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Question regarding Royal Navy

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
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Topic: Question regarding Royal Navy
Posted By: pekau
Subject: Question regarding Royal Navy
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 01:00

Royal Navy is Britain's weapon of choice. Such ensured Britain's commercial empire and protected Britain from Napoleon's Grand Empire to the Hitler's Nazi Germany. My question is... how and why Royal Navy was so effective that its might went unchallenged for centuries?

There are some reasons that I know.
 
Many countries, including Grand Empire, Japan under leadership of Hideyoshi and Roman Empire, failed to achieve the great navy due to the fact that they were not familiar with sea battles. France, busy fighting a European conflicts (Balance of Power) and could not prepare a proper sea battles. Japan, confident that they would be victorious over Chosen (Korean) navy, was heavily crushed by Yi Sun-shin's brilliant modernized navy warfare. Rome, having constant conflict with neighbor powers and barbarians, were not experienced in sea battles until they became powerful enough to wage wars against Carthage.
 
This is because such countries named before relied heavily on "Grappling hook" tactic - that is, a strategy in which armed forces on the ships would land on enemy ships and eliminate the enemies. Rome was able to win over Carthage because Romans invented a giant ladder that would be dropped and hook on the enemy ship. Roman soldiers, well-trained in land battle, would travel to enemy ships by the ladder and changing the sea battle to land battle.
 
Napoleon, though used the same strategy, failed thanks to Nelson's tactic quite similar to Yi Sun-shin's method of destorying the enemy ships by powerful cannons and well-trained archors to keep the enemy ships away from their ships.
 
Thanks in advance
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 17:17
Well, Britain had more ships than other country and British crews fought for king and country and also for the prize. Greed somtimes gives more courage than any other type of motivation.

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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 19:49
The amount of ship? Well, that's not until Britain became a world power. When the Battle of Trafalgar commenced, British fleet of 22 ships achieved perfect victory over French and Spanish fleet, which was about 33. (My number may be wrong, but British fleet was outnumbered) Furthermore, all other nations fought for reward as well. Among the method of paying soldiers is to let them plunder the land they conquered. Napoleon was very good at this, though he should have avoided such crime in Russian invasion... which slowed them down. This greed forced Napoleon's Grand Army to slow down even further and trap the army in Russian winter. Soldiers, other than pirates, did not really fight for greed. It's the leaders of the army or the government that were greedy. Europe is a war-torn nation. They want peace and stable economy, not greed for more land. And what could Nelson's army plunder in the sea, anyway? Fish? I like to collect sea shells, and do like some sea food... but I will not be encouraged to fight for that. Soldiers back then were not paid as well as we think. People joined army because they then were provided with food and shelter. Their wage was saved until their retirement, or was sent to support their families. Reward mostly went to soldiers' generals and commanders. This is the reason why Napoleon was so successful. He rewarded anyone according to their ability, regardless of rank.
 
Sorry, I am just being picky. Mind my grammar and spelling errors. My number of ships mentioned before may not be accurate.


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 20:46
The reason Britains navy went unchllenged was because Britain is an island so unlike other European countries didn't have invest in the army to prevent invasion and in arms build ups against European powers the navy was a priority. Britain als had a global empire so had a priority of protecting its merchant trade.
 
The Japanese had a 20th century naval tradition as good as Britain thanks to thanks to the Russo-Japanese war. So the Yamamoto entered wwii with an illustrious tradition.
 
Trafalgar, from memory, was 27 British ships and 33 Franco-Spanish, the French ships were better built than the British ones and the Spanish much better built than the French ships. However the Spanish had completely green crews and the British veterans. Britain's disdvantage at Trafalgar wasn't so much numbers but quality of shipbuilding and its advatage quality of crews.


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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 21:32
Originally posted by Paul

.... 
Trafalgar, from memory, was 27 British ships and 33 Franco-Spanish, the French ships were better built than the British ones and the Spanish much better built than the French ships. However the Spanish had completely green crews and the British veterans. Britain's disdvantage at Trafalgar wasn't so much numbers but quality of shipbuilding and its advatage quality of crews.
 
That's sounds very honest to me.
 
