Bilingual nations in Europe
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13987
Printed Date: 18-May-2024 at 10:03
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Bilingual nations in Europe
Posted By: Majkes
Subject: Bilingual nations in Europe
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 03:23
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Which nations were speaking in 2 languages in Europe?
In Poland Latin and Polish were two official languages. Lithuanians were speking in Rus language, Polish and Latin. Lithuanian language was used by lower classes of society. What other such nations do You know?
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Replies:
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 03:46
Never heard of such a language... and why would Lithuanians be speaking in Russian, shouldn't they be speaking in their Baltic language?
I could say that for a 94%, the United Kingdom of Sweden and Norway spoke in two languages: Norwegian and Swedish.
Also, I believe that the Empire of Charles V had more than three or so langauages.
*Note: I am using the present and future tenses here, speaking of the past. Do not be confused. ------------- |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 04:26
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Lithuanians were speaking in starocerkiewny ( I don't know how it is English ). It was language in which Western Rus was speaking. Lithuanian was mainly used by lower classes. On Lithuanian court before Union with Poland this starocerkiewny language was officially used. They adopted it from conquered Rus duchies. Lithuanians were very tollerant for conquered people. Rus duchies were cullturaly higher than Lithuanians. I'm also not sure if it was really written Lithuanian in the period. Do You think that Swedish were speaking Norwegian? I'm not so sure about it. Maybe they understood each other cause languages are similar. But I wanted to ask about countries in which there wer other foreign language than their own as official. In Poland whole gentry spoke in Latin. It was necessary language. Latin was official language in Poland before Polish and later on both languages were used at the same level. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 05:06
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Luxembourgers speak Lëtzebuergesch as their 'mother's knee' family, and it is now one of the country's three official languages. It was only made one a few years ago (ten?); until then the country's official languages were French and German, both of which were and are compulsorily learnt from primary school on.
Adoption of their local language as official has been part of a surprising growth in Luxembourgish nationalism in the last 25 years.
Belgium has three official languages, French, Flemish, and German, but they are the majority languages in three different areas.
Lëtzebuergesch is still spoken in the Belgian province of Luxembourg, as it still is in those parts of Germany and France that historically were part of Luxembourg, but it isn't official anywhere else. ------------- |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 09:11
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Spain has several languages and distict dialets
Castillian, or "Spanish"
Basque Pre Indo European language
Catatlan Spanish / French based sperate language
Galician Distinct Dialect or possible seperate language of Galicia region
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 09:44
accualy its dutch flemish is a dialect in belgium like you have the dialects in both dutch and belgian
Brabants(south holland)
Oost)vlaams(east flanders)
Antwerps(east flanders)
Limburg(dutch & belgian) there the same and you have
Noord-hollands dialect(region of amstedam)
Zuid-hollands dialect(region of rotterdam)
zeews dialect( soth west netherland) and my favourite
Fries(north holland I seriously doubt that this dialect is of the dutch language it sounds more danish)
well have a good one  ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 10:08
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Fries(north holland I seriously doubt that this dialect is of the dutch language it sounds more danish)
Actually, Frisian is an officially recognised language in the Netherlands, the only one next to Dutch. Nethersaxon and Limburghs are recognised as seperate languages, but not as official ones outside of their regions. All the others you mentioned are dialects.
Frisian is the language closest connected to Old-English. Old-English, Dutch and Frisian are all part of the Saxon branch of the West-Germanic languages, and these are most closely connected to Niederdeutsch. Danish is part of the Nord-Germanic languages, which split off earlier, but there are regions along the north-sea coast in Denmark where people speak a dialect very close to Frisian.
But as for the question: I do not think there is any country in Europe where there are not two or more languages spoken... ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 12:17
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Aelfgifu is absolutely right. As I have already stated many times here before, bilingualism/multilingualism is the norm rather than the exception all over the world. We have the impression that it's rare just because it's an "Anglo-American" norm, but even that is changing in certain parts of the United States as there are more and more Americans bilingual in English and Spanish. ------------- |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 13:18
------------- . |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 14:31
| Well, this subject was suppose to be about Early Modern period. If we talk about present there are many nations that have official languages but it was diffrent in the past. What were the reasons that some countries had few languages and this not other would be interesting. For Lithuanians e.g. it was lack of written form and lack of many words which would describe reality. Also that conquered people were more civilized than their conquerors and Lithuanians didn't take offence from that but accepted it. |
Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 14:38
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Sami is an official language in Sweden,Norway and Finland.
Switzerland has four official languages.
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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 15:25
I thought I was being tactful in case there were any Flemings listening
 I know the Dutch call it Dutch.
