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The German Military 1871-1918

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Early Modern & the Imperial Age
Forum Discription: World History from 1500 to the end of WW1
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14496
Printed Date: 20-Apr-2024 at 01:24
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Topic: The German Military 1871-1918
Posted By: rider
Subject: The German Military 1871-1918
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 11:34
I have always found the German Empire being a very interesting thing until the 1918 and 1919. Their military specifically appealing to me, so I was wondering today:
 
1) Does anyone have a good picture of a German soldier during the 1871-1918 period? With the changes made in uniforms and all.
 
2) What was their tactical formation during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871? In the battles, advanced as a single line, shot, trenches, columns, groups???
 
3) The numbers of the army during the entire period?
 
 
Thanks for any replies,
 



Replies:
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 06:13
Like others armies the german change more quickly during the few years of the war than the 40 years before.

Germans invading France in 1914:





The germans in Verdún, 1916:




Germans in the offensives of 1918:





At the end of the war Unhappy




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Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 12:13
The at the end of the war is pretty good in contrast with others...
 
Great, do you have any of the Franco-Prussian War? I know I found a good painting of them somewhere, but I can't remember where.


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Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 18:52
It is pretty bare that German army was expecting the same outcome of 1871 in 1914...
 
Which was impossible because the French army was more ready and equipped for war this time.
 
In 1871, German army advanced over Alsace-Lorraine and then cut Napoleon III's French army's contact with the rest of the French army by surrounding it in Metz..That was the key bringing success and allowing the Siege of Paris.
 
In 1914, Germans tried to use the Schlieffen Plan,but didn't apply that with all its aspects(e.g. it was including Holland's invasion Germans didn't)...But the bulk of the plan was more or less the same with the one used...Thinking French would be prepared around Alsace-Lorraine, Germans decided to use Belgium and surround the French armies via Belgium, while threatening Paris at the same time...
 
Though they lost quite some of time in Belgian fortresses, fighting against a small BEF and Belgian resistance and Russian invasion of Eastern Prussia also hit Germans.
 
When they came near Marne, they were already exhausted against organizedly retreated French armies,and new fresh French soldiers.


-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 21:14
Originally posted by Kapikulu

But the bulk of the plan was more or less the same with the one used...Thinking French would be prepared around Alsace-Lorraine, Germans decided to use Belgium and surround the French armies via Belgium, while threatening Paris at the same time...
 
That's a pretty significant difference, so I don't think "more or less the same" is a good way to put it.
 
The Schlieffen Plan represents to an extreme, the myopic Hannibalic worldview of the Imperial German general staff.
 
In their obsession with vast cauldron battles, they gave birth to this plan which would have become the most vast cauldron battle in history.  They seemed to have completely forgotten how hard the plan would be logistically and how strict the timetable would have to be (they allocated only 48 hours for the army to conquer Belgium and march across it on foot and horseback).  Not to mention that violating Belgian neutrality almost assured British intervention and the subsequent deployment of her army and navy against Germany for temporary operational gain. 
 
The only reason the Schlieffen Plan worked as well as it did was because of the French obsession with constant attack, which led them to leave northern France almost totally undefended as they marched into the mincer of Alsace-Lorraine.


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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 08:11
Originally posted by Genghis

That's a pretty significant difference, so I don't think "more or less the same" is a good way to put it.
 
The Schlieffen Plan represents to an extreme, the myopic Hannibalic worldview of the Imperial German general staff.
 
In their obsession with vast cauldron battles, they gave birth to this plan which would have become the most vast cauldron battle in history.  They seemed to have completely forgotten how hard the plan would be logistically and how strict the timetable would have to be (they allocated only 48 hours for the army to conquer Belgium and march across it on foot and horseback).  Not to mention that violating Belgian neutrality almost assured British intervention and the subsequent deployment of her army and navy against Germany for temporary operational gain. 
 
The only reason the Schlieffen Plan worked as well as it did was because of the French obsession with constant attack, which led them to leave northern France almost totally undefended as they marched into the mincer of Alsace-Lorraine.
 
I meant: The plan used by the Germans were more or less the same...Wasn't that? It hadn't gone in the way Schlieffen was foreseeing it...Germans had lost a lot of time in Belgium, especially in fortresses like Liege and even small BEF(British Expeditionary Force) detained them for around two days.
 
So, they went nearly on the same pattern with the plan on the first hand except a few details(like Schlieffen's Plan was also committed on an invasion of Netherlands), but clearly Schlieffen's plans were based on French situation in 1871...But French army was more improved and crowded in numbers at the time, plus the time lost against Belgium and BEF...was golden...


-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 17-Oct-2006 at 19:50
Guys, did you know that Hermann Goering was an ace in WW I...He shot down 21 planes...
 
Oh, and Ernst Udet, who was later committed suicide after the tricks of Goering due to failure of Battle of Britain, was much more successful, with 70 hits. 


-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: yan.
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 13:26
Udet commited suicide, i.e. no execution. The official cause of death was an accident while testing a new weapon, however. He also got a state funeral.


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 19:53
Originally posted by yan.

Udet commited suicide, i.e. no execution. The official cause of death was an accident while testing a new weapon, however. He also got a state funeral.
 
Yes, true, I wrote there wrongly...But the cause is known nowadays...He committed suicide, like many other Reich Generals whom Hitler lost his trust for different illogical reasons....Goering was behind Udet's suicide.


-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: milns
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 16:13
How old they could be in last picture of second post, 15, 16? This is terrible...

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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!


Posted By: milns
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 16:14
Sorry, doblepost

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Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!


Posted By: Brian J Checco
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 22:29
German military was very impressive during the discussed period. The high command made it's errors during the Schlieffen plan, but the quality of the German soldier at the time vastly surpassed that of all the other allied armies, with the possible exception of the British Tommies. The Americans broke the Germans' back with manpower and the psycological knowledge that Germany, already overstretched, now had to fight an entire new nation. This undercut the morale at home, and subsequently caused the German war effort to collapse.
The German military tech at the time was remarkable. While their machineguns were a bit underdeveloped, their Karbiner 98 rifles and steinhandlengrenates were advanced battlefield tech. They even developed tanks a year after the Brits did, though they were never widly deployed at the front.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2007 at 09:34

I recently finished a book which has some information you might like reading, it is called "the struggle for the rhine" by hermann stegemann , and it has been translated into english by georges chatterton-hill.  it details the struggle for the rhine from about 55BC to about 1920AD.  The last chapter discusses the time period your looking for.  It is a military history of the rhine, but also includes what is going on elsewhere and how that effected the rhine.



