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Ancient Chinese military tactics

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16520
Printed Date: 11-Aug-2022 at 23:58
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Topic: Ancient Chinese military tactics
Posted By: Siege Tower
Subject: Ancient Chinese military tactics
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 06:06
hello, here's a very famous one, some of you probabbly have heard this already.

During the waring age,  Kingdom Yan launched an invasion on Kingdom Qi.
the Yan army was led by the famous general Le Yi, who somehow convinced 3 other kingdoms to take part in the invision, thus, in less than one year, the united army conquered the most part of Qi, with only two major cities left, Ju Cheng and Ji Mo. the 3 other kingdom pulled back their army shortly after they got their share of territories, and left only yan army that was still fighting.the situation in Ji Mo was very bad, the general of the city ws killed during the battle. Tian Dan, who was a relative of the king, became the defender of Ji Mo shortly after, he first spread rumours that Le Yi will become the King of Qi after he conquer Ji Mo, but the king of yan did not take it seriously. Follows the death of the King of Yan, the new King become very suspicious towards Le Yi and eventually replaced him with general Qi Jie .
Le Yi then spread a rumour that by digging the grave of Qi acestry( highest offence) will weaken Qi people within Ji Mo. Qi people was furious when Yan army digged their acestry grave, swore that they will fight until death.

the next day, Tian Dan launched an attack on Yan army, first he selected 1000 bulls, decrated them with colourful cloth and equiped sharp daggers on the horn.At night, Le yi launched a surprise attack on Qi army camp, they first, dip the tail of the bulls into fuels, then started to burn them, the bulls then started to ran wildly toward the Yan camp, and follows 5000 well equiped soidiers. the attack wiped out thousands the Yan soidiers, and within a year, Tian Dan recaptured all the territories lost during the invasion.


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Replies:
Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 06:31
Here's another one,
Ma Yuan( http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E9%A9%AC%E6%8F%B4&variant=zh-cn - 马援 ) was a famous general who played very important role in the restablish of Han dynasty.
In a battle against Shu Jineng( whom i believed belongs to a minority race), Shu's soildier were very well trained and equiped with heavy armours( could they be Romans by any chance?), was proven to be very powerful. Ma YUan first oberved a path where Shu's soidiers transport supplies, it ws a narrow and small path. Ge than placed magnets on bothe sides of the path, and ordered his troops to equip leather armours, when Shu's heavy armoured soidiers came, they were attracted by the magnetic field, and Han soidiers who were wearing leather armours, captured thousands of enemy troops and a handful of supplies.


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Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 13:49
magnets ?? they had magnets are you sure?


Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 15:37
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Ge than placed magnets on bothe sides of the path, and ordered his troops to equip leather armours, when Shu's heavy armoured soidiers came, they were attracted by the magnetic field, and Han soidiers who were wearing leather armours, captured thousands of enemy troops and a handful of supplies.

Thats what you describe as a physical impossiblity.
1) You can't build permanent iron magnets that strong
2) permanent Rare Earth magnets have only been discover recently, are extremely expensive, and too brittle to deploy in such a scale or situation
3) Electro-magnets need high electric current. Which was not available at the time.

It is quite possible that the chinese had permanent iron magnets up to 2500 years ago, but quite fictional that you could use them to pick up a man, or a suit of armour.


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 09:21

Well that's what it says on the orginal text.

 permanent Rare Earth magnets have only been discover recently, are extremely expensive, and too brittle to deploy in such a scale or situation
 
it is possible that the magnets was only used to slow down the the enemy instead of picking up a man, if you want, i could provide the original text.


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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 15:46
Just because the original texts say it, doesn't make it more true.

Rare earth magnets require modern manufactoring techniques (I don't know which ones but I'm willing to bet you couldn't do it 200 years ago), to extract. The only way of doing this now would be to use electromagnets


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 09:11
what you are saying may be true, but you still counldn t prove that the original text is lying, they have no reason to lie.

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Posted By: Preobrazhenskoe
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 16:55
This should turn out to be a very promising thread. Good intro Siege Tower, I'll contribute something more later. As for now, I've got final exams I'm studying for! Lol.

