Print Page | Close Window

Who were the Goths?

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12416
Printed Date: 17-Apr-2024 at 07:33
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Who were the Goths?
Posted By: Lunwlf
Subject: Who were the Goths?
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2006 at 02:00
I have been interested in who the Goths were ever since I have learned that they were an actual tribe, not just a stupid attention seeking ploy. I am looking for info about them, besides the main info of a tribe of Germanic barbarians who were divide in two groups, Ostro- and Visi-, and the latter sacked Rome, then both groups vanished. I am curious about their langauge, the way they dressed, the way they acted different from other barbarians, their buildings, etc...


-------------
“I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing.”- Socrates



Replies:
Posted By: milns
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 08:56
They were confederation of german tribes comming from Gotland, from there they moved to Sothern coast of Baltic and moved to South. With them probably went some of Baltic tribes (Galindi I think).

-------------
Un beidzot liecas un sašķīst viss kristīgo bars -
Nav pārspējams šodien tiem zemgaļu niknums un kaujas spars!


Posted By: The Canadian Guy
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:54

The only source for early Gothic history is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes - Jordanes ' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getica - Getica (published 551), a condensation of the lost twelve-volume history of the Goths written in Italy by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassiodorus - Cassiodorus around 530. Jordanes may not even have had the work at hand to consult from, and this early information should be treated with caution. Cassiodorus was well placed to write of Goths, for he was an essential minister of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodoric_the_Great - Theodoric the Great , who apparently had heard some of the Gothic songs that told of their traditional origins. Another source is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius - Procopius ' de bello gothico, describing the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_%28535%E2%80%93552%29 - Gothic War of AD 535-552 .

The Goths possibly originated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia - Scandinavia (more particularly, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotland or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland - Götaland ; Jordanes' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza - Scandza ). They would have become separated from related tribes, the Gutar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotlander - Gotlanders ) and the Götar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats - Geats ), which are sometimes included in the term Goths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-0 - [1] in about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_century_BC - 1st century BC (but the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutasaga - Gutasaga leaves open the possibility of prolongued contact). They migrated south-east along the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula - Vistula during the 1st century (Jordanes' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothiscandza - Gothiscandza ; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture - Wielbark culture ), settling in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia - Scythia , which they called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oium - Oium "waterlands", from the 2nd century (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture - Chernyakhov culture ). According to legendary accounts, the capital of this kingdom was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rheimar - Arheim , at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniepr - Dniepr .

Though many of the fighting nomads who followed them were to prove more bloody, the Goths were feared because the captives they took in battle were sacrificed to their god of war, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyz - Tyz , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-1 - [2] and the captured arms hung in trees as a token-offering. Their kings and priests came from a separate aristocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-2 - [3] and their mythic kings of ancient times were honored as gods. Their mythic lawgiver, named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceneus - Deceneus , traditionally dated about the 1st century BC, ordered their laws, which they possessed by the 6th century in written form and called belagines.

In the 3rd century, the Goths split into two groups, the Tervingi or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visigoths - Visigoths ("West Goths"), and the Greuthungi or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths - Ostrogoths ("East Goths"). The Visigoths launched one of the first major " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian - barbarian " invasions of the Roman Empire from 263, sacking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium - Byzantium in 267. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-3 - [4] A year later, they suffered a devastating defeat at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Naissus - Battle of Naissus and were driven back across the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_River - Danube River by 271. This group then settled north of the Danube and established an independent kingdom centered on the abandoned Roman province of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia - Dacia .