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Posted By: Belisarius57
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 14:53
Originally posted by Brian J Checco

German military was very impressive during the discussed period. The high command made it's errors during the Schlieffen plan, but the quality of the German soldier at the time vastly surpassed that of all the other allied armies, with the possible exception of the British Tommies. The Americans broke the Germans' back with manpower and the psycological knowledge that Germany, already overstretched, now had to fight an entire new nation. This undercut the morale at home, and subsequently caused the German war effort to collapse.
The German military tech at the time was remarkable. While their machineguns were a bit underdeveloped, their Karbiner 98 rifles and steinhandlengrenates were advanced battlefield tech. They even developed tanks a year after the Brits did, though they were never widly deployed at the front.


Sorry, I disagree. The German "war machine" has been vastly overrated in the 19th and 20th Centuries, a lot of hype over substance.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 03:10
I have to disagree with your disagreement, German strategy and German ingenuity lead them to victory after victory, even their defeat in the first world war was a monument to their resolve on the battlefield.

At Koniggratz (<---apologies, that should be Tannenberg) the German army faced the full weight of the Russian advance, and drove them back with just two divisions. They drove the Russians back from East Prussia right in to the heart of their land and took Russia out in a two front war, all the while concentrating the bulk and the creme of their armies against the French and the British in the west.

Even against the armies of the British Empire, France, Belgium, and eventually the United States, they managed to advance in to the heart of France and fight the whole western war in enemy territory until the armistice (and even then the Germans maintained they had not lost).

German soldiery during the period in question was something to be awed by, as in the pervious centuries. The Ghewer 98, the Stiel Handgenade, the German Howitzer, even such novel items as the Paris Gun all combined with German military skill and training to make them the most formidable force in Europe.

I can hardly believe anyone would question the German Military skill for the rest of the 19th century either. Prussia, the name is practically synonymous with battlefield glory. Sure, the century got off to a rough start for Prussia, leaving a blotch on their military history with their defeats at Jena and the like in 1807, but they redeemed themselves and revamped their army to come roaring back to defeat the French. I'm sure everyone is familiar with their underplayed contributions at Waterloo. Then there are the later notable victories under the Iron Chancellor himself: The colossal defeat of Austria in 1866, the Franco-Prussian war in 1871.

Frankly I don't see how one could over-rate them.


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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 09:33
Your arguments are largely correct AFAIK. However it is still possible to overrate the importance of military prowess.
 
When did Germany (as opposed to Prussia) ever win a war? (Remembering that the topic is 1871-1918.)
 


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Posted By: Belisarius57
Date Posted: 30-May-2007 at 12:22
Originally posted by Friedrich III

At Koniggratz the German army faced the full weight of the Russian advance, and drove them back with just two divisions.


I look forward to replying to your post when I have more time.  Meanwhile, I for one have never come across a battle of Koniggratz involving Russians.  If this is not a  typo, I'm more than happy to be enlightened. Was there more than one battle of Koniggratz? 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2007 at 06:28
Sincerest apologies, I actually meant to say Tannenberg, but I got the names mixed up with another battle. Sorry about that.

And I do conceded that between 1871 and 1918 the Germans didn't actually win a war, but then again when your tally is out of one you're either going to have 100% or 0. Besides, I don't evaluate the German Army solely based on weather they win the war or not, there is alot more to military history than victory and defeat.  

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Posted By: Belisarius57
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2007 at 06:02

Sorry for the delay in replying, I really don't know where to begin to try to puncture the myth of German military superiority that seems to hold so many people in thrall and is typified by your post. At first glance, a casual observer of history would be forced to agree with you until, that is, they delved deeper.

From the 1820’s, Germany [or more accurately Prussia] had one significant advantage over her neighbours, a large, professional, General Staff. This institution was capable, from time to time, of performing prodigious feats of organization and logistics in order to deploy mass armies that was the envy of other European powers, but on the whole it tended to be hidebound, unimaginative and inflexible.

There is no doubt that the German army was well trained and led by an experienced cadre of long serving N.C.O.s, but ironically this was also it's greatest weakness, since these were irreplaceable in the medium term and their high attrition rate in the Great War led to the eventual deterioration of the army as an effective fighting force. Strategy and ingenuity were not as significant to the German army's initial successes as numbers and technology.

Taking your original example of KÖniggratz, von Moltke's rash attempt at a battlefield concentration almost fell apart in the early stages of the encounter, leaving the Prussians in trouble and on the defensive for most of the battle, There were several points during the battle that the Austrians could have won despite their inferior equipment [except maybe their artillery] and training; only the fortuitous arrival of 100,000 reinforcements in the form of the Crown Prince's army on the Austrian flank at the point when they were poised to inflict a humiliating defeat on the Prussians, turned the tide of the battle. Although decisive, this was hardly an example of masterful strategy and ingenuity. It is well known that the French were unprepared, poorly led and were organizationally inferior to the Prussians in 1870-71, yet in most of the initial battles, they fought the Germans to a standstill against odds of 3 or 4:1 and only retired, usually in good order, as their positions were outflanked. Glorious victories?

However, since Germany/Prussia won both wars relatively quickly and with apparent ease, posterity seems to have given their army an undeserved reputation as “super soldiers”, much the same reputation as the Israeli army acquired in the 1956 and 1967 wars, only to see it humiliated in 1973, but I digress.

During the First World War, this reputation began to unravel. From the outset the Schlieffen Plan started to go wrong. The much-vaunted Imperial General Staff miscalculated how far and fast their armies could march. Their communications and supply arrangements fell apart as the advancing armies lost touch with each other, and in their hubris, they forgot the most important maxim of war, “no plan ever survives first contact with the enemy”. French performance during the first phase of the war is nothing short of remarkable in comparison. Wrong footed and outmanoeuvred, they nevertheless managed to change the entire axis of their operations in time to intercept and stop the German advance at the Marne. They showed the drive, ingenuity and flexibility normally attributed to the German side.

In the east, Tannenberg, although heralded as a stunning tactical triumph, was a strategic disaster for the Germans, and may even have cost them the war. Because of Tannenberg, almost a third of the forces allocated to the vital right wing of the Schlieffen plan were prematurely withdrawn from France to no useful purpose, and Hindenburg and Ludendorf came to the conclusion that defeating Russia would be easy.