Take care,
Eric

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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2006 at 07:14
Here s another one.
 
the famous Ming general Qi Jiguang invented a ume tatic during the battle against Wuo Kou( Japnese pirates).
it is called ume tactic because it is formed by 36 groups with 6 man in each group. each group consist of 2 man who were equiped with shield and daggers, while behind the shield, there are 2 man equiped with long spears, and two crossbow man behind the spears. this was proven to be very efficient during the battle, usually 6 groups forms a command. Qi often use 6 commend as the strike force with light calvery behinf their back.  


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Posted By: BigL
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 18:35
How about Zhuge liangs empty fort strategy the fort is open with no defenders in sight the attackers get scared of ambush and retreat so he won with 10 men agaisnt 10,000.
 
Also he dug pits into the ground to kill enemy cavalry.


Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 23:26
Zhuge liang was very famous and i am sure you know that, but he was strong in diplomat and administration, and he was minor in military, but what you wrote really did happen, but most of the well known story about him are probably fictional, but he was nevertheless a brilliant man.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 21:09
Fun fun. Here's another one.

Battle of Red Cliffs should be considered as one of the greatest victory in Chinese history and, quite frankly, in the world.

Warning. Flood of copied texts from Wikipedia. Type "Battle of the Red Cliffs" in wikipedia for reference... I was too lazy to put it into my own words. Gomen, comrades.

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By 208, the Duke of Wei, Cao Cao, controlled all of the North China Plain. He completed a successful campaign against the Wuhuan in the winter of 207, thus securing his northern frontier. Almost immediately afterward, his army turned south in the autumn of 208, aiming to eliminate his main southern rivals swiftly. Meanwhile, Liu Biao, Governor of Jing province, died in that year and his successor meekly surrendered.

Liu Bei, then at garrison at Fan (modern Xiangfan), quickly fled south with a large refugee population following him. He was pursued by Cao Cao's elite cavalry, and was surrounded at the Battle of Changban. Liu further fled east to Xiakou, where he liaised with Sun Quan's emissary Lu Su. Liu's main advisor Zhuge Liang was sent down the Yangtze to negotiate a mutual front against Cao Cao with the state of Wu. Zhuge Liang's eloquence and Wu's chief commander, Zhou Yu's support finally persuaded Sun Quan, to agree on the alliance against the northerners. Sun Quan sent Zhou Yu, Cheng Pu, and Lu Su to aid Liu Bei against Cao Cao.

Meanwhile Cao Cao had captured the strategic centre and military depot of Jiangling, and harbored his massive fleet there. The combined Sun-Liu force sailed upstream to Red Cliffs, where they encountered Cao Cao's courier force. After a mild skirmish, both sides temporarily ceased activity - with Cao camped northern of the Yangtze River and the allies in the south. Cao Cao boasted a troop of 150,000 men*, this was probably true as there is no evidence to suggest some other figure, he also had a sizeable cavalry and naval division. Zhou Yu had around 30,000 marines whilst the exiled Liu Bei managed around 20,000.

In the novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms Cao Cao boasted a much larger force of 1 million men, however his true number (in the novel) was closer to 700,000-800,000 men.


The decisive blow to Cao came shortly afterwards, though the sources vary on whether Liu or Sun struck it. The most detailed account comes from the biography of Zhou Yu, which details how the Sun commander Huang Gai planned an attack on Cao Cao with fire ships, by pretending to surrender to Cao Cao. The source tells of the devastation wrought in the Cao camp by the fires. In any case, a general order of retreat was given to Cao's troops, and it is likely that the northerners destroyed a number of their own ships during the retreat. There are hints that the northerners were at the time already plagued by disease and low morale.

Many other sources indicate that a combination of Cao Cao's underestimation and Liu's deception resulted in the allies' victory in the Battle of Chibi (Red Cliffs). Cao Cao's generals and soldiers were mostly from cavalry and infantry, and almost none had any experience in battles on the water. Immersed in his victory over Wuhuan, Cao Cao simply assumed that superiority in number would eventually defeat the Sun and Liu navy (the ratio of the naval forces on the two sides are estimated as 120,000 to 50,000). He converted his massive infantry and cavalry army into a marine corps and a navy, which was his first tactical mistake. Even with only a few days of drills before the battle, Cao Cao's troops were already decimated by sea-sickness and lack of water experience, as many of his "fresh" crew could not even swim. Tropical diseases to which southerners had long been immune also plagued the soldiers of the north, and were out of control in Cao Cao's camps.