Both the Ostrogoths and Visigoths became heavily Romanized during the 4th century by the influence of trade with the Byzantines, and by their membership in a military covenant centered in Byzantium to assist each other militarily. They converted to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism - Arianism during this time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun - Hun domination of the Ostrogoth kingdom began in the 370s, and under pressure of the Huns, Visigothic king http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritigern - Fritigern in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/376 - 376 asked http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valens - Valens to be allowed to settle with his people on the south bank of the Danube. Valens permitted this, and even helped the Goths cross the river, probably at the fortress of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durostorum - Durostorum , but following a famine the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_War_%28377%E2%80%93382%29 - Gothic War (377–382) erupted, and Valens was killed at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople - Battle of Adrianople .

The Visigoths under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaric_I - Alaric I sacked Rome in 410. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorius - Honorius granted the Visigoths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquitania - Aquitania , where they defeated the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals - Vandals and by 475 ruled most of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_peninsula - Iberian peninsula .

The Ostrogoths in the meantime freed themselves of government of the Huns following the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nedao - Battle of Nedao in 454. At the behest of emperor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno_%28emperor%29 - Zeno , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoderic_the_Great - Theoderic the Great from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/488 - 488 conquered all of Italy. The Goths were briefly reunited under one crown in the early sixth century under Theodoric the Great, who became regent of the Visigothic kingdom following the death of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaric_II - Alaric II at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vouill%C3%A9 - Battle of Vouillé in 507. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius - Procopius , writing at this time, interpreted the name Visigoth to mean "western Goths", and the name Ostrogoth as "eastern Goth" which corresponded to the current distribution of the Gothic realms.

The Ostrogothic kingdom persisted until http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/553 - 553 under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teia - Teia , when Italy briefly fell back under Byzantine control, until the conquest of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langobards - Langobards in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/572 - 572 . The Visigothic kingdom lasted longer, until http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/711 - 711 under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderic - Roderic , when it had to yield to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad - Umayyad invasion of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia - Andalusia .

 

Origins

Explaining the origins of the Goths, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes - Jordanes recounted:

The same mighty sea has also in its arctic region, that is in the north, a great island named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza - Scandza , from which my tale (by God's grace) shall take its beginning. For the race whose origin you ask to know burst forth like a swarm of bees from the midst of this island and came into the land of Europe. [...] Now from this island of Scandza, as from a hive of races or a womb of nations, the Goths are said to have come forth long ago under their king, Berig by name. As soon as they disembarked from their ships and set foot on the land, they straightway gave their name to the place. And even to-day it is said to be called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothiscandza - Gothiscandza . Soon they moved from here to the abodes of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians - Ulmerugi , who then dwelt on the shores of Ocean, where they pitched camp, joined battle with them and drove them from their homes.

In the 1st century, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus - Tacitus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-4 - [5] located the Gothones south of the Mare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi - Suebicum (Suevicum) or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea - Baltic Sea :

Beyond the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lygians - Lygians dwell the Gothones, under the rule of a king; and thence held in subjection somewhat stricter than the other German[ic] nations, yet not so strict as to extinguish all their liberty. Immediately adjoining are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugians - Rugians and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemovians - Lemovians upon the coast of the ocean, and of these several nations the characteristics are a round shield, a short sword and kingly government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder - Pliny the Elder calls them the Gutones. According to him, they were a major Germanic people, being one of five. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-5 - [6] He also states http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-6 - [7] that the explorer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas - Pytheas of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massilia - Massilia (4th century BC) encountered them in his northern expedition to an "estuary" we know to have been the Baltic from Pliny's reference to amber washed up on the beaches. A date earlier than the 1st century is thus supported. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo - Strabo also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-7 - [8] mentions that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbod - Marbod , after a pleasant sojourn with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus - Augustus , took command of nearly all the tribes in Germania, including the Boutones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-8 - [9] which are generally interpreted as an error for Goutones, Latinized to Gutones. For the Scandinavian Goths, we have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy - Ptolemy , who mentions the Goutai as living in the south of the island of Skandia.