By the way, you should not forget that by the Trafalgar sea battle Spain wasn't a free country but it was occupied by France.
 
Pinguin 


Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 19:03
You sure? Because The Peninsular War (France fighting against Britain, Spain and Portugal) started after Napoleon lost in the Battle of Trafalgar. If I am wrong, it's just a small genocide against my brain cells.
 
Prophet Malachi,
Future IB Revolutionist and eternal fan of Lord High Admiral Yi Sun-sin, the greatest navy admiral in history of mankind.  


Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 20:05
Napoleon invaded Spain in 1806 a year after Trafalgar. Prior to this Spain was a French ally hence their fleets fighting together at Trafalgar.

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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 20:38
Originally posted by Paul

The reason Britains navy went unchllenged was because Britain is an island so unlike other European countries didn't have invest in the army to prevent invasion and in arms build ups against European powers the navy was a priority. Britain als had a global empire so had a priority of protecting its merchant trade.
 
The Japanese had a 20th century naval tradition as good as Britain thanks to thanks to the Russo-Japanese war. So the Yamamoto entered wwii with an illustrious tradition.
 
Trafalgar, from memory, was 27 British ships and 33 Franco-Spanish, the French ships were better built than the British ones and the Spanish much better built than the French ships. However the Spanish had completely green crews and the British veterans. Britain's disdvantage at Trafalgar wasn't so much numbers but quality of shipbuilding and its advatage quality of crews.
 
Question answered i guess.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 00:10
Japan and Britain have almost the smae strategic position, as a result similar strategic outlook.


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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 22:54
I know guys, but I asked if there were any other reasons.Wink


Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 16:51
Another reason is Britains mass of forests. Countries with lots of forest and coastline are able to build many ships.

Also Britain depended entirely on maritime trade for assets other had. A such there was great economic interest in shipbuilding which allowed Britain veteran crews and much experience.

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Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:13
Originally posted by Paul

Napoleon invaded Spain in 1806 a year after Trafalgar. Prior to this Spain was a French ally hence their fleets fighting together at Trafalgar.


Sorry Paul, in 1808 Smile


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Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 18:15
I thought it was later as I was typing, but I believed what I read (silly me). Now you can have the fun of telling the National Maratime Museum.
 
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewCategory.cfm/Category/90328 - http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/nelson/viewCategory.cfm/Category/90328


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Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk


Posted By: milhistbuff1
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 04:32
I know I'm rather late with this but Arthur Herman's "To Rule the Waves" answers this exact question...


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 28-May-2012 at 09:23
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWMjxE17ypM[/TUBE]
Rule Britannia or maybe Jerusalem would make a much better national anthem than the German song we currently use


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 15:50
Old thread but interesting question, British naval dominamnce starts in the later half of the 18th century roughly but really comes to the fore during the Napoleonic wars.
 
Firstly its simple the British are willing to resource a large fleet, the army is usually small but the Royal Navy is big.
 
 As an island  a fleet is basic to defence (or attack) and with a large trading fleet its also needed to protect that.
 
Royal Navy ships are not more advanced than her enemies-- much the same captured French ships would often be taken into the Royal Navy.
 
Second big advantage are the officers, its hard to understand but in that world promotion was not on merit-- aristocratic backgrounds, connections and influence are what gained office and even command of ships, even in post-revolution France political correctness was important. In the Royal Navy promotion was on merit (of course influence and conections helped) a boy would go to sea as a midshipman in his early teen or younger and over years trained to be an officer.
 
When his Captain deemed it was time he would sit an examination before a board of other Captains where he had to answer questions, it considered good enough he passed a a lieutenant. In theory you could go from common seaman to lieutenant in reality a common seaman would not have the education to pass the examination but officers from modest backgrounds ,such as Bligh and Cook, did advance.
 
As a Lieutenant now influence was needed as there was usually more officers than posts ,especially in peacetime. Even so all officers would have been competent.
 
The Revoluion in France weakened the Navy but also the Royal Navy was more agressive in nature a French ship may have been happy disable an enemy and then escape to fight another day a RN ship went in for the kill.
 