With the failure of the Schlieffen plan, the Germans were bereft of any back up plans to win the war. Their sole aim being to hang on to whatever territory they had and to let the allied burn themselves out attacking them. To that end they devoted huge resources to creating acres of trenches and barbed wire defences. Who is more courageous and resourceful, the man that sits behind strong defences, or the man who leave the relative safety of his own to attack his opponent?

When opportunities arose to break the deadlock, [i.e. the use of gas at Ypres and the Verdun offensive] these were totally mismanaged and a myopic, inflexible insistence on outmoded methods doomed thousands of soldiers to unnecessary deaths, yet perversely, this is a charge almost always levelled solely at the allied high command, whereas the Germans retain a mystique of tactical genius.

This is compounded in 1918, when infiltration tactics by “storm troops” was seen by many as evidence of tactical genius and heralded as a new and innovative war winner. Everyone seems to have overlooked that the French invented these tactics in early 1915, and they were widely used and developed by the British between 1915-17. Also overlooked is the fact that the British armies attacked by these “super” stormtroops in 1918 were under strength, thinly spread and attacked at odds of 8:1 or more. The amazing thing was that the British did not collapse. The lines bulged, but the German offensives were contained. The counter attack, when it came drove the Germans out of much of France and Belgium and finally forced the Germans to admit defeat.

The German soldier deserves respect for his courage and devotion, but not awe or veneration. The German army was nothing special but has been hyped up out of all proportion, possibly to over-emphasize the scale of the allied victory, who knows. Ironically, when German soldiers were given Lee Enfield rifles to compare and evaluate with the Kar ’98, the Germans preferred the Lee Enfield.  Wink

 

 

 

 

 

 



Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 04:25

A fascinating thread; I didn't see it mentioned here so... the forces during the franco-prussian war were just over a million troops for the prussians/germans and something like 750,000 up to just under a million for the french empire. 

In regards to Rider's second question; from what I remember the german's fought on an army/corps system using seperate groups or armies based on railroads.  Have several armies traveling by seperate routes to combine together at a certain point to crush the enemy.  The railroads allowed them to bring these armies together but in much larger numbers and keep them all supplied.  Similar to Napoleonic warfare, just larger using those railroads to move more troops and also more quickly.  After the victory over Napoleon III's troops the prussians and their german allies surrounded paris with seperate corps.  The various prussian corps in the north and the bavarian corps in the south.  With others operating on the loire etc.  Moltke the elder was the driving force behind this theory of concentration of power at the key point, which influenced german military theory up until WWII really.
 
Edit:  whoops, just saw I misread rider's second question.  I don't remember their tactical formations as well as strategical.  If I were to hazard a guess I would say they advanced in spread out columns/groups.


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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: deadkenny
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2008 at 21:05
Originally posted by Belisarius57

...French performance during the first phase of the war is nothing short of remarkable in comparison....
 
You seem a little too quick to absolve the French of their failings in trying to support your 'theory' about the German military being 'overrated'.  If the Schlieffen Plan was 'flawed', the French Plan XVII was disasterous and nearly cost the French the war right at the start.  Even given the problems with the Schlieffen Plan, it might have been enough to give Germany the victory given the disasterous French plan, if not for the failure of von Moltke (the younger), who 'missed the point' of the plan and repeatedly weakened the critical right wing and left the left wing too strong.
 
Originally posted by Belisarius57

...In the east, Tannenberg, although heralded as a stunning tactical triumph, was a strategic disaster for the Germans, and may even have cost them the war. Because of Tannenberg, almost a third of the forces allocated to the vital right wing of the Schlieffen plan were prematurely withdrawn from France...
  Are you sure about that figure of 'almost a third', because it sounds way too high to me.  Could you quote specifically the units, or the total number of men, that were transferred?
 
Originally posted by Belisarius57

...This is compounded in 1918, when infiltration tactics by “storm troops” was seen by many as evidence of tactical genius and heralded as a new and innovative war winner. Everyone seems to have overlooked that the French invented these tactics in early 1915, and they were widely used and developed by the British between 1915-17...
 
This is misleading, if not outright incorrect.  The Germans developed the infiltration tactics 'themselves', starting with smaller units as early as 1915, expanding through 1916 to all out efforts against Italy and Russia in 1917.  The fact that the Allies were also working along the same lines themselves during the same period is irrelevant.  The Germans did not  'copy' these tactics from the French or British.


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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana


Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 22:51
Originally posted by Belisarius57

...In the east, Tannenberg, although heralded as a stunning tactical triumph, was a strategic disaster for the Germans, and may even have cost them the war. Because of Tannenberg, almost a third of the forces allocated to the vital right wing of the Schlieffen plan were prematurely withdrawn from France...
 
Originally posted by deadkenny

Are you sure about that figure of 'almost a third', because it sounds way too high to me.  Could you quote specifically the units, or the total number of men, that were transferred?
 
Tannenberg overall was somewhat a risky plan, that's true. However, I have some reservations there.
 
1) Without taking risks, you can not gain any solid gains..
2) Nearly twice outnumbered Germans actually needed such a risky plan to prevent Russian advance in Prussia
3) Despite the transfer of thousands of men in Eastern Part of the Prussian front, this was not something that would have cost Germany "the war". Germans had the intelligence of what Rennenkampf's 1st and Samsonov's 2nd army was doing, thanks to their successful intelligence in decoding Russian speaker codes...And they relied on it while transferring. Samsonov's 2nd army was annihilated before Rennenkampf's 1st can do a huge advance anyway.
 
Originally posted by Belisarius57

...This is compounded in 1918, when infiltration tactics by “storm troops” was seen by many as evidence of tactical genius and heralded as a new and innovative war winner. Everyone seems to have overlooked that the French invented these tactics in early 1915, and they were widely used and developed by the British between 1915-17...
Originally posted by deadkenny

This is misleading, if not outright incorrect.  The Germans developed the infiltration tactics 'themselves', starting with smaller units as early as 1915, expanding through 1916 to all out efforts against Italy and Russia in 1917.  The fact that the Allies were also working along the same lines themselves during the same period is irrelevant.  The Germans did not  'copy' these tactics from the French or British.
 
True, deadkenny...Oskar Von Hutier is the excel of the infiltration tactics...Which proved very well results in final phases in the East, Caporetto, and final Kaiserschlacht and Spring Offensives(indeed, Hutier's group was able to dig a hole in French lines in final offensives, though the rest of the success did not come)


-------------
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli


Posted By: Belisarius57
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 12:48

I’ve been informed someone had responded to my post, so I thought I’d best have a look. I rarely visit or post on this site any more so many apologies for my delayed reply.