Due to the central role that the Goths have played in history, their origins have been discussed for a long time. Although no alternative theory has been proposed for the appearance of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_tribes - Germanic tribes in today's northern Poland, some historians have expressed doubts that the Goths originated in Scandinavia. This is due to the fact that, disregarding Jordanes, the earliest unambiguous literary evidence for the Goths ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus - Tacitus and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder - Pliny the Elder ) puts them at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula - Vistula in 1st century. Some claim that there is no evidence for a migration at the time of Christ´s birth, and therefore claim that the origin in Scandinavia has to be taken as a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inventio#Topoi - topos . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-9 - [10]

On the other hand, the German scholar Wenskus has pointed out that if Jordanes had wanted to invent a fictive past for the Goths, he would have claimed that they were descended from a prestigious location such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy - Troy or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome - Rome . He would not have placed their origins in the barbaric North. Moreover, he was writing for fellow Goths who were familiar with their traditions. Besides Jordanes' account, there is both linguistic and archaeological support for the Scandinavian origin.

 

Archaeology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chernyakhov.PNG">The green area is the traditional extent of Götaland and the dark pink area is the island of Gotland. The red area is the extent of the Wielbark Culture in the early 3rd century, and the orange area is the Chernyakhov Culture, in the early 4th century. The dark blue area is the Roman Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Chernyakhov.PNG">Enlarge
The green area is the traditional extent of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6taland - Götaland and the dark pink area is the island of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotland . The red area is the extent of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture - Wielbark culture in the early 3rd century, and the orange area is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture - Chernyakhov culture , in the early 4th century. The dark blue area is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire - Roman Empire

In today's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland - Poland , the earliest material culture identified with the Goths is the Willenberg/Prussia , now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_culture - Wielbark culture , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-10 - [11] which replaced the local Oxhoeft/Prussia , now http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oksywie_culture - Oksywie culture in the 1st century. However, as early as the late http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age - Nordic Bronze Age and early http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Roman_Iron_Age - Pre-Roman Iron Age (ca 1300 BC–ca 300 BC), this area had influences from southern Scandinavia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-11 - [12] In fact, the Scandinavian influence on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania - Pomerania and today's northern Poland from ca 1300 BC (period III) and onwards was so considerable that this region is sometimes included in the Nordic Bronze Age culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-12 - [13]

During the period ca 600 BC–ca 300 BC the warm and dry climate of southern Scandinavia (2-3 degrees warmer than today) deteriorated considerably, which not only dramatically changed the flora, but forced people to change their way of living and to leave settlements.

The Goths are believed to have crossed the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea - Baltic Sea sometime between the end of this period, ca 300 BC, and 100, and in the traditional province of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothia - Ostrogothia , in Sweden, archaeological evidence shows that there was a general depopulation during this period. The settlement in today's Poland probably corresponds to the introduction of Scandinavian burial traditions, such as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Circle_%28Iron_Age%29 - stone circles and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menhir_%28Iron_Age%29 - stelae , which indicates that the early Goths preferred to bury their dead according to Scandinavian traditions. The Polish archaeologist Tomasz Skorupka states that a migration from Scandinavia is regarded as a matter of certainty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stonecircle.JPG">The stone circle was one of the Scandinavian burial traditions used by the Goths in Pomerania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Stonecircle.JPG">Enlarge
The stone circle was one of the Scandinavian burial traditions used by the Goths in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania - Pomerania
Despite many controversial hypotheses regarding the location of Scandia (for example, in the island of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotlandia and the provinces of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westrogothia - Västergotland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogothia - Östergotland ), the fact that the Goths arrived on today's Polish land from the North after crossing the Baltic Sea by boats is certain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-13 - [14]