Incidentally it shouldn't be forgotten that the United Kingdom certainly recognises Welsh as an official language, and I think Gaelic (though I'm not sure about that). ------------- |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 15:26
yeah french german italian and an old roman sort of language right, what is it called again and how manny speakers? ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 17:37
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The fourth language is something called like Romanian or Retoromanian whatever that meant. The speaking percentege is below 4% if I remember correctly. ------------- |
Posted By: Peter III
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 00:04
| I always thought that most nations spoke two languages, one among the aristocracy and monarchy, and one among the lower and more common classes. |
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 02:49
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This is true, but was the language that the nobility spoke a national language or just a fashion?
In that manner however, in Estonia they spoke Russian, German, Swedish, Polish and Estonian. ------------- |
Posted By: John Lenon
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 10:24
Agree with Peter III. Good examples are:
1. Baltic states: Latvia - nobles were germans - of course they speak German, common class used their own language - latvian.
2. Norway: Nobles (Dutch, after them Swedish) - one language, common people - their own language. I think because of this today thera are 2 official Norwagian laguages.
3. Some time later in Russia (18-19 century) nobles spoke ... French
 It was good manner to speak French and most of Russian aristocracy knew this language better then Russian  |
Posted By: Cent
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 10:47
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Finland. I think they have Finnish and Swedish. ------------- They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this. Abdul Rahman Qassemlou |
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 12:47
I am scared  ....terribly .... Dutch in Norway------------- |
Posted By: John Lenon
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 13:01
I want to say Danes (Denmark) 
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Posted By: Frederick Roger
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 17:36
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Portugal has Portuguese and Mirandease. ------------- |
Posted By: Moustafa Pasha
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 21:10
| Switzerland has not two but four official languages:German',French,Italian and Romanche. |
Posted By: Barbarroja
Date Posted: 17-Aug-2006 at 06:01
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Nowadays in Spain Castilian or Spanish (i don't like to say Spanish for a regional language that has became official by force) is the official language and is spoken by everybody but we have more languages.
Galician (probably portuguese comes from that).
Basque (non indo-european language)
Catalan (with some dialects like Valencian, Mallorquí, etc., that is also spoken in France, Andorra and Italy (Alguer))
But also Aragonese and bable or Asturian that are wery low spoken.
And in the Aran Valley is spoken a ialect of Occitan or Porvenzal.
In the past also Arab and many arabs or latin dialects were spoken. ------------- I'm sorry but my English is not very good. I'm from Vila-real (Valencia, Spain) |
Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 14:24
It was ruthenian language, not russian. And it wasn't very widely speaking in ethnic Lithuania, most of them spoke in lithuanian language and defended it. Only in XIX century belorusan language reached almost all east Lithuania.
Later, after union ..is easy to understand why nobles started to speak in polish. Polish language was main in our Republic.
And first writings in lithuanain we find only in XVI century, but it's very posible that there was earlier doccuments:
http://www.istorija.net/lituanistica/ - http://www.istorija.net/lituanistica/ - some old texts in lithuanian, more i have in one book, but don't have scanner. It's strange for me that for lithuanians even in Prussia were written text in lithuanian....
Looks like we always was cosmopolits...
 ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 16:45
I know it wasn't Russian cause there were no Russia yet. You are right it was ruthenian, I forgot how it is called. From what I know Lithuanian court was using ruthenian before Union in Krewo and some time after the Union.
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Posted By: Svyturys
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2006 at 17:32
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And even in XVI century sometimes was. I Have few doccuments of court in ruthenian.
But as i know in Poland polish language was also very unused till XVI century. Main were latin? Because then main languages wasn't ethnic languages, but languages that was popular. For examply in all west Europe main language was latin, in East - ruthenian was more known. But it isn't reason to call it MAIN LANGUAGE, like we understand MAIN today. Lithuanians spoke lithuanian, ruthenians in ruthenian. ------------- Every moment, like last, neither earth, nor sky don't calculate time. Left only one heart in scorched bosom. Throbing only drums again, calling us into battle. |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 04:34
It is because of the Danes there are two Norwegian languages, but not in the way you would think. During the time the Danish ruled over Norway, Norsk, which was a pretty small language to begin with, pretty much dissappeared. After the Danes left, the Norwegians literally had to reconstruct their own language. The two resulting languages are a difference in opinion on the best interpretation. So Norwegian is a pretty new and also a bit artificial.... -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 06:23
In Poland Latin and Polish were two equal official languages. All nobles knew Latin and polish. Lower classes only Polish. First texts written in Polish are from XIIIth Century. Written Polish became popular as You said in XVIth century. It was made popular by poets like Mikołaj Rej. In Poland we can call Latin main language as well as Polish.
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Posted By: Cywr
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 09:57
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Officialy, the UK is bilingual, even if most of the English majority would rather pretend it isn't. -------------  Arrrgh!!"
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Posted By: Jorsalfar
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2006 at 13:44
The two languages are Bokmål and Nynorsk. Bokmål is a Norwegianized ( wonder if i can use that word?) kind of Danish. Norwegians always spoke different than Danes. So Bokmål is a language created to suit Norwegian pronouncation and words that were invented by Norwegians or survived the Danish 400 years rule. But Bokmål has mainly derived from Danish.