Extremely worried that his troops would be debilitated by the unfamiliar environment, Cao Cao decided to chain his entire fleet together with strong iron chains. Within days, sea-sickness was drastically decreased, as the ships would rock less when chained together. However, this seemingly beneficial act would eventually cause the destruction of the fleet.

At the same time, the commanders calculated that at this time of the year winds would only blow in the direction of northwest (which was called a southeastern wind). Cao Cao's fleet, which was anchored in the northwest relative to Sun and Liu's camps, was then thoroughly exposed to a fire attack. They bet on this South-eastern wind to even out the chances of the Sun and Liu's inferior forces. However, Cao Cao, unfamilar with the southern weather patterns, was unaware, since most of the season it was the northwestern wind that blew.

On the eve of the battle, Cao Cao realized that the southeastern wind disrupted his entire fleet movement, as his fleet could not advance against a wind blowing straight towards it. A general retreat order was issued, but as his fleet was chained tightly to one another, panic broke out and prevented the fleet from retreating effectively. The entire fleet of 2,000 was then trapped in the middle of the Yangtze river with restricted mobility.

In a desperate effort, Cao Cao called for an attack against the allied force. However, the arrows from Cao Cao's fleet could not reach Sun and Liu's fleets, as the Southeastern wind blew the arrows away from their designated targets. Cao Cao's strategies of overwhelming the Sun-Liu navies with boarding parties had failed as soon as the fleet was immobilized. The Wu forces, aided by the wind, launched arrows with fire tips at the hapless warships of Cao Cao. A combination of volleys of "fire arrows" and attacks of the "fire ships" led by Huang Gai eventually destroyed most of Cao Cao's ships. Then Sun Quan's main forces, on the southern side of the river, crossed the river while Liu Bei's forces marched towards Wulin, defeating Cao Cao's forces on the way. Seeing that the situation was hopeless, Cao Cao burnt his remaining ships and retreated towards Jiangling via Huarong.

Due to famine, disease, and skirmishes along the way, many of Cao Cao's remaining forces perished. However, Zhang Liao and Xu Zhu soon came to the rescue and Cao Cao was safely escorted back to Jiangling. Cao Cao then retreated back north, leaving Cao Ren and Xu Huang to guard Jiangling, Man Chong in Dangyang, and Yue Jin in Xiangyang.


By the end of 209, the command Cao Cao had established at Jiangling fell to Zhou Yu. Liu Bei, on the other hand, had gained territory by taking over the four commanderies south of the Yangzi River. He also occupied Cao Cao's Jingzhou, a strategic fortress on the Yangtze River that Wu claimed for itself. Jingzhou's location gave Liu Bei virtually unlimited access to the passage into Shu, important waterways into Wu, and dominion of the southern Yangtze River. Sun Quan was extremely bitter over his claims that Jingzhou belonged to him, and Liu-Sun ties were severed. The battle of Chibi was the only time that Shu and Wu successfully worked together to defeat the strongest of the three kingdoms, Wei. However, this battle left all three forces significantly weakened and so a power vacuum formed within China. While Cao Cao retreated to reform his army and retrain his troops, Liu Bei and Sun Quan continued quarreling for supremacy in the south. This endless fighting eventually led to their demise by giving Wei an easy opportunity to sweep through and conquer southern China many years later.

It is later claimed by some scholars that Zhuge Liang had planned this battle all along, calculating that Sun Quan's forces would be most weakened after the battle of Chibi so that Liu could take the advantage of expanding his territory. Zhuge Liang gave the fortress of Jingzhou to Guan Yu, who maintained and guarded it until his defeat in 219.

Never again would Cao Cao command so large a fleet as he had at Jiangling, nor would similar opportunity to destroy his southern rivals again present itself. Therefore, the Battle of Red Cliffs and the capture of Jingzhou confirmed the separation of Southern China from the northern Yellow River valley heartland. The battle not only formally established the division of China to the Three Kingdoms, but also foreshadowed the north-south hostility of the later centuries.

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Pretty amazing, don't you think?

    

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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 11:15
indeed the greatest battle ever fought on earth.

here's another one.