The Royal Navy won a sring of victories and started to believe themselves to be the 'best' and so did their enemies. The French allowed themselves to be blockaded, they sat in port 'getting rusty' while the RN was at sea waiting to fight and training, getting better.


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cymru am byth


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 16:07
On an individual basis GB's navy was lesser than somr nations like America. Due to its resources being stretched quite a few of its ships were in bad repair, had badly trained crews, and weren't very accurate plus were overconfident. In the War of 1812 numerous British ships were under or poorly manned and in bad repair. The qualitively better American ships usually won single ship engagements but were hugely outnumbered. By that time it seems Britain was going for numbers over quality. In the war of American independence the sides seemed quite equal.

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Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 16:54
Strange that this poorly trained and undermanned badly repaired fleet managed to defeat every major Navy in the world win major fleet actions often against the odds and dominate the worlds oceans.
 
Throughout the period the only setback was to loose a few single ship actions and some minor Lake actions in America.


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cymru am byth


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 17:00
Because they were overstretched. Quite a few ships were converted merchantmen or captured prizes in bad repair. The Gueriere was in bad repair and short on crew. The fact is with so many obligations Britains fleet was suffering quality wise. She routinely impressed foreign sailors or landsmen and recruited men from even jails like the army. Most of the fleets were indeed quite good but a minority 1/4 or more were bad or not well manned and some ships were in disrepair. Gunnery practice and such weren't priorities either.

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Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 17:03
If we look at the French and Spanish navy we find even worse quality manpower wise but technically better ships. The French and Spanish crews seemed to be routinely killed by disease and the number of defeats deprived them of remaining officers and seamen.

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Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 18:09
The Royal Navy was huge and had all manner of vessels and all manner of tasks. They also impressed (including Americans that was supposedly one of the causes or excuses for the War of 1812) many sailors because man power was a problem in such a large fleet and often had many Nationalities on board Some ships could have man power shortages but rarely were they undermanned.
 
Ships were often at sea along time -- for instance just finished reading the 'Billy Ruffian' the life story of HMS Bellerophon a 74 Shipe of the Line (how many of those did America the 'superior navy have I wonder-- nice round number I believe?) -- and she goes from the fastest ship in the fleet to  one of the slowest thanks to the weed that accumulates on the hull over time-- she then puts in to port for an overhaul and becomes fast again.
 
The tiny number of American ships can have more time  spent on them, they've got very little to do.
 
I have never read any accounts where the RN is accused of being poorly trained (a big fleet so of course it varied HMS Shannon for instance was rather good) in fact the opposite, .
 
Napoleon comments on the difference between RN and French ships when a prisoner on the 'Billy Ruffian', he is astounded that there are no shouted commands but every thing seems organised and efficient.
 
The 'Billy Ruffian' at Trafalgar ends up fighting no less than 4 enemy ships all either the same size or bigger than her-- she doesn't defeat them of course but when she drifts clear they are in almost as bad a state as she is and in no condition to face fresh RN ships. You can not do that with poorly trained ,or motivated, crew.
 
 Gunnery was practiced regularly.
 
Disease killed more sailors than enemy action in almost all navies of the time-- the British even start making their crews drink Lime juice-- madness well the Americans found it funny and gave the RN a nickname.


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cymru am byth


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 18:30
He put forward as his defence the facts that the Guerriere was originally French-built, captured by the Royal Navy in 1806, and therefore not as sturdy as British-built ships, and more importantly, that the Guerriere was badly decayed and in fact on its way to refit in Halifax at the time, and the fall of the mizzen mast which crippled the Guerriere early in the fight had been due as much to rot as battle damage.[1
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution_vs_HMS_Guerriere

Dacres the captain stated that the ship was literally rotting yet was still in use.




Furthermore, a court martial later found that a number of British seamen had deserted their quarters during the action.[6]
%20 - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Boxer_(1812)#section_3
This was the HMS Boxer her men weren't exactly reliable.