However, the Gothic culture also appears to have had continuity from earlier cultures in the area, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-14 - [15] suggesting that the immigrants mixed with earlier populations, perhaps providing their separate aristocracy. The Oxford scholar Heather suggests that it was a relatively small migration from Scandinavia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-15 - [16] This scenario would make their migration across the Baltic similar to many other population movements in history, such as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons#The_.22Anglo-Saxon_invasion.22_and_genetic_history - Anglo-Saxon Invasion , where migrants have imposed their own culture and language on an indigenous one. The Willenberg/Wielbark culture shifted south-eastwards towards the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea - Black Sea area from the mid-2nd century. It was the oldest part of the Wielbark culture, located west of the Vistula and which had Scandinavian burial traditions, that pulled up its stakes and moved. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-16 - [17] In the Ukraine, they imposed themselves as the rulers of the local, probably Slavic, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture - Zarubintsy culture forming the new http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernyakhov_culture - Chernyakhov culture (ca 200–ca 400).

There is archaeological and historical evidence of continued contacts between the Goths and the Scandinavians during their migrations.

 

Linguistics

According to at least one theory, there are closer linguistic connections between http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language - Gothic and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse - Old Norse than between Gothic and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germanic_languages - West Germanic languages (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germanic_languages - East Germanic languages and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language - Gothic ). Moreover, there were two tribes that probably are closely related to the Goths and remained in Scandinavia, the Gotlanders and the Geats, and these tribes were considered to be Goths by Jordanes (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandza - Scandza ).

The names Geats, Goths and Gutar (Gotlanders) are three versions of the same tribal name. Geat was originally http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic - Proto-Germanic *Gautoz (plural *Gautaz) and Goths and Gutar were *Gutaniz. *Gautoz and *Gutaniz are two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablaut - ablaut grades of a Proto-Germanic word (*geutan) with the meaning "to pour" (modern Swedish gjuta, modern German giessen, Gothic giutan) designating the tribes as "pourers of semen", i.e. "men, people". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-17 - [18] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gapt - Gapt , the earliest Gothic hero, recorded by Jordanes, is generally regarded as a corruption of Gaut.

A second but perhaps less strong theory connects the people with the name of the river flowing through their homeland, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6ta_%C3%A4lv - Göta älv , which drains Lake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4nern - Vänern into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kattegat - Kattegat . In prehistoric times it had a stronger flow than now. The "man" interpretation, however, fits a general Indo-european naming analogy; e.g., Dutch, Deutsch, man, human, etc., and was preferred by Jordanes, who viewed the Goths as pouring forth from Scandinavia. The Wolfram source below also contains a discussion.

The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-european - Indo-european root of the pour derivation would be http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE165.html - *gheu-d- as it is listed in the American Heritage Dictionary (AHD). *gheud-is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum - centum form. The AHD relies on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Pokorny - Julius Pokorny for the same root (p. 447).

At some time in prehistory, consonant changes according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_Law - Grimm's Law created a *g from the *gh and a *t from the *d. This same law more or less rules out http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE155.html - *ghedh- , root of English good in the sense of goodman, as has been suggested by some. The *dh in that case would become a *d instead of a *t. When and where the ancestors of the Goths assigned this name to themselves and whether they used it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-european - Indo-european or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic - Proto-Germanic times remain unsolved questions of historical linguistics and prehistoric archaeology.

According the rules of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_ablaut - Indo-European ablaut , the full grade, *gheud-, might be replaced with the zero-grade, *ghud-, or the o-grade, *ghoud-, accounting for the various forms of the name. The use of all three grades suggests that the name derives from an Indo-european stage; otherwise, it would be from a line descending from one grade.

A compound name, Gut-þiuda, the "Gothic people", appears in the Gothic Calendar (aikklesjons fullaizos ana gutþiudai gabrannidai). Besides the Goths, this way of naming a tribe is only found in Sweden. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#_note-18 - [19]

Etymologically, the name of the Goths identical to that of the Gutar, the inhabitants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotland , an island in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea - Baltic Sea . The number of similarities that existed between the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language - Gothic language and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Gutnish - Old Gutnish , made the prominent linguist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Wess%C3%A9n - Elias Wessén consider Old Gutnish to be a form of Gothic. The most famous example is that both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutnish_language - Gutnish and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language - Gothic used the word lamb for both young and adult sheep. Still, some claim that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutnish_language - Gutnish is not closer to Gothic than any other Germanic dialect.