During mid-waring age(350 B.C), State Wei began to develope a well deciplined army and the size of the kingdom started to grow. In 351 b.c, the King of Wei send general Pang Juan to invade the neighbouring Han state, Han then asked for help form Qi state. General Sun Bin who was the grandson of Sun Tzu and the general of QI, he figured that the casualties would too great even if they win the battle against Wei's well traind army, in order to avoid casualties, he launched an invasion against Wei's heartland, and as he predicted, Wei's homeland was defenceless. Pang Juan retreated his troops soon after he heard the news, but Qi army was long gone when they got back.

The king of Wei was angery at Qi state for they have alway interfere with Wei's affair with other states. In 338 b.c Wei launched a full scale invasion against Qi.

Sun Bin figured that Qi was too weak for a face to face battle against Wei, so he designed a stretegy called 减灶法, by decreasing Zou( the hole on the ground where soidiers set up fire and cook foods or water,usually being shared by 5 man) to make Pang Juan believe that the Qi army were decreasing in numbers thus seduce Wei army into the trap . Pang Junan did belive that Qi's army were decreasing and retreating( Sun Bin also abandoned equipments such as weapons and flags) he abandoned the large army and led a small force of light calveries try to capture Sun Bin. He ended up in a small place called 马陵( Ma Ling) where the road was exemly muddy, calveries were extremely slow in such environent. They soon arrived to a hindrance formed by woods and stone, and there were writings on it but no one could recognise it in the dark. Driven by his curiorsity Pang Junan ordered his troops to make a torch so he could see the writing. He soon realised that it was a trap when he saw the writing where it says "庞涓死于此树之下"( "here shall be the grave of Pang Juan"), he immediately ordered his troops to retreat, but it was too late, millions of arrows shot by the Qi archors killed Pang Junan and his man in a second.

Qi have regained the respect and leadership amoung the states after the battle, and they conquored large territory of Wei, and Sun Bin became well known for his military talent.


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 10:22
Originally posted by pekau


Many other sources indicate that a combination of Cao Cao's underestimation and Liu's deception resulted in the allies' victory in the Battle of Chibi (Red Cliffs). Cao Cao's generals and soldiers were mostly from cavalry and infantry, and almost none had any experience in battles on the water. Immersed in his victory over Wuhuan, Cao Cao simply assumed that superiority in number would eventually defeat the Sun and Liu navy (the ratio of the naval forces on the two sides are estimated as 120,000 to 50,000). He converted his massive infantry and cavalry army into a marine corps and a navy, which was his first tactical mistake. Even with only a few days of drills before the battle, Cao Cao's troops were already decimated by sea-sickness and lack of water experience, as many of his "fresh" crew could not even swim. Tropical diseases to which southerners had long been immune also plagued the soldiers of the north, and were out of control in Cao Cao's camps.




I think this is mistaken, Caocao did have a large well trained naval force after he captured most of province Jingzhou(荆州), the Jing navy was very well known, almost as strong as the Wu navy. Caocao's loss was purely stretegical failure.


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 11:17
i ve recently been to China and i went to the famous site of Eight Position diagrams 八阵图  which was built by Zhu Geliang, it turned out to be a very promising trip.

the Eight Position diagrams, which i believe to ve a labyrinth but serves a military purpose, was truly fascinating, some believed that
Eight Position diagrams was a combination of calveries and infantries and the maze was build only for military purpose.


Zhuge Liang installed eight position diagrams, it is a very well known legend. There was believed to be 4 original sites where Zhu Geliang built his famous Eight Position Diagrams   :the First one is in Mianxian of Shaanxi province; the second is in Xingdu of Sichuan province;another two are located in
Fengjie, the first one is located in the east of the city beside the river, were known as the water eight Position diagram; the other one is in Baidicheng were known as drought eight positions. the Fengjie water eight positions Diagram is believed to be the most prestigious of the four.

i am not an expert, so could anyone give me a specific reference from the orginal taxt  on 
Eight Position diagrams?

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:17
Mein Gott, you are right. Nooo, wikipedia is supposed to be divine!!!

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:18
Ah, but it said that many other sources claiming... bluh bluh bluh). So, it's just showing other POV that may be wrong. WOOT, wikipedia is still divine!!!

