miss my point, you also contradict yourself in other posts in your haste to talk yourself out of your mistakes.
I could go further on this, but you wouldn't get it anyway, and I have far better things to spend my time on than you.


Cop out.

Regardless, I have already said "earth-warmth" systems are useful. However these systems can only be used in some areas of the world. The majority are not suitable. Solar and wind energy ARE NOT VIABLE. Just the land costs to build them are enormous, and they don't even produce enough energy to pay for their own construction.
 
Land prices in the Sahara are hardly steep. And the land prices in the atlantic ocean... No-one is idiotic enough to suggest building wave or solar farms in high land value areas. Places like the Sahara and the Eastern Atlantic ocean have a very small 'value' affixed to them.
 
Aelgifu:
 
I usually assume that someone is male when they are on a message board before they post otherwise. Don't know why that is! (Maybe a higher proportion of men use messageboards, I dunno)


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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 10:47
 Control measures limit industrial and agricultural activities reducing the range of products the area was able to export. This would have lead to a fall in local incomes. Furthermore reduced investment occurs due to a perception of an unsafe “lifestyle” within affected areas.

·        Following the accident 116,000 people had to be evacuated and between 1990 and 1995 an additional 210,000 people were resettled.  This created a need to build a new town named Slavutich for the personnel of the Chernobyl power plant.

·        Villages had to be decontaminated and major work had to be carried out on infrastructure for example water and gas. The closure of Reactor 4 and the “freeze” on construction of new reactors reduced the availability of electricity supplies.

·        Demographic indications in 'contaminated' areas suggest that these areas are experiencing a decline as:

o       The birth rate has decreased

o       The work force has migrated from contaminated areas to uncontaminated areas thus in turn resulting in a shortage of labour and professional staff.

·        The effected areas suffered major disruption to normal life and economic activity in particular with regard to agriculture and forestry production.

·        $12.8 Billon of disruption occurred to the Soviet Economy.

·        A “victim” mentality has occurred in the area due restrictions of activities making life difficult and unsettling.

 The official death toll of Chernobyl is put at 42, no one believes that, scientists and other European authorities place it at about 3,000, from date of accident to one year later.
 
The "Dead Zone" surrounding the area is 50kms in radius, this will not be inhabitable for 600 years.
 
When you have a fire or other accident at a fossil fuel power plant, you put the fire out, repair the damage and it's over.  With nuke it's permanent. 


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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 10:50

Of course endorse the development of alternative sorces of energy, but unless our behaviour as a race changes, then alternative sources will not be enough to cover ouf increasing energy needs. 

I think everyone can agree on that.

BUT, I still think that nuclear energy cannot be disregarded as an option. What if CSP is not viable, after all it is hypothetical on the scale that is required..What other option will we have? I don't want a nuclear reactor near me or my kids in the future, but if we don't want to change our behaviour, then we may have to change our energy sources.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 10:53
Well the only reason that these 'sun-states' aren't developing the CSP infrastructure as we speak is because they are short sighted; the fossil fuel industry is making them far too much money at the moment. Wait a few more years down the line when oil production will peak (i think i read somewhere that that is to be in 2008) and we should see a lot more enthusiasm for solar coming from these countries. Western democracies have a responsability to invest in these technologies now, or at least acknowledge their worth. Its no secret that many western countries, particularly Britain, seem to have an agenda to build more nuclear plants no matter what.

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 11:03
That's one year denis, duh! Thumbs%20Up
 
There is no secret conspiracy to make loads of nuclear plants in Britain in order to destroy the planet, they just acknowledge the benefits of nuclear power, especially in such a highly populated island. There has been prudent risk assesment carried out and the benefits simply outweighed the dangers.


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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 11:10
So you don't believe that if every country across the world started building nuclear plants en masse that the risks of a disaster wouldn't increase, even if the chances of a meltdown are ridiculously low (Lets just say for arguments sake, 0.03% or something like that) Take into account that at present nations such as North Korea have nuclear power stations. And its a bit of a no brainer that when Kim Jon Il dies something seriously mad will happen over there. Who is going to take control of the electricity supply without a central administration for example? The variables and risks associated with nuclear power are too great. FFS, nuclear plants have been built on fault lines, showing the stupidity of some of the designers. I simply don't trust some of these people to build plants which have the ability to decide the fate of certain parts of this planet.  (And you must accept that if god forbid anything happens in Sellafield, Ireland is f**ked)

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 11:54
The example you gave was Britain, and I responded to that. Ireland is in big trouble if Sellafield blows, IF it blows, which would not mean meltdown, it would have to mean an explosion from within about the size of a nuke. Yes, of course the risk increases. But the question is here, do we change our behaviour or do we create ways to facilitate it? If it is the former, then nuclear plants are not necessary, if the latter they most likely and unfortunately are.

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Posted By: Denis
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 07:00
I would have a lot more confidence in Nuclear power if they weren't built in places like Southern USA at the gulf of Mexico or in California along the San Andreas faultline. Thats just common sense!

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"Death belongs to God alone. By what right do men touch that unknown thing"

Victor Hugo


Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 17:57

I would have a lot more confidence in Nuclear power if they weren't built in places like Southern USA at the gulf of Mexico or in California along the San Andreas faultline. Thats just common sense!


So if those plants were decommissioned and double their number was built in say Montana you'd be okay with that?


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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.


Posted By: Dawn
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 23:50
Originally posted by Zaitsev

. Solar and wind energy ARE NOT VIABLE. Just the land costs to build them are enormous, and they don't even produce enough energy to pay for their own construction.
 
acually that is not true. The wind turbines that are poping up an large numbers 40km from my place cost about a million dollars to build and pay for themselves in less that 5 years.  produce enough electricity in 35 min of operation to supply a house for a month.
 
Their biggest flaw is that they are undependable in terms that you can't say forsure when the wind is going to blow,so they do not run at full capacity. When the have supplied there quota they are shut down. The biggest problem is there isn't the storage facility to store all the energy that they can produce for times when the wind isn't blowing.


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