 

Originally posted by deadkenny

You seem a little too quick to absolve the French of their failings in trying to support your 'theory' about the German military being 'overrated'. If the Schlieffen Plan was 'flawed', the French Plan XVII was disasterous and nearly cost the French the war right at the start. Even given the problems with the Schlieffen Plan, it might have been enough to give Germany the victory given the disasterous French plan, if not for the failure of von Moltke (the younger), who 'missed the point' of the plan and repeatedly weakened the critical right wing and left the left wing too strong.

 

What a strange remark. Can you point out just where in my post I absolve the French from anything? I merely stated that French performance in recovering the situation in 1914 was truly remarkable in comparison to the Germans failures to remedy their breakdowns in supply, command and communications. Are you saying the Germans had no such breakdowns? If so, then the French achievement is all the more impressive.

 

The Schlieffen plan is generally considered to have been unworkable from the beginning regardless of what von Moltke tinkered with. Schlieffen overestimated the abilities of the German armies marching capacity and underestimated the likely resistance they would encounter. He also failed to adequately factor in the destruction to communications such as roads, railways, etc, in modern warfare which caused a breakdown in the rudimentary German logistic system. It should come as no surprise to learn that the over rated German General Staff never provided for a logistics or communications department in their organisation until after the war, still I suppose they had to learn that lesson the hard way.

 

Originally posted by deadkenny

Are you sure about that figure of 'almost a third', because it sounds way too high to me. Could you quote specifically the units, or the total number of men, that were transferred?

 

Specific numbers are largely irrelevant here. If you’re that interested, look up the actual figures, I’m sure you can work it out for yourself. As I recall off the top of my head it was two Corps transferred during the battle and either 4 or 6 more during the battle of the Marne; I’d have to look it up. What is important, and the point I was making is, that a critical number of German forces that might have proved decisive in the West, spent their time travelling between fronts to no purpose, rather like d’Erlon’s Corps during Ligny and Quatre Bras.

 

Originally posted by deadkenny

This is misleading, if not outright incorrect. The Germans developed the infiltration tactics 'themselves', starting with smaller units as early as 1915, expanding through 1916 to all out efforts against Italy and Russia in 1917.  The fact that the Allies were also working along the same lines themselves during the same period is irrelevant.  The Germans did not 'copy' these tactics from the French or British.

 

My comments are in no way misleading nor in error. I’m afraid you appear to be misinformed about the origins of German so called “Hutier Tactics”. Hutier had nothing to do with inventing German infiltration tactics; this is better attributed to, amongst others, one Captain Rohr, who first encountered French infiltration tactics on the Western Front in 1915. Most WW1 historians including Keegan, Strachan, inter alia. now agree the Germans probably got hold of French training pamphlets and translated them for their own use. Hutier did however appreciate their usefulness and eventually developed Rohr’s ideas into a cohesive system at Corps/Divisional level, in conjunction with Bruchmueller’s artillery tactics, which incidentally, were also based on and developed from methods pioneered by the British and French. This is the system that is correctly termed “Hutier Tactics” as distinct from infiltration tactics used in general. The Germans first used these tactics at Riga in 1917, a year or more after the French and the British were using infiltration tactics extensively up to brigade level. The Allies never bothered to create specific storm troop units, recognizing the limitations and disadvantages such units entailed. This is something Hutier failed to do and the resultant concentration of the best, fittest men into irreplaceable specialist “elite” units dragged down the overall quality of the remaining army. Their heavy losses accelerated the army’s final collapse in 1918. German Storm troop tactics have been given greater prominence due to the initial successes of the Kaiserschlacht than they truly deserve; they were not as successful as many uninformed people think they were. Allied infiltration tactics, on the other hand, in conjunction with air and armoured assets, were far more successful when they were used to break the Hindenburg line and during the 100 days; and these rather than later German ideas formed the basis of modern combined arms operations. The Germans, of course, subsequently copied and developed their “Blitzkrieg” from these allied tactics, for the next war.

 

I’ve scanned many of your posts on this forum and you do appear to hold intensely pro-German views. This is fine with me; I have no problems with patriotism so long as you don’t allow it to close your mind to ideas or historical truths that don’t fit your world view. I hope I’ve clarified my original post to your satisfaction. Until next time. B.Smile



Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 21:13
actually blitzkrieg had nothing to do with anything seen in ww1 except for the battle of megiddo 1918 in palestine. the tanks in ww1 were neither capable nor used in a way Blitzkrieg tactics would demand from them. and considdering the huge assets of cavalry, the Schlieffen plan could have very well worked in ww1 already if it was not for a completely idiotic doctrine and drill that dumbed them down to complete unimportance and waste of ressources.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2010 at 12:54
I had not heard the German soldiers were ever considered to be anything but order followers.  I had heard the advantage of US soldiers is from childhood, they had been taught to be independent thinkers.  This is a particular concern to me because the US replaced its model of education with the Germany model in 1958, with significant social ramifications.  Of course this was done for military reasons.  The German model advances technology rapidly.  This focus on military technology was particularly important in the first world war.  The rest of the world just was not motivated to think in terms of military technology, as the Germans were.  The Prussians lived for a love of military might, like the US was living for a love of God, before it imitated Germany in every significant way. Totally different mind sets.  However, it should be said, this mind set was not the German mind set.  It was the Prussian mind set.  

Germans and Prussians lived in completely different environments, with the result of complete different cultures.  The Germans were congenial, artistic, dreamy and intellectual people, and the Prussians were sour and dour people according to Charles Sarolea's author of "The Anglo-German Problem" published in 1912.    The Germans had the natural resources the Prussians had to have to fulfill their aspirations, of using military force for economic purpose, and the Germans allowed the Prussians to rule, because they didn't think it was in the German nature to make the hard the decisions rulers must make.   I think our whole imagine of Germans was distorted by Prussians.   But I am dependent on old books and can not go back in time to observe this for myself.

There was a major change in the Prussian military leading up to the first world war.  

The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and the highest technical achievement, such as has never been hitherto demanded form any army.  The old military qualities must give way to the organizing qualities.  No doubt the courage and endurance of the individual soldier must remain for all times the foundation of military power, but organizing genius is required in order not to waste that courage and endurance.  This is clearly shown form a mere examination of the colossal numbers engaged.  To transport, to locate, and to feed these masses of men is the daily preoccupation of the military authorities.  That they rightly understand the nature of the problem is certain, but it is very doubtful whether the problem can ever be adequately solved by commanders who are recruited from the Junkertum.  Mere military capacity does not suffice here.  Both enemies and friends admit that our corps of officers possess such military capacity.  Anxiety only arises with regard to their other qualifications.  We know that our nation possess in its industries successful organizers, brains accustomed to direct great quantities of material and "personnel"....  Dr. Friedrich Naumann
  

It has been said the organizing genius of Germany wasn't that good, but we should understand the reliance on the hierarchy of authority was absolute.   Germans followed orders.