The fact is that virtually all of those phonetic and grammatical features that characterize the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Germanic_languages - North Germanic languages as a separate branch of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages - Germanic language family (not to mention the features that distinguish various http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_language - Norse dialects) seem to have evolved at a later stage than the one preserved in Gothic. Gothic in turn, while being an extremely archaic form of Germanic in most respects, has nevertheless developed a certain number of unique features that it shares with no other Germanic language (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_language - Gothic language ).

However, this does not exclude the possibility of the Goths, the Gotlanders and the Geats being related as tribes. Similarly, the Saxon dialects of Germany are hardly closer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon - Anglo-Saxon than any other West Germanic language that hasn't undergone the High German consonant shift (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_Law - Grimm's Law ), but the tribes themselves are definitely identical. The Jutes (Dan. jyder) of Jutland (Dan. Jylland, in Western Danmark) are at least etymologically identical to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jutes - Jutes that came from that region and invaded Britain together with the Angles and the Saxons in the 5th century AD. Nevertheless, there are no remaining written sources to associate the Jutes of Jutlandia with anything but North Germanic dialects, or the Jutes of Britain with anything but West Germanic dialects. Thus, language is not always the best criterion for tribal or ethnic tradition and continuity.

The Gotlanders (Gutar) themselves had oral traditions of a mass migration towards southern Europe, written down in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutasaga - Gutasaga . If the facts are related, that would be a unique case of a tradition that survived in more than a thousand years and that actually pre-dates most of the major splits in the Germanic language family.

This was from Wikipedia.

-------------
Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.


Posted By: Lunwlf
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 00:50
Thanks Canadian Guy

-------------
“I know that I am intelligent, because I know that I know nothing.”- Socrates


Posted By: The Canadian Guy
Date Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 09:18
Your Welcome Wink

-------------
Hate and anger is the fuel of war, while religion and politics is the foundation of it.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 06:00
According to Jordanes, the goths were the ancient dacians, and Gothia was Dacia:
 
 
Thereupon the Goths made war and conquered the Romans, cut off the head of Oppius Sabinus, and invaded and boldly plundered many castles and cities belonging to the Emperor. (77) In this plight of his countrymen Domitian hastened with all his might to Illyricum, bringing with him the troops of almost the entire empire. He sent Fuscus before him as his general with picked soldiers. Then joining boats together like a bridge, he made his soldiers cross the river Danube above the army of Dorpaneus. (78) But the Goths were on the alert. They took up arms and presently overwhelmed the Romans in the first encounter. They slew Fuscus, the commander, and plundered the soldiers' camp of its treasure. And because of the great victory they had won in this region, they thereafter called their leaders, by whose good fortune they seemed to have conquered, not mere men, but demigods, that is Ansis. Their genealogy I shall run through briefly, telling the lineage of each and the beginning and the end of this line. And do thou, O reader, hear me without repining; for I speak truly.
 
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#united - http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#united


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 06:52
Jordanes was very likely mistaken/inventing.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:09
Originally posted by Imperialist

According to Jordanes, the goths were the ancient dacians, and Gothia was Dacia:
 
 
Thereupon the Goths made war and conquered the Romans, cut off the head of Oppius Sabinus, and invaded and boldly plundered many castles and cities belonging to the Emperor. (77) In this plight of his countrymen Domitian hastened with all his might to Illyricum, bringing with him the troops of almost the entire empire. He sent Fuscus before him as his general with picked soldiers. Then joining boats together like a bridge, he made his soldiers cross the river Danube above the army of Dorpaneus. (78) But the Goths were on the alert. They took up arms and presently overwhelmed the Romans in the first encounter. They slew Fuscus, the commander, and plundered the soldiers' camp of its treasure. And because of the great victory they had won in this region, they thereafter called their leaders, by whose good fortune they seemed to have conquered, not mere men, but demigods, that is Ansis. Their genealogy I shall run through briefly, telling the lineage of each and the beginning and the end of this line. And do thou, O reader, hear me without repining; for I speak truly.
 