Anyway the navy was large and quite a few ships were in bad repair and ill crewed due to the sheer size and maintenance required. The USA's navy was better quality wise due to it's officers, well built ships due to money and time spent on them, full volunteer force, extensive gunnery and sailing drills. The British opted to simply have a quick rate of fire but the Americans were more accurate. America's navy was small because Jefferson had dismantled it in favor of gunboats. The navy had seen extensive action in the Barbary and Quasi French Wars. The Chesapeake versus Shannon battle is a bad comparisonr. Those men were newly recruited and had never been to sea in the ship! Stupidity on Lawrence's part primarily. Anyway at the end of the war the US had a few ships of the line. Her frigates could actually probably have taken on some of the smaller ones like the HMS Africa.

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Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 19:21
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NXFCDgyanA[/TUBE]
Great topic.Smile My paternal grandfather was a sailor on HMS Jason during WWII and saw action in the Atlantic


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 19:22
All ships needed to be maintained constantly-, harder in a larger fleet than a smaller one  but a few single ship actions prove that the RN was a poorly trained and manned force? but fleet actions of which the RN won most if not all throughout the period, which involve battle fleets and ships of the line (which in 1812 the Americans had none), often out numbered, plus the huge number of single ship actions the RN won-- again often at a disadvantage count for nothing!

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cymru am byth


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2012 at 19:42
You mistake me. Im simply saying the American's shattered the myth of British invincibility on the sea. Im also stating that she pressed quite a few of her sailors into the navy while the US was a full volunteer force. American ships were better due to volunteer crews, a smaller force to maintain, more practice, and better built ships due to time and mones available. Britain obviously ruled the seas yet the navy wasn't perfect or invincible. Technically the only fleet actions fought were won by the US in the Great Lakes. Im not snubbing Britain just showing the problems of having such a large navy, not enough manpower, maintenance happens far less frequently and merchant ships are pressed into service, ships must be quickly and cheaply built. As opposed to the US having plenty of volunteer seamen, and a smaller navy that they could build with more quality and use volunteer seamen.

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2012 at 19:41
Originally posted by pekau

I know guys, but I asked if there were any other reasons.Wink


Historians generally credit Henry the Eighth for pushing a modern (for the time) and powerful navy into existence to serve the needs of Britain. He realized that controlling the seas, especially the English Channel, was paramount to protecting his realm.

One Britain became the seat of the British Empire, a large and powerful navy was essential in order to protect trade and to project power to all of the far-flung colonies. For that matter, the navy was essential to obtaining those far-flung colonies in the first place.

Up until the onset of WWII, sea power was THE power, all over the world.


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2012 at 19:45
Originally posted by Kevinmeath

All ships needed to be maintained constantly-, harder in a larger fleet than a smaller one  but a few single ship actions prove that the RN was a poorly trained and manned force? but fleet actions of which the RN won most if not all throughout the period, which involve battle fleets and ships of the line (which in 1812 the Americans had none), often out numbered, plus the huge number of single ship actions the RN won-- again often at a disadvantage count for nothing!


However, in the Age of Sail, such repair and maintenance was possibly using only the ship's own crew for the most part.  Everything including masts could be procured almost anywhere, fashioned into shape, and put into service, although captains did not trust "green" masts for long periods of service.  Metal fittings, cannons, gunpowder and cordage were the things primarily requiring a good shore supply source, but enterprising captains often obtained what they needed locally without ever returning to a British shipyard.


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2012 at 19:53
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

You mistake me. Im simply saying the American's shattered the myth of British invincibility on the sea. Im also stating that she pressed quite a few of her sailors into the navy while the US was a full volunteer force. American ships were better due to volunteer crews, a smaller force to maintain, more practice, and better built ships due to time and mones available. Britain obviously ruled the seas yet the navy wasn't perfect or invincible. Technically the only fleet actions fought were won by the US in the Great Lakes. Im not snubbing Britain just showing the problems of having such a large navy, not enough manpower, maintenance happens far less frequently and merchant ships are pressed into service, ships must be quickly and cheaply built. As opposed to the US having plenty of volunteer seamen, and a smaller navy that they could build with more quality and use volunteer seamen.


Well...up to a point.  In fact, America used captured naval vessels to augment her fleet, and copied designs from other nations.  The French, especially, were noted for well-founded, fast sailing vessels.  John Paul Jones most famous vessel, the French built Bonholme Richard, was originally built as a French merchantman.