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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 21:40
it's probably work of some evil person whose intention was to sabotage the work of Wikipedia. Could it be google?ShockedAngry

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 22:13
Originally posted by Siege Tower

it's probably work of some evil person whose intention was to sabotage the work of Wikipedia. Could it be google?

    
The new conspiracy theory is on! Google will take over the world! Crap, I have the only right to dominate the world...
     

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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2007 at 00:21
the evil axis:yahoo, google or probably baidu vs. wiki clans!!!!!!!!! google have already taken its first action against the neutral website youtube, what will be google's next step??????


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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 22:30

I was going to mention Red Cliffs when I saw this thread. Sickness and the famous fire attack got the better of Cao Cao's fleet. Ya beat me to it guys. :x

Zhuge Liang was a master of ambuscades. What he would do, for instance at Mumen, is retreat, set up an ambush and then attack with massed crossbow fire whoever pursued him. His forces killed Zhang He at the aforementioned Mumen using this tactic. On other occassions, Zhuge Liang would try to lure Sima Yi to engage Shu in a field battle, and Sima Yi would lose. Fortunately for Wei, Sima Yi was clever enough to realize when to avoid conflict, and eventually he learned to adopt a more defensive policy whereby he kept Wei castles more fortified and avoided field battles.
 
The tactics of Hao Zhao at Chen Kuang Castle are also interesting. This was during one of Zhuge Liang's early invasions of Wei. Zhuge Liang attempted to take Chen Kuang, but all his tactics failed and eventually he was forced to leave because he began to run low on supplies. Hao Zhao countered tunnelling with counter tunneling, burned siege ladders so the Shu army couldn't scale the ramparts and attached large boulders to ropes (or something like that?) to destroy Kongming's siege towers.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 19:37
Zhuge Liang was a brilliant tactican.... but that's really exaggerated. His accomplishments seem impressive when he wins... but interesting enough, that's only when the opponents are thick-headed warriors. When Sima Yi stayed defensive, a simple tactic when one faces someone who excels in offense.... Zhuge Liang could not do a thing about it. The brilliant tacticans should be able to pull that off, especially when both sides had similar amount of forces.
 
Look at Rommel. He was able to beat the Allies numerous times, when Allies attacked or stayed defensive. He only pulled back when he ran out of manpower, and when his superior decided not to follow Rommel's advice.


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 16:03
Zhuge liang was actually more of a politician than a general, it is very common that people compare him with Bismark.
 
 


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 16:07
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Zhuge liang was actually more of a politician than a general, it is very common that people compare him with Bismark.
 
 
 
Well said, Siegetower! His biggest accomplishment, after all, is to convince Shu to join the battle against Wu.


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Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 22:56
Pekau,

Zhugeliang was a brillant tactican.  However, he was overratted.

Correction, Zhuge Liang armies was outnumbered by Sima Yi.   I recall reading that Sima Yi army was about fifty to sixty percent larger than Zhuge Liang.

Also, Sima Yi had more resources (like food) versus Zhuge Liang.

All that and Zhuge Liang was always on the offensive.  He was also the Prime Minister so he had military and domestic duties to deal with simultaneously.  No small feat and a testment to his abilities.

Jiangwei


Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 02:42
I disagree...Zhuge Liang was a great tactician.
 
He won battles, but lost wars. To me, he's like McClellan of the American Civil War. He was too cautious to engage in a decisive conflict with Wei that might decide the fate of the two kingdoms. As it turned out, this was good for Shu, as Jiang Wei's more bold yet reckless way of campaigning would result in defeat after defeat for Shu-Han.
 
Overrated? Perhaps. But he deserves his fame. Wei had many competent officers, as did Wu, but Zhuge Liang was definitely the most talented man that Shu-Han produced. He was both a good leader and a good "politician." Before his Northern Campaigns, he worked himself to exhaustion with the details of governance. During his Northern Campaigns, he worked himself to death with the details of campaign strategy. His style of waging war was gradually progressive, but slow. Had he been able to live much longer, I think he would have found much more success in his war against Wei.
 