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#united - http://www.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#united
 
If you use this quote as alleged proof for the Goths being Dacians, then I'm afraid you have to read it more carefully. All it says that the Goths lived in Dacia, which is not disputed at all. As one ( or two)  of the wandering Eastern-Germanic tribes they lived temporarily in many a region in Europe's East, but it doesn't make them automatically indigenous people of those.
The exact ethnic composition of the Goths is somewhat unknown and disputed, but in general it is agreed that they were in core Eastern Germanics who amalgamated non-Germanic people and cultures into their own during their walk-about.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:23
If you read carefully the quote and some other ones from that page you will see how Jordanes attributes the kings and deeds of the dacians to the goths, equating them. In the quote I wrote here Jordanes says the goths killed Fuscus when they were at war with Domitian. Everybody knows the dacians did that. So according to Jordanes goths in Gothia = dacians in Dacia. It's rather clear.


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 07:24
Komnenos, Jordanes claims Goths to be Getae, check Getica IX 58: "quos Getas [...] Gothos esse probavimus" (we proved Getae are Goths). The continuity is created through an original (but erroneous) interpretation of earlier authors.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 10:57
Originally posted by Imperialist

If you read carefully the quote and some other ones from that page you will see how Jordanes attributes the kings and deeds of the dacians to the goths, equating them. In the quote I wrote here Jordanes says the goths killed Fuscus when they were at war with Domitian. Everybody knows the dacians did that. So according to Jordanes goths in Gothia = dacians in Dacia. It's rather clear.
 
 
Sorry, I rather misunderstood what you were trying to say. But I'm glad that you obviously agree with me that the good Jordanes got a bit confused, who can blame him amongst all that turmoil, and mixed the Dacians and Goths up.
Good that's sorted then.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 11:35
I wonder if the Goths haven't any connection with the Gutians or Guti who conquered the Akkadian Empire.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 11:58
Originally posted by Leonardo

I wonder if the Goths haven't any connection with the Gutians or Guti who conquered the Akkadian Empire.
 
No.


Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 12:10
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Leonardo

I wonder if the Goths haven't any connection with the Gutians or Guti who conquered the Akkadian Empire.
 
No.
 
Why not?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 14:07
But I'm glad that you obviously agree with me that the good Jordanes got a bit confused, who can blame him amongst all that turmoil, and mixed the Dacians and Goths up.
Good that's sorted then.
 
I dont think he mixes them up by mistake (got confused). I mean he is clear in his statements and he means to say the goths were the inhabitants of ancient Dacia. And the dacians were goths, which way you want to put it. If he is wrong, that is another issue, but he doesnt mix them up in error or confusion. What could have made him believe the ancient dacians were goths/of gothic stock?  And could that be true?
 
take care 


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 14:54
What could have made him believe the ancient dacians were goths/of gothic stock?


The same reason Romans were claiming they are Trojans, Macedonians they are Greeks, Hungarians they are Huns etc. They wished to think they have a noble origin.



And could that be true?

No. The Dacian language, known from some words is surely not Germanic. And the Goths are clear identified archaeologicaly in the Chernyachov culture.

-------------
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 17:42
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Leonardo

I wonder if the Goths haven't any connection with the Gutians or Guti who conquered the Akkadian Empire.
 
No.
 
Why not?
 
Why should they, other than that the names sound vaguely similar?
There was an American Indian tribe called "Guato" living somewhere around the Amazon, any connections with the Goths, Guti, Getae....?