And to make a long story short, think- Halliburton.  Look at the change in the US military.  It hires out much of the operations that were all done by the military in previous wars.   Before 1958 that US did not have a standing military industry.  Now we assume the government will spend millions on military research, and entire towns are dependent on military industry.  Cheney was invested in the defense  and tied to Halliburton.  I don't mean to take this thread off track, but this change begins with Prussians leading up to the first world war, and hopefully some will remember when we were organized differently, and the military took care of all its own needs.  



 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 17:48
Originally posted by Carol

I had not heard the German soldiers were ever considered to be anything but order followers.  I had heard the advantage of US soldiers is from childhood, they had been taught to be independent thinkers.  This is a particular concern to me because the US replaced its model of education with the Germany model in 1958, with significant social ramifications.  
 
You are oversimplifying the German military.  German society as a whole was known for obediance. The German military encouraged independent thinking and allowed junior leaders far more freedom of action and creativity than other armies did. During both WWI and WWII, the Germans routinely allowed experienced NCOS to lead platoons and if necessary, companies.  Great Britain and the U.S., in contrast, refused to assign NCOS to "officer positions".
 
Following WWII, the Israelis were looking for a military to serve as a role model.  They  picked the German Wermacht despite the fact Moshe Dayan and other Israeli commanders had served in the British system.   
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010 at 23:02
Originally posted by Cryptic

Originally posted by Carol

I had not heard the German soldiers were ever considered to be anything but order followers.  I had heard the advantage of US soldiers is from childhood, they had been taught to be independent thinkers.  This is a particular concern to me because the US replaced its model of education with the Germany model in 1958, with significant social ramifications.  
 
You are oversimplifying the German military.  German society as a whole was known for obediance. The German military encouraged independent thinking and allowed junior leaders far more freedom of action and creativity than other armies did. During both WWI and WWII, the Germans routinely allowed experienced NCOS to lead platoons and if necessary, companies.  Great Britain and the U.S., in contrast, refused to assign NCOS to "officer positions".
 
Following WWII, the Israelis were looking for a military to serve as a role model.  They  picked the German Wermacht despite the fact Moshe Dayan and other Israeli commanders had served in the British system.   
 
 

I am guessing NCOS is non commissioned officers?   In times of war, young kids can raise through the ranks very fast.   I don't really have a good idea of what you are talking about.  However, I do know in 1917 J.A.B. Sinclair, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland Recruiting Station, Portland, Oregon, spoke to the National Education Association 

"The German military organization is the world's model, at least from the standpoint of immediate accomplishment  of results, and there we can do better than too emulate it in its perfect working."  Mind you he is speaking to teachers and school principles.   He is not talking about how the military is organized, but about how education must prepare a civilization for war.   Prussian generals were discussing this long before anyone in the US became aware of it.   Anyway, Sinclair goes on to say..

"Skilled workers have always been in demand.  But the art of war is just now undergoing a scientific  revolution as seen in the machine gun, the aeroplane, the hydro-aeroplane.  The forty-two-centimeter, 20-mile asphyxiating-gas-shell-hurling artillery wireless communication from the sky for fire direction, and auto trucks that have raised the rate of march for infantry from fifteen to one hundred and twenty miles a day, as in Gallieni's flank movement for the defense of Paris.  Auto machines have been fitted with the scythes of Boadicea to slash thru wire entanglement, and, turreted for rapid-fire guns, span trenches and emulate the destructiveness on land of the submarines in the sea.  Searchlights have made every commander a veritable Joshua, who can prolong the day for the enemy's slaughter.  A new art of war has sprung full armed from the battlefields of Europe.  These improvements in the art of killing call for a very great horde of skilled mechanics.  The teaching of these should be supplied by the trade school.  Our need for an organization which will be capable of utilizing new knowledge thus made necessary, promptly available, is imperative.  Our enemies already have this knowledge and have taken advantage of it in their organization.  ....."

Mind you this is only the first world war.  Air warfare and the nuclear bomb created even more pressure for replacing liberal education with education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  The social ramifications of this are huge.  


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by Carol

I am guessing NCOS is non commissioned officers?
Yes, NCO is a widely used acronymn for non commisioned officer or sargeant. 
Originally posted by Carol

   In times of war, young kids can raise through the ranks very fast.  
True, but it was more complex than that. The British, French and to a lesser exent American armies had the concept of an "Officer Class" drawn from the upper classes of society.  
 
As a result, potential leaders who were from a farm or working class background (NCOS) were denied opportunities to lead units in the British and French Armies.  The U.S. military was less stringent, but was still reluctant to assign NCOs (working class) to officer positions.  The Germans, despite their "robotic" stereotype, were far more flexible.
Originally posted by Carol

I don't really have a good idea of what you are talking about.  

"The German military organization is the world's model, at least from the standpoint of immediate accomplishment  of results, and there we can do better than too emulate it in its perfect working."
As Sinclair noted, the Germans were known for military excellence.  The Germans could not have achieved this excellence in the Franco- Prussian war, WWI, and WWII by being unthinking robots.  This excellence was achieved by emphasizing creativity and imagination at all levels of command and at all ranks.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 10:24
Yes, the Prussian/German acceptance of working class people into the higher ranks, as opposed to the French and English class division is, why past President Eisenhower, praised the Germans for their contribution to democracy.   This point was argued by the Prussians who previously had a class divisions, coming from feudalism I believe, when being a knight was an honor, and only boys from wealthy families could hope to have this honor.  Their training began age 7, and it is ridiculous to think just any peasant could be a good military man, right?  Wink   

Whenever speaking of Germans, I think of the reputation as wild warriors.  This is complete individualism in battle.  They had significant victories in wars with Romans, who were disciplined, right?  So there is a progression form individual glory being possible to anyone entering a battle, to an elitism and back to being equals, but with a difference.

That difference is "merit".   There is equal opportunity, up to a point.  A person must have proven merit to advance.   However, there is a ranking system, a hierarchy of authority/power.    I do not believe encouragement to be creative, means acting out of the boundaries of rank.   The Prussians narrowly defined each position, and anyone who filled that position would do the job exactly the same as the person before.  Creativity in how the job was done would not be okay, and here is why...  