Even though he was Prime Minister, he told Liu Shan that he could leave matters of governance in the hands of Fei Wei, Guo Youzhi and Dong Yun. After Liu Bei's death, he did a lot to repair Shu's military, economy, etc. and restore the faith of Shu's populace. But afterwards he became, essentially, the commander-in-chief of Shu-Han. Except for the first and second northern campaign, he was victorious in battle in nearly all of his other campaigns. He was too cautious to follow up victories with a drive into Wei, however. Some say this was a bad thing, but I consider it to be one of his better points. Better to be cautious than reckless if you are at a disadvantage against a stronger enemy country.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 14:15
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Pekau,

Zhugeliang was a brillant tactican.  However, he was overratted.

Correction, Zhuge Liang armies was outnumbered by Sima Yi.   I recall reading that Sima Yi army was about fifty to sixty percent larger than Zhuge Liang.

Also, Sima Yi had more resources (like food) versus Zhuge Liang.

All that and Zhuge Liang was always on the offensive.  He was also the Prime Minister so he had military and domestic duties to deal with simultaneously.  No small feat and a testment to his abilities.

Jiangwei
 
I never argued that he was a terrible tactican. He was brilliant. I am merely pointing out that his true importance was his capability to adapt to situatuon and his understanding of diplomacy.


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Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 15:09
Pekau,
 
I agree with you.
 
Just that I think Kongming's hands were tied due to being outnumbered and outresouced.  Hence, his flexibility was limited.  I think if Sima Yi and KongMing had the same amount of each, Kong Ming would win.  Hands down.
 
But you have to hand it to Sima Yi.  He knew he was inferior (or at least not as smart as Kong Ming) hence he played the waiting game to his advantage.  It takes a man of great ability to know one's limitations & utilize it to the fullest.
 
Jiangwei


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Pekau,
 
I agree with you.
 
Just that I think Kongming's hands were tied due to being outnumbered and outresouced.  Hence, his flexibility was limited.  I think if Sima Yi and KongMing had the same amount of each, Kong Ming would win.  Hands down.
 
But you have to hand it to Sima Yi.  He knew he was inferior (or at least not as smart as Kong Ming) hence he played the waiting game to his advantage.  It takes a man of great ability to know one's limitations & utilize it to the fullest.
 
Jiangwei
 
Once again, history is not always improved by the intelligence. It's amazing how many intelligent people made the situations even worse, when all it takes is a simple common sense. For instance, UN provided with an expensive cooking room full of advance machines for Indian students... but the Indians could not use it because 1. The power voltage was different and 2. They found it pointless to use that for cooking when they used different equipment and practiced different style of cooking in their homes.  


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 15:37
Once again, history is not always improved by the intelligence. It's amazing how many intelligent people made the situations even worse
 
well said.
 
 
Zhuge Liang might be a brilliant tactician but he never had any major breakthrough in the war against Wei 


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 17:09
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Once again, history is not always improved by the intelligence. It's amazing how many intelligent people made the situations even worse
 
well said.
 
 
Zhuge Liang might be a brilliant tactician but he never had any major breakthrough in the war against Wei 
 
I understand what you are getting at, but I do think Zhuge Liang made huge accomplishments against the Kingdom of Wu. Wei could not hope to launch another aggressive attack since Zhuge Liang's successful alliance with Kingdom of Shu prevented Cao Cao to freely attack to the South. Furthermore, Zhuge Liang's brilliance helped to push Wu back to North, though the advance was not that significant since Wu still dominated much of China. Because of his brilliance, the Romance of the Three Kingdoms endured much longer than it should have.


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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 17:54
Pekau, Cao Cao wasn't even alive at the time that Zhuge Liang sent Deng Zhi to re-affirm the alliance between Shu-Han and Wu. Nor was he, of course, alive when Zhuge Liang began his Northern Campaigns. During Zhuge Liang's first Northern Campaign, Cao Pi had even died and been succeeded by Cao Rui.
 
Zhuge Liang achieved very little against the kingdom of Wu either. He merely restored the peace that the two kingdom had before Wu took Jingzhou from Liu Bei.
 
Wu did not dominate most of China. Wei had nearly equal to or more land than Wu (although as far as land goes, the two kingdoms may have been pretty close). Wei had a significant population advantage against Wu, however, and the combined amount of territory that Wei and Shu had outmatched that of the territory that Wu held.
 
