The Downfall of Western Societies ?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Philosophy and Theology
Forum Discription: Topics relating to philosophy
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12160
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 09:00
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Topic: The Downfall of Western Societies ?
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Subject: The Downfall of Western Societies ?
Date Posted: 24-May-2006 at 09:20
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The downfall of the western societies, concomitant by the economic success of the stock corporations. A discussion about the collapse of modern societies and its origin is held currently in many western European countries. Riots of Arabian migrants in France , violent students in Germany, break apart of the traditional families, the care of elder and disabled people ,all this are questions ,which affect the public discussion. Especially in Values which applied one generation ago are today unknown or no one might remember to them. Kids are growing up without learning to respect each other, egoism is on the agenda. The thresholds for violence are going down rapidly. Schools with overstrained teachers are only a place of keeping and a training camp for new practices of bodily harm and heavy insults. The society is looking to this speechless, shocked but with no any idea of an answer. Meanwhile managers are trained in being successful, effective and undeviating. Experts of the world of economy are explaining that the globalisation costs it price. And this price has to be paid by the inflexible one. The human being as a disturbing, expanse factor? Services with no server? An Upper-class that needs the middle - and under-class as its doormat? A third world that doesn’t exist anymore in the minds of the politicians ? And if it exists, then as a market that must be squeezed out. As you might realise , many words for a fast –taverne poster , but a theme that is close to my heart . and I hope komnenos isn’t to draconic with my English. ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 27-May-2006 at 17:56
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The only threat to the West is that it is going to be overrun by Asia,
in physical numbers(population) and also in economic influence and
power. The West is holding its old-time power and glory while Asia is
rapidly gaining more and more power and glory. I wouldn't mind an Asian dominated world in some way, they have always been the smartest of us all. ------------- There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge... |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:25
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one might say that the western society is decaying because its "too free", parents and governments have lost the hold over the young, and these young people have to grow up and lead the western scoiety. I doubt however that Asia will get the upper hand anytime soon, mainly because the East can not survive without the money and the market of the west, the first to crash being China...too many goods no one to buy, anyway thats my ominous version of the future  ------------- |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:30
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I do not believe in the "downfall" of Western societies.
Politically, economically, and culturally speaking, we are seeing the emergence of a more diverse world with different regional centres of importance that are interconnected with one another.
Socially-speaking, a lot of the so-called "ills" in "Western societies" that Ulrich mentions are the inevitable consequences of affluence, demographic changes, and increasing globalization. They are not unique to Western countries; the only thing is that Western countries may be experiencing them before others because of the higher and more mature level of economic and political development. (I know I am talking like a typical "modernization