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 18:08
Originally posted by Imperialist

But I'm glad that you obviously agree with me that the good Jordanes got a bit confused, who can blame him amongst all that turmoil, and mixed the Dacians and Goths up.
Good that's sorted then.
 
I dont think he mixes them up by mistake (got confused). I mean he is clear in his statements and he means to say the goths were the inhabitants of ancient Dacia. And the dacians were goths, which way you want to put it. If he is wrong, that is another issue, but he doesnt mix them up in error or confusion. What could have made him believe the ancient dacians were goths/of gothic stock?  And could that be true?
 
take care 
 
I don't really know what the problem is.
Jordanes is the main source for the assumption that the Goth originated from southern Scandinavia, something they themselves claimed as well, although it is kind of disputed and we probably can only identify a distinct Gothic people when they were settling in what is today North-Western Poland.
They pobably arrived sometime in the early 3rd century in the region that was then called Dacia, and thus became its inhabitants.
Any synonymous usage of the terms "Goths" and "Dacians" simply originates from here.
I don't think there is any dispute that the indigenous population, namely the Dacians, had been living in the area for some time when the Goths arrived, but had no previous ethnic or linguistic connection, other than both languages being IE, with the new arrivals.


Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 03:16
They pobably arrived sometime in the early 3rd century in the region that was then called Dacia, and thus became its inhabitants.



The Chernyachov culture appears in the second half of 3rd century. In 3rd century the majoritary population of East Romania (Moldavia) was Carpian (Dacian).






-------------
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3992/10ms4.jpg">



Posted By: Leonardo
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 09:03
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Leonardo

I wonder if the Goths haven't any connection with the Gutians or Guti who conquered the Akkadian Empire.
 
No.
 
Why not?
 
Why should they, other than that the names sound vaguely similar?
There was an American Indian tribe called "Guato" living somewhere around the Amazon, any connections with the Goths, Guti, Getae....?
 
 
Please, don't believe that I take for granted that the Guti were somehow connected to the Goths. Not at all. I've only asked an opinion about the possibility of an at least loose connection between them. Why? Because, maybe I'm wrong, the Guti were recorded as fair haired and speaking an indoeuropean language ...
 
 


Posted By: Heraclius
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 11:02
 Mixing tribes up is understandable, if you look and research the sources of the 3rd century it's near impossible to tell what tribe invaded what part of the empire and when. One source can say for example the Jutes invaded Raetia in 258 whereas another will say the Vandals and Sarmatians actually invaded it and yet another that it was the Macromanni and yet another will dispute the year and say it was infact 259 and that all the said tribes infact invaded together. It's all hopelessly confused.
 
 It's hardly suprising that names sometimes got mixed up, identities became warped are sometimes combined with others, sometimes because it was perhaps easier, sometimes through lack of knowledge or plain old confusion.


-------------
A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.


Posted By: Komnenos
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 10:08
Originally posted by Leonardo

  
 
Please, don't believe that I take for granted that the Guti were somehow connected to the Goths. Not at all. I've only asked an opinion about the possibility of an at least loose connection between them. Why? Because, maybe I'm wrong, the Guti were recorded as fair haired and speaking an indoeuropean language ...
 
 
Sorry, I was a bit harsh, but I've seen so  many absurd theories on AE, about cultural and ethnic connections based on nothing more than an accidental consonance of words from unrelated languages, that I see red everytime someone comes across with a new one.
To believe that an ancient Mesopotamian people appearing in the 2/3 Millenium BCE have any relations with a Germanic speaking tribe ( or tribal federation) appearing in history 2000/3000 years later in a completely different corner of the globe other than sharing a certain combination of consonants interspersed with a changing variety of vowels, certainly gets my blood pressure up a bit.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 17:30
Proinde nisi prudens lector animadvertit Gothos et Gethas eundem esse populum, ipsosque a devictis Getibus quandoque Scythas quandoque Cimerios, vel Thraces nuncupatos, numquam Gothicas vel Scythicas historias intelleget.
Johannes Magnus Tongue


-------------
.