Also, a number of American "warships" were, in fact, privately built and operated privateers, rather than officially constructed by an American government naval yard for service to the nation itself.

I have never completely grasped the success of the Royal Navy under the incredibly harsh conditions of impressment and virtual slavery of the crews, but they made it work despite all of its drawbacks.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 16-Aug-2012 at 20:19
Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

You mistake me. Im simply saying the American's shattered the myth of British invincibility on the sea. Im also stating that she pressed quite a few of her sailors into the navy while the US was a full volunteer force. American ships were better due to volunteer crews, a smaller force to maintain, more practice, and better built ships due to time and mones available. Britain obviously ruled the seas yet the navy wasn't perfect or invincible. Technically the only fleet actions fought were won by the US in the Great Lakes. Im not snubbing Britain just showing the problems of having such a large navy, not enough manpower, maintenance happens far less frequently and merchant ships are pressed into service, ships must be quickly and cheaply built. As opposed to the US having plenty of volunteer seamen, and a smaller navy that they could build with more quality and use volunteer seamen.
Well...up to a point.  In fact, America used captured naval vessels to augment her fleet, and copied designs from other nations.  The French, especially, were noted for well-founded, fast sailing vessels.  John Paul Jones most famous vessel, the French built Bonholme Richard, was originally built as a French merchantman.Also, a number of American "warships" were, in fact, privately built and operated privateers, rather than officially constructed by an American government naval yard for service to the nation itself.I have never completely grasped the success of the Royal Navy under the incredibly harsh conditions of impressment and virtual slavery of the crews, but they made it work despite all of its drawbacks.


I was speaking of the war of 1812.

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 14:58
My points remain valid throughout the entire period.  You are comparing a government at work  - the Royal Navy - with a mostly private navy fielded by America.

The size of Britain's navy was not a drawback, but an advantage, as they had a system in place to handle the needs of large fleets and widely dispersed vessels.  America did not, having never needed such in the past.

However, since the battles in America were merely sideshows in the overall operations of the Royal Navy, the "myth of British invincibility" being destroyed was, itself, a "myth".  The American navy had enormous respect for the warships and fighting qualities of the Royal Navy, which America did not match or surpass until the Second World War.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 16:49
It was not a private navy. It was paid and mannned by the government and supervised by the government.

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 17:21
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

It was not a private navy. It was paid and mannned by the government and supervised by the government.


Actually, the American government commissioned and constructed very few warships at the time.  We did not become a national naval power until much later.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 17:24
Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

It was not a private navy. It was paid and mannned by the government and supervised by the government.
Actually, the American government commissioned and constructed very few warships at the time.  We did not become a national naval power until much later.


Red herring. I said the warships were government ships not private as you said. Don't throw random things out there that I never said.

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 20:02
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

It was not a private navy. It was paid and mannned by the government and supervised by the government.
Actually, the American government commissioned and constructed very few warships at the time.  We did not become a national naval power until much later.


Red herring. I said the warships were government ships not private as you said. Don't throw random things out there that I never said.


No herrings, red or otherwise.

The Yankee Privateers with their fast trading ships took over 40 million dollars in prizes of ships and cargo from Great Britain during the War of 1812. A privateer is a privately owned ship that is issued http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_marque - letters of marque by a country's government, which authorized it to attack foreign shipping during war time. Many of the privateers that supplemented the United States Navy were fast, highly maneuverable clippers.

The American Congress authorized the construction of six frigates during the 1812 period, which hardly outnumbered the British; therefore, my statement that the American government built few warships is absolutely correct.  The bulk of the vessels were clippers turned privateers, as historical sources will validate.

However, the American frigates were considerably larger than British frigates of the period, mounting some twenty-four guns, which led the British to counter by commissioning five warships of 40 guns each, all cannon to be 24 pounders.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2012 at 20:11
No the United States navy was built primarily in the 1790's. As a result of the Quasi War with France and the Tripolian War. This was in all aspects a government navy. YOU are talking about privateers which aren't a navy but private vessels. The US at the time had no reason for a huge coatly navy so why should she build one?