In the US before we learned efficiency from the Germans, everyone did their own thing.  In a bureaucracy, how each individual did his job, depended on this individuals particular personality and skills.   Getting a job was largely about being related to someone, or liked by the person doing the hiring.  We are talking real loosey goosey here.  When someone dies or otherwise left the organization, it was devastating to the whole organization.  Everything around this person would change, because the new person to do the job would have a different personality and different skills, and want to do things differently.   

Here is the Prussian genius.   They paid exacting attention to what needed to be done, and defined every job in detail.  Now we have something to go on when determining the merits required for this job.  Who the person is and who the person knows, doesn't mean squat.  What we want to know is can the person do this, this, and that?   Hold in mind, this is how determine if the peasant is the man we want in this job.  This is how to equal opportunity, and why Eisenhower praised the Germans for their contribution to democracy.  Now everyone who fills the position will do the job exactly the same as the person before, and there is no disruption.  This is vital on the battle front where people are killed.   It turns the military force into a military machine, that can not be stopped by taking out keys men.   

It took us a long time to adopt this model, and we did at a price, with huge social ramification!  I have witnessed this change in my life time.  We have gone from being assimilated into organizations threw personal contacts and on the job training, to having a college degree, and proven merit, before we can even get through the door.   Our whole society is becoming mechanical as was Germany.   We are even worse, because we are hung up on empirical information than the Germans.   In away this hurts our democracy, which is much more personal than we are today.  

The bottom line is- the Prussians went from an aristocrat military, to a people's military force.  This opened positions of rank to anyone with proven merit.  At the same time, it is a strong organization, than is completely impersonal.  Every position is well defined, and anyone in that position will do the job exactly as the person before.   Just as anyone can rise in the ranks, everyone is dispensable.   Who you are doesn't matter, only what you can do, and it doesn't matter if you drop dead, because you are replaceable.  

Now consider the social implications of this.Wink 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 16:30
Originally posted by Carol

Whenever speaking of Germans, I think of the reputation as wild warriors.  This is complete individualism in battle.  They had significant victories in wars with Romans, who were disciplined, right?  So there is a progression form individual glory being possible to anyone entering a battle, to an elitism and back to being equals, but with a difference.
A very interesting thought.  I have never seen it put that way before. Previous threads here focused on the military efficiency of team work (disciplined units) over glory seeking individual warriors.  The social history pattern aspect was left out.
Originally posted by Carol

We have gone from being assimilated into organizations threw personal contacts and on the job training, to having a college degree, and proven merit, before we can even get through the door.  
The old way had some inefficiencies (everyone started at the bottom, seniority system slowed the advance of other talented people etc.)   But... the old way also had a social safety valve. It gave meaningful employment to millions who would not normally been able to compete.
 
Originally posted by Carol

  In away this hurts our democracy, which is much more personal than we are today.  
The economic meritocracy may do more than hurt our democracy, it may clash violently with it.  Consider the following: 
-The IQ based meritocracy is now global and ruthlessly competitive.
-IQ, however, is a bell curve. In the end millions of people simply cannot compete.
-The old, well paid "safety valve" jobs have disappeared
-We have a wide open deomcracy, people are used to being heard, they are not used to being quiet or accepting things. 
 
One can see the potential for instability.  Then factor in....
 
Capital is very fluid now.  Leaders of the meritocracy can move entire industries to find employees with more merit.  In the old system, Ford, Krupp, Fiat etc were tied to their home regions. They had a long term interest in the well being of the masses.  Today, leaders of the meritocracy can have little long term  interest in the area.  If things get tough, they just move to India, China etc.
Originally posted by Carol

The bottom line is- the Prussians went from an aristocrat military, to a people's military force.  This opened positions of rank to anyone with proven merit.  At the same time, it is a strong organization, than is completely impersonal.  Every position is well defined, and anyone in that position will do the job exactly as the person before.   Just as anyone can rise in the ranks, everyone is dispensable.   Who you are doesn't matter, only what you can do, and it doesn't matter if you drop dead, because you are replaceable.  
Well said.  As a side note, the Prussians may have copied Napoleon.  Napoleon instituted a military meritocracy as well backed by phenomenal orgainization.  One of Napoleon's key commanders was the son of a grocer. Another was a former "warf rat".  


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 08:25
Thank God, someone else who sees both the good and the bad!   I want to say so much in response to what you said, Cryptic, but that would be taking this thread off topic.  Might we just say, the progression of the military changes in Germany, lead to a whole society that was obedient to authority, and did not question authority.   Charles Sarolea, writes of a very funny situation resulting in this blind obedience to authority in his 1912 book.  Religion of course played into this obedience of authority.  The bible has much to say about the importance of obedience to authority.  The Bible without lessons for democracy, is not a good thing, but exasperates the problem of authority, and that is what you had in Germany.  There are also the philosophers Nietzcshe and Hegel. 

I am surprised little thought is given to the over all social interplay with military order and social order.  War is good for religion and religion is good for war.   

Martin Luther wrote a huge number of books, which fortunately are available to me through the local university.  Basing his understanding of humans on the bible, God ordains some to be masters, and others to be servants.  From there, many passages in the Bible speak of the rightness of obedience to authority.  Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Protestant Reformation.  These were strongly religious people, who want to believe God is in control.  They did not resist the authority above them, because they believed a good Christian obeys authority, and God will intervene if things are going against his will.  You may know some Christians today, who believe like this, and believed Bush was doing the will of God when he invaded Iraq.   This is important to the military power that Germany had, under Prussian control.

Prussians lived for military might, and the Germans were obedient Christians, trusting the will of God is done. Bismark applied Prussian military bureaucracy to citizens, and this what makes national programs like a nation pension plan possible.  You see, the whole society comes under military control in the form of social programs.  Also the culture honored military men, as the US honored industrial leaders.  There is a lot going on socially that leads to military might and visa versa.   




Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 17:10
Originally posted by Carol

  I want to say so much in response to what you said, Cryptic, but that would be taking this thread off topic.  
lets start a new topic:
 
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28618&PID=637195#637195 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28618&PID=637195#637195
 
Originally posted by Carol

 The Bible without lessons for democracy, is not a good thing, but exasperates the problem of authority, and that is what you had in Germany.  There are also the philosophers Nietzcshe and Hegel. 
 