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 02:19
Anton, that's a 16th century testimony. What's its relevance for a history he didn't lived, for populations long faded away? Because Johannes Magnus' dilemma (as well as Jordanes') were solved by modern historiographies, don't you think?


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 05:14
More or less I agree with you, Chilbudios. The only thing I would like to mention is that in my field sometimes alternative theories becomes dominating, so one should always keep in mind possible current wrong explanation of existing data. Which means that one should always respect those alternatives if they are based on a real data. Jordanes is not the only one who mixed Goths and Getae. Many people think that Codex Argenteus is a proof of the fact that Goths were germanic tribes whereas it is the opposite -- the fact that this Bible is written in a form of German language gives a reason to suppose that it was written by Ulfilla. As far as I know Smile 

-------------
.


Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 05:54
Johannes Magnus also "proved" the Swedish kings are descendants of Magog. The guy had a mission, and you can't trust him on, basicly, anything.



King Yngve's great-granddad, according to Johannes Magnus.

Many people think that Codex Argenteus is a proof of the fact that Goths were germanic tribes whereas it is the opposite -- the fact that this Bible is written in a form of German language gives a reason to suppose that it was written by Ulfilla. As far as I know Smile

Eh? What do you suggest?


Posted By: Chilbudios
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:09
For an alternative theory to have at least a chance to be taken seriously, it must provide evidences, arguments. I always keep in mind the possibility to be wrong, but I want arguments before investigating a hypothesis. After all, maybe Goths were aliens from Mars? Why shouldn't we waste time and money to investigate that?
 
Jordanes was the first one to give Goths a Getic origin and today it is known why. It is an answer to Procopius and it is one of the many attempts to give ancient and glorious history to various populations or estabilishments (Goths from Getae, Franks from Trojans), it is one of the many superpositions based on a primitive etymologization (like Goths - Getae, Hungarians - Huns, Danes - Dacians).
 
Many people think that Codex Argenteus is a proof of the fact that Goths were germanic tribes whereas it is the opposite -- the fact that this Bible is written in a form of German language gives a reason to suppose that it was written by Ulfilla.Many people think that Codex Argenteus is a proof of the fact that Goths were germanic tribes whereas it is the opposite -- the fact that this Bible is written in a form of German language gives a reason to suppose that it was written by Ulfilla.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. When you say "the opposite" you mean CA proves Goths weren't Germanic??
The evidences for the language of the Goths do not come only from CA, but from their names, from the scraps of their words caught in Latin.
 


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 06:32
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I don't understand what you're trying to say. When you say "the opposite" you mean CA proves Goths weren't Germanic??
The evidences for the language of the Goths do not come only from CA, but from their names, from the scraps of their words caught in Latin.
 
By "proves the opposite" I ment that the fact that Goths are German proves to some extent that CA is Gothic.


-------------
.


Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 17:51
Can somebody point me to the review of available data about Goths in context of proof that they were Germanic tribes?
Thank you in advance.


-------------
.


Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 22:54
Anton,
 
Taken that any written source from the middle ages can be doubted - there are no waterproof proofs about the origin of the Goths - and their relation to the Germans.
 
Still it is likely that the Goths belonged to the Causcasian fishing/gathering culture of western Europe, while the German were part of the agricultural tribes. 
 
Though, they both came out of ice-time at about the same time, indicating a common etnic origin - and thus two closely related languages. 


-------------
Be good or be gone.


Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 21:19
Can somebody point me to the review of available data about Goths in context of proof that they were Germanic tribes?
Thank you in advance.


On this issue the ambiguity of sources, and often lack-there-of, and the sparse remains that exist means that there is no conclusive evidence.

But it is generally agreed upon that Goths spoke a Germanic language. I believe we also have some remains of Ulfila's Gothic Bible which can attest to this.

-------------



Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com