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 12:17
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

No the United States navy was built primarily in the 1790's. As a result of the Quasi War with France and the Tripolian War. This was in all aspects a government navy. YOU are talking about privateers which aren't a navy but private vessels. The US at the time had no reason for a huge coatly navy so why should she build one?


Since you are the one claiming that America built a large navy, that would be a question for you to answer, would it not?

I'm the one pointing out that we didn't build a large navy, but rather employed privateers to boost our numbers and interfere with British shipping.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 12:21
Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

No the United States navy was built primarily in the 1790's. As a result of the Quasi War with France and the Tripolian War. This was in all aspects a government navy. YOU are talking about privateers which aren't a navy but private vessels. The US at the time had no reason for a huge coatly navy so why should she build one?
Since you are the one claiming that America built a large navy, that would be a question for you to answer, would it not?I'm the one pointing out that we didn't build a large navy, but rather employed privateers to boost our numbers and interfere with British shipping.


False. Please stop misquoting me right now. I never stated we had a large navy. I stated we had a smallish but qualitively better navy.

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Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 13:41
Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

No the United States navy was built primarily in the 1790's. As a result of the Quasi War with France and the Tripolian War. This was in all aspects a government navy. YOU are talking about privateers which aren't a navy but private vessels. The US at the time had no reason for a huge coatly navy so why should she build one?
Since you are the one claiming that America built a large navy, that would be a question for you to answer, would it not?I'm the one pointing out that we didn't build a large navy, but rather employed privateers to boost our numbers and interfere with British shipping.


False. Please stop misquoting me right now. I never stated we had a large navy. I stated we had a smallish but qualitively better navy.


I didn't "misquote" you.  You might want to review your posts and arguments before submitting to unjustified anger or perceived afront.

During the War of 1812, the American Navy commissioned exactly six frigates, period.  That is historical fact and easily verified.

America relied primarily on civilian privateers to intercept British shipping. These privateers acted through Letters of Marque granted by the American government and formed a quasi-addition to the American navy, without which America would have required a much greater fleet of official naval vessels in order to intercept British shipping and conduct military operations against British warships.  That is also historical fact and easily verified.

As to the quality of the navy, our frigates were larger and more heavily armed, as I have previously stated, but the British had a larger fleet with heavier capitol ships overall; therefore, that argument can go either way, but cannot sustain a general claim of all American warships being qualitively better.  A frigate, no matter how powerful, is still not  a match for a first rate ship-of-the-line, nor even a second or third rate for that matter.  Once again, John Paul Jones claimed his most famous victory while fighting as captain of a French-built warship, the Bonhomme Richard.  Our best warship designs were taken from the French, literally.

Our primary advantage during our wars with Britain was the fact that Britain was busy defending an empire that stretched around the world, and regarded us as a minor war not worthy of major deployments.  The British were fighting the Peninsular War at this time, and that took up a lot more of their military capabilities than a war 3,000 miles from Great Britain. Again, historical, verifiable fact.

I have enjoyed discussing this era and event with you, and perhaps we will be able to discuss other subjects elsewhere in a more courteous and amiable fashion.  After all, this is history; it isn't personal.


Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 14:08
Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

Originally posted by Mountain Man


Originally posted by Delenda est Roma

No the United States navy was built primarily in the 1790's. As a result of the Quasi War with France and the Tripolian War. This was in all aspects a government navy. YOU are talking about privateers which aren't a navy but private vessels. The US at the time had no reason for a huge coatly navy so why should she build one?
Since you are the one claiming that America built a large navy, that would be a question for you to answer, would it not?I'm the one pointing out that we didn't build a large navy, but rather employed privateers to boost our numbers and interfere with British shipping.