The concluding statement you made might be true. Shu needed all the good leadership it could have, and Zhuge Liang was definitely the greatest mind in the kingdom. His policies, both civil and military, made Shu-Han a much larger threat to Cao-Wei.
 
What Siege Tower says is mostly true though. Zhuge Liang's policies were progressive, and he was slowly gaining ground as he won more victories, but he never did have a major breakthrough against Wei.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by Slick

Pekau, Cao Cao wasn't even alive at the time that Zhuge Liang sent Deng Zhi to re-affirm the alliance between Shu-Han and Wu. Nor was he, of course, alive when Zhuge Liang began his Northern Campaigns. During Zhuge Liang's first Northern Campaign, Cao Pi had even died and been succeeded by Cao Rui.
 
Zhuge Liang achieved very little against the kingdom of Wu either. He merely restored the peace that the two kingdom had before Wu took Jingzhou from Liu Bei.
 
Wu did not dominate most of China. Wei had nearly equal to or more land than Wu (although as far as land goes, the two kingdoms may have been pretty close). Wei had a significant population advantage against Wu, however, and the combined amount of territory that Wei and Shu had outmatched that of the territory that Wu held.
 
The concluding statement you made might be true. Shu needed all the good leadership it could have, and Zhuge Liang was definitely the greatest mind in the kingdom. His policies, both civil and military, made Shu-Han a much larger threat to Cao-Wei.
 
What Siege Tower says is mostly true though. Zhuge Liang's policies were progressive, and he was slowly gaining ground as he won more victories, but he never did have a major breakthrough against Wei.
 
Lol, I am slipping... But didn't Zhuge Liang organized an attack to Wu? It was just a castle, but he still got it? Can't remember what name of the city was... but he invaded shortly after he captured Wei's capital, he attacked since people feared that the capital could be attacked by Wu easily.


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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 20:13

He never captured Wei's capital. He never even captured Chang'an, which was his first goal during his Northern Campaigns. And I don't know of any attempts by him to take a Wu city...



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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 13:39
Zhuge Liang's plan was to take Long Zhong( 陇中), which was famous for its wheat production and wait a few years hope to prepare enough food to wage the war. At the same time , work out the relation with Wu so that Wu would attack from the other end. His next step would be caturing Chang'an. I think the reason for his failure would be Shu's relationship with Wu, because as you know, Liu Bei invaded Wu and lost most of his army(you know how people say that the reason of his invasion on Wu was because of the assasination of Zhang Fei, i think it's because he was tired of waiting).

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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 13:49
Wei actually occupied 2/3 of China, but less than 1/3 of Chinese population. Out of the three kingdoms, Shu governs about 2/5 of the entire population including minority races from south. During pre-three kingdom period, most of Chinese population live in Jing Zhougoverned by Liu Biao.

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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 14:34
Suffice it to say, Zhuge Liang did not ultimately achieve his goals, though was slowly inching towards them.
 
Anyways, to get this back on track, my points were that Zhuge Liang was a decent early tactician. His ambuscades are what he's most famous for, and he invented a formation called the 'eight-gates' formation that allowed him to effectively make use of crossbowmen in ambushes. When retreating, for instance after the Battle of Chen Kuang and at Mumen, he'd leave an army detachment in ambush so that officers who pursued, as Wang Shuang and Zhang He would do, would be caught in Zhuge Liang's trap.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 21:35

Mein Gott, I have to reread the Three Kingdoms of Romance...



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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 22:45

Well, Romance of the Three Kingdoms does contain a good deal of fiction. If you want to learn more about the actual period, you should try reading some translated SGZ bios around the web or find a good book on China.

http://www.kongming.net - http://www.kongming.net is a good source for translated bios and such. Sanguo Yanyi bios are bios of characters from Luo Guanzhong's novel, so avoid reading those and read some of the SGZ and Comprehensive bios instead.


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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 07:17
hey pakau, i strongly advise you to read the history of three kingdom by  Cheng Tao, it's more historically accurate and it is unbiased. Romance of the Three Kingdoms which was extremely biased on Cao Cao, who was one of the greatest leader of all time and a brilliant writer.

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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 19:05

Oh, thanks. I think my friend might have that copy. He's obsess with Three Kingdom of Romance...



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