Martin Luther wrote a huge number of books, which fortunately are available to me through the local university.  Basing his understanding of humans on the bible, God ordains some to be masters, and others to be servants.  From there, many passages in the Bible speak of the rightness of obedience to authority.  
 
I agree, but I think you are being a little hard on Christianity.  All religous systems emphasize obediance and teach that the traditional social order is part of the divine plan. For example, Imperial Japan, though non Christian, produced the same level of obediance as Prussia. Confucian China demanded obediance to the "mandate of heaven".  Hinduism's caste system exactly codifies the existance  divenly ordained authority figures.   
 
Ironically, atheistic communism demanded and received absolute blind obediance in Stalinist Russia and Maoist China.  I think the most bizare cases of absolute obediance occured here.
Originally posted by Carol

  You see, the whole society comes under military control in the form of social programs.  Also the culture honored military men, as the US honored industrial leaders.  There is a lot going on socially that leads to military might and visa versa.   
I agree. Germany pured every ounce of leadership talent into its military.  I also agree about your point on social movements and military might. I have never thought of it before. It makes perfect sense, the military might of WWI needed a disciplined society and a disciplined economy to create and support it properly.
 
Originally posted by Carol

 You may know some Christians today, who believe like this, and believed Bush was doing the will of God when he invaded Iraq.  
I do. This is very frighting that military policy was linked to some interpertations of the Book of Revelations.  It is very close to the Ayatollah Khomeini planning battles in the Iran - Iraq war based on interpertations of battles in the Koran.


Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 15:51
The Germans did some vicious things during WW1 (as did their British and French enemies) but they had the coolest uniforms and weapons:


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 20:15
From "The Anglo-German Problem" published in 1915

Dr. Friedrich Naumann has emphasized the fundamental differences between the war of yesterday and the war of to-morrow, and has pointed out what will be the chief difficulties the military command will have to contend with.

The war of the future is a problem of economic organization of the most difficult nature and the highest technical achievement, such as as never been hitherto demanded from any army.  The old military qualities must give way to the organizing qualities.  No doubt the courage and endurance of the individual soldier must remain for all times the foundation of military power, but organizing genius is required in order not to waste that courage and endurance.  This is clearly shown from a mere examination of the colossal numbers engaged.  To transport, to locate, and to feed these masses of men is the daily preoccupation of the military authorities.  That they rightly understand the nature of the problem is certain, but it is very doubtful whether the problem can ever be adequately solved by commanders who are not recruited from the Junkertum.  Mere military capacity does not suffice here.  Both enemies and friends admit that our corps of officers possess such military capacity.   Anxiety only arises with regard to their other qualifications.  We know that our nation possesses in its industries successful organizers, brains accustomed to direct great quantities of material and "personnel" - men who create new conditions of life for whole economic districts without having to appeal to any mystical authority.  As democratic politicians we may often have to oppose bitterly those captains of industry, but if it come to war we shall be willing to be led by them, because we know that they have the brains.  It is true that they much not meddle with technical duties of the officers, but the administration of the war material must be their province.  And even with regard to the technique of war, it becomes from year to year more questionable whether this can be managed more efficiently by a corps of noblemen than by the representatives of middle class technique.  However much we may value the moral qualities of the old ruling class- and, with all political differences of opinion, we shall not minimize those qualities- we must admit that we are witnessing a transformation of methods of attack and defence which in addition to the old question of iron discipline raises the modern question: how far shall we be able on the battle field to replace the human unit through machinery?  It is obvious that this will never succeed completely, for there does not exist a machine which does not need a human soul to work it.  At the same time it is doubtless that in this direction mighty changes are at hand.  We can see here a repetition of the process which we notice in nearly all industries- the subordination and displacement of human labour in mines, machines, and means of transport.  If you examine a weaving mill you shall find comparatively few men; but those units must have the mechanical ability in the blood.  Those conditions do already exist to a large extent in naval warfare.  Ships are built and equipped with an insignificant number of men compared their fighting power.  But those men must work like animated machines.  Even so the air fleet of to-morrow will demand a large amount of technical application and technical ability, but very few military units.  War is becoming impersonal, and is becoming reduced to a rivalry of money and economics.  That even  here military members of the nobility may achieve great results is shown by the admirable example of Count Zeppelin.  But the impression remains that there still survive in the army the traditions of the pre.industrial age- traditions not only of loyalty and discipline, but also of technical ignorance.  We have still too much of the parade soldier whose knees are more pliable then his fingers or his brain.  The industrializing of the army is coming, but very slowly.  It begins with the artillery, but it ends at the cavalry.  We have still failed fully to realize that under a system of universal service  a nation pays and labours in order that its weapons shall be absolutely of the first class.  The nation which can put the best technique into the military service will probably, in the altered conditions of modern warfare, achieve victory.   



Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 05-Apr-2011 at 22:33

Cryptic, you picked up on the connection between military order and social order, and I want to deepen understanding of this.  Notice Dr. Friedrich Naumann, concludes with the importance of education.

We have still too much of the parade soldier whose knees are more pliable then his fingers or his brain.  The industrializing of the army is coming, but very slowly.  It begins with the artillery, but it ends at the cavalry.  We have still failed fully to realize that under a system of universal service  a nation pays and labours in order that its weapons shall be absolutely of the first class.  The nation which can put the best technique into the military service will probably, in the altered conditions of modern warfare, achieve victory.  


Now here is what J.A.B. Sincliar, Surgeon, United States Navy, Portland, Oregon Recruiting Station, Portland, Oregon had to say that the 1917 National Education Association Conference.

"As  sudden as was the act of an unknown youth whose leap exploded the European powder mine was the stroke of the German military machine, and the momentum with which the war of wars developt was the most amazing feature of the world's cataclysm.  This is proved by the startling fact that in less than three months the losses in killed, wounded, and missing was a million men, and nine nations, numbering in fighters eighteen million souls, were at war.  Such a state and such events were possible only thru the workings of the most highly organized and scientifically operated military machine the world has ever known, and well it was for that machine's opponents that they too were in a measure organized after the same general plan.

One of the most salient features of the opposing military-naval establishments of the European nations at war today is the specialization of the one time citizen now soldier along scientific war industrial trade lines, and since past and present events and the best human forecast do not justify the human hope for early world peace- it behooves the citizens of this our country, now adding its part to this well-nigh universal conflict, to train its young men to think and work in like scientific lines to the end that mobilization of these resources may insure our nation against disaster.  