False. Please stop misquoting me right now. I never stated we had a large navy. I stated we had a smallish but qualitively better navy.
I didn't "misquote" you.  You might want to review your posts and arguments before submitting to unjustified anger or perceived afront.During the War of 1812, the American Navy commissioned exactly six frigates, period.  That is historical fact and easily verified.America relied primarily on civilian privateers to intercept British shipping. These privateers acted through Letters of Marque granted by the American government and formed a quasi-addition to the American navy, without which America would have required a much greater fleet of official naval vessels in order to intercept British shipping and conduct military operations against British warships.  That is also historical fact and easily verified.As to the quality of the navy, our frigates were larger and more heavily armed, as I have previously stated, but the British had a larger fleet with heavier capitol ships overall; therefore, that argument can go either way, but cannot sustain a general claim of all American warships being qualitively better.  A frigate, no matter how powerful, is still not  a match for a first rate ship-of-the-line, nor even a second or third rate for that matter.  Once again, John Paul Jones claimed his most famous victory while fighting as captain of a French-built warship, the Bonhomme Richard.  Our best warship designs were taken from the French, literally.Our primary advantage during our wars with Britain was the fact that Britain was busy defending an empire that stretched around the world, and regarded us as a minor war not worthy of major deployments.  The British were fighting the Peninsular War at this time, and that took up a lot more of their military capabilities than a war 3,000 miles from Great Britain. Again, historical, verifiable fact.I have enjoyed discussing this era and event with you, and perhaps we will be able to discuss other subjects elsewhere in a more courteous and amiable fashion.  After all, this is history; it isn't personal.


I don't enjoy being misquoted. I also don't enjoy somone throwing common information and false information at me. The frigates were built before the war of 1812 not after. They were government not private ships. I never stated the US navy was bigger. The Bonohomme Richard was a crappy converted merchantmen of which most cannons didn't work and the ship was rotten. It was one of the absolute crappiest vessels. Jones won due to a boarding action. The Richard then sank.

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Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 16:32
 
Originally posted by Mountain Man


...................................................I have never completely grasped the success of the Royal Navy under the incredibly harsh conditions of impressment and virtual slavery of the crews, but they made it work despite all of its drawbacks.
 
 

That’s because conditions were not as harsh as they are often portrayed, work on a warship was easier—much bigger crews and while their life seems hard to us conditions on merchant ships were not easy either. Officers and discipline were generally fair. In the context of the time conditions were not as poor as thought, in peace time for instance there was no need for 'impress'.




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cymru am byth


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 19:56
That's right. Jack Tar got plenty of rum, sodomy and the lash, but mutinies were comparatively rare due to fear of reprisal and the realisation conditions could be much worse under a new captain

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Kevinmeath
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2012 at 20:32
Originally posted by Nick1986

That's right. Jack Tar got plenty of rum, sodomy and the lash, but mutinies were comparatively rare due to fear of reprisal and the realisation conditions could be much worse under a new captain
Most captains were fair and many were simply loved eg Cochrane.
 
Sodomy was a capital offence, Rum was loved and the the lash well avoid it.
 
During the Mutinees of the Nore etc the sailors themselves flogged their own.
 
I remember reading one account and the shocked 'liberal' watches a man being flogged-- a horrible site-- and turns to the 'Jack Tar' next to him and asks him what can be done to stop such a thing
"Well 'e can stop being a bloody thief for a start, serves 'im rite'


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cymru am byth


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2012 at 19:59
The cat stripped flesh from bone, often exposing the lungs and spine. Few offenders survived 100 lashes even if the ship's doctor did intervene

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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2012 at 19:23
The penalty for mutiny was to be "whipped 'round the fleet".  The offender would be taken to a ship and given one hundred lashes, then confined again and nursed back to health, and then taken to the next warship by seniority and the process repeated until he had been "whipped 'round the fleet" or died.

If, by some macabre chance, he survived all of this, he was then hung from the yardarm, then his body taken down, tarred to preserve it, and then left hanging from the yardarm in the Admiralty harbor for all to see and consider the message.

I cannot imagine anyone surviving one hundred lashes, let alone multiple repetitions of that punishment. I can only assume that the lashes were applied using deliberately less force in order to preserve the poor wretch for the  next round.


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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2012 at 07:33
This Cat has knots at the end of each tail, but sometimes these were fitted with metal hooks or weights to cause more pain


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 07:36
[TUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiYwruoHhCI[/TUBE]


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Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains!


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2012 at 17:56
One of the best series of it's type!

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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?



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