Nynorsk however is language that is shaped by the Norwegian dialects that survived Danish linguistic reign. The dialects derived from old Norwegian/Norse and thus Nynorsk has close ties to Icelandic. Most Norwegians speak dialects which have a lot of similarity with Icelandic/Norse.
I understand that it is complicated.This is (believe it or not) a simple summary of the history of the two Norwegian languages.
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Posted By: Renegade
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 20:56
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The most bilingual is definately Switzerland: German, French, Italian, and Romache. Though I think that French is being the most over-represented in the group.
------------- "I kill a few so that many may live." - Sam Fisher |
Posted By: John Lenon
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 13:29
Ruthenia means Rus' in latin transcription. Oficial written language of Great Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia and Samogitia was slavic language most closest to modern belorussian (clear why ).
As I know there are a lot of theories about that (one counter to another - Lituanian/Belorussian).
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Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 15:41
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It was more like the middle ages than the early modern period but in England the nobility spoke french, the lower classes english. Started really with William the Conqueror and ended I believe in the middle of the 15th century due to the hundred years war. ------------- "War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 04:18
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There is also a small slavic minority group in Germany, who live in easternmost Saxony and they speak "Sorbisch". Also in Germany around the border regions, the language of the neighboring country is officially taught in schools. Danish, for example, in northern Schleswig-Holstein, Dutch along the border with the Netherlands. In most of East GErmany Russian is still taugh in schools.
Also in the Vatican, both Italian and Latin are official languages. In Lichtenstein both high German and Allemansh (a German dialoect) are spoken. By the way, Renegade, I think that both French AND German are the two main languages spoken in Switzerland. I think they are about equal in representation. |
Posted By: QueenCleopatra
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 07:31
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In Ireland we speak Irish and English. English would the main one but there are some parts of the country which still speak Gaelic fluently and we all do it as a subject through School. ------------- Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile |
Posted By: Sirona
Date Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 11:23
According to my family members, German speakers are somewhat more numerous in Switzerland. Maybe it's their Suisse-Romande paranoia though.  I didn't know Luxembourg had a completely different language. Is it like the Romanche language in Switzerland? To which language is it most related to? I'd love to hear it. |
Posted By: Decebal
Date Posted: 31-Oct-2006 at 13:17
Uh no, German is the most widely spoken, with about 60-odd percent, then French with about 15-20%, Italian with around 10, and Romanche with about 4%.
There are very many examples of multilingual countries in the early modern period, the most blatant being the Austro-Hungarian empire, with two official languages, and with about a half dozen more being spoken by the inhabitants (GErman, Hungarian, Serbo-Croat, Slovak, Polish, Romanian, Italian, Ruthenian) ------------- What is history but a fable agreed upon? Napoleon Bonaparte Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi 
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 04:27
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In Sweden there are two main languages: - Swedish - Sami Others are spoken too by immigrants. Some are Finnish, Kurdish, Arabic, Turkish, Spanish, Greek and Serbo-Croatian. The dialects are different in every region. I speak Oskotska, a dialect spoken in the state of Ostergotaland. -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 07:54
Sami is hardly a main language. It's an official language, but has very few speakers.
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 16:57
You are right. It was a typo. Official is correct. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 05:06
| I guessed that, just clarifying to the others. :) |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 09:56
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Sweden:
Official language:
Swedish
Languages with special status:
Finnish, Meänkieli (the special Finnish language spoken in the Torne river valley), Sami, Romani, Chib and Yiddish.
The three first are recognised as being geographically tied to Sweden and have stronger protection than the three latter, with no specific geographical ties to Sweden.
Then there's things like Älvdalska, which can be classified as a "dialect" but is more like very oldfashined Scandinavian.
The dialect of the island of Gotland is linguistically different enough from standard Swedish that it could warrant being labeled a separate language.
And my girl-friend is from Piteå way up north and had to learn Swedish to go to school. At home she was speaking the local dialect, of which I literally do not understand one word, and it's still a Swedish dialect. ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 10:04
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Are we talking about contries with more than one official language, or about what languages were/are spoken in various contries? All European contries contain lingustic minorities. The official language is usually just the biggest one, and historically it was decided to make it the exclusive administratibe language at about the same time in the 16th c.
Henry VIII made sure English was to be used in the administration of his realm. Too bad for the Welsh, especially as they saw the Tudors as "theirs" ("Tudor" was originally the Welsh "Tewdwr").
The same thing happened when French became the exclusive administrative language of France at about the same time.
In 16th c. France was spoken AT LEAST French, Basque, Catalan, Occitan, Gascon, Lorrainian (German dialect), Italian and Breton. Most of them still are, more or less.
The situation was pretty similar in most other countries at the time. ------------- One must not insult the future. |