The German military organization is the world's model, at least from the standpoint of immedicate accomplishment of results, and therefore we hardly do better than to emulate it in its perfect working.  It was effected in its minutest detail by the very essence of scientific thought and application.  In that organization every tongue fitted its groove, every tooth its socket.  We have seen how Kaiser's marvelous soldiers carried their banner to the very outskirts of Paris in August and September, 1914.  It is the Great God efficiency, to which the Germans were required by their commanders to pay homage of worship- and it behooves us either to effect a thing that will operate as well or to copy theirs.  The fact of the world at war has silenct the erring lips that declared against the necessity for preparation against disaster, like that of Belgium and Servia."


Industry in the US wanted to close the schools, claiming they were not getting their monies worth from education, because they still had to train new employees.  Had industry in the US won this argument, it would have brought an end to the child labor laws that kept children out of the factories during school hours, and our children would have been condemned to being low wage, ignorant factory workers with no hope for better lives.  The Protestant work ethic and ideas of sinners and salvation, could have held us back in the dark ages.   Christians in the US did protest against the addition of science to education.   But because modern warfare, demanded technologically trained men, and schools were the best institution we had for mobilizing our country, our schools were not closed.  

However, we continue liberal education until 1958, when we passed the National Defense Education Act, and replace our liberal education, with Germany's model of education for technology for military and industrial purpose.  In 1958 Eisenhower embedded the Military Industrial Complex in the US, and today we are what Germany hoped to be, and the social and economic ramifications are huge!    

I really want to add what Tocqueville had to say about democratic nations with democratic military order to our thinking, but I think that might need to be another thread.  Although Dr. Friedrich Naumann, did mention the democratic change of the armed forces, and this is important to the success of their military forces.   Democracy, industry and technology revolutionized our social order and consciousness, separating us from the past, as much as man kind running around on two legs is separated from apes swinging in trees.   This is no longer the Jeffersonian democracy of our forefathers.  



Posted By: Serge
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 14:51
Germany was never really fully united between late 1400's until 1871 so their military was mainly focused on small conflicts with their close neighbors or later small earldoms which are authentically German SmileSo to think logically-could have Germany wielded a large army capable of conquering its neighbors in a long war during the world war I?No!That's one of the main reasons for Germany's failure in the great war...Therefore Germany wasn't very strong for that time. 

-------------
Lord of the rings fan


Posted By: Galleon
Date Posted: 14-Apr-2011 at 14:58

I recommend this book:

 
 
 
Title: Imperial Germany Military Officers ---Head Dress
 
 
 
@Serge, welcome to the forum by the way! Clap
 


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2011 at 10:41
Originally posted by Nick1986

The Germans did some vicious things during WW1 (as did their British and French enemies) but they had the coolest uniforms and weapons:
Yes, but I think the soldiers in the drawings are stormtroopers.  Stormtrooper batalions were given the best of everything.  The equipment given to ordinary German reserve units included alot of circa 1870, Franco-Prussian war surplus stuff.


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 15-Apr-2011 at 15:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army

This is an excellent site.  The Prussians unified Germany, and institutionalized military affairs.  This is what I have been writing about, and it applies to the US as well.  Only the US didn't take the necessary steps, including the education part of being a military state, until 1958.   I am stressing the education point, because of the comment that I over simplify the German reality, and seem to know the that Germans were known for being obedient to authority.  My friends and I are horrified by young receptionist who follow orders, and seem completely clueless about a reality other than the procedures they learn.  We no longer question how the Jews were put to death, because we see that same order following mentality today, in the US.  

After several military failures, it was determined the common soldier was a fit soldier, but it was the commanders who caused the failures, because they came out of a class system, the old order.   The new order, the one Eisenhower praised the Germans for and brought into the US, is based on merit not social status. 

I think we need a better understanding of the terms "old order" and "new order" and of why Eisenhower praised the Germans for their contributions to democracy.  


Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2011 at 12:24
Originally posted by Serge

Germany was never really fully united between late 1400's until 1871 so their military was mainly focused on small conflicts with their close neighbors or later small earldoms which are authentically German SmileSo to think logically-could have Germany wielded a large army capable of conquering its neighbors in a long war during the world war I?No!That's one of the main reasons for Germany's failure in the great war...Therefore Germany wasn't very strong for that time. 


You are missing an understanding of Prussian military bureaucracy, and how applying this to citizens, it becomes possible to mobilize a nation for war in a short time.   Germany was very strong when it engaged in the first world war, and had the most advanced military technology of the day, because this was the intent of public education, which began with kindergarten.   West Germans who wanted nothing to do with war and the hard work of unifying Germany, surrendered to the Prussians, as a good wife obeys her husband.  West Germans were dreamy, idealist and friendly people, who trusted God's will be done.  Prussians loved military might as the people of the US (Western Germany too) loved God.   Yes, in a short time, the Prussians were able to convert all the resources of Germany, into a a very powerful military machine. 

Am I wasting my time here, or is anyone paying attention to the quotes I am taking from books written when history was made?    Those quotes are not copy and paste, but take time to convert from the books to the computer.  The information seems to be ignored? 


Posted By: Mountain Man
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2012 at 21:42
Very interesting discussion - Thumbs Up

Just a couple of comments.  The first is to expand on one of Belasarius's comments:

The Germans, and every other belligerent, got a shockingly fast lesson in the disintegration of ordinary roads subjected to military usage.  Roads were rapidly reduced to impassable bogs in any sort of rain, the surfaces broken by the passage of horses, vehicles, and heavy guns.  The French should have known this, thanks to the campaigns of Napoleon when he ruined every road he used as well.  So should the Germans.

The Schlieffen Plan failed to take into account how the Belgians and their allies might feel about being invaded.  That always seemed like a very elementary failure to me.

The war was as much about settling old scores and "cleansing" as it was about anything else, which led to a lot of atrocities committed by many nations.

Lastly, Germany did not welcome commoners into the Officer Corps, nor were they accepted willingly or gracefully.  Troops were made into officers to fill the terrible gaps left by the dead and wounded, but they were not welcomed into an Officers Corp traditionally made up from nobility and the privileged.  They were a necessary evil in the eyes of the German High Command.  The old Prussian traditions did not die easily, and it should be noted that when Hitler - an enlisted man in WWI -  rose to power, he retained an intense dislike for the officers with "von" and "zu" attached to their names throughout WWII.  He was most comfortable around officers without pedigrees.

WWI was the war that put an end to the class of officers of nobility and privilege by kililng most of them, but to their credit, they died leading from the front, even the generals.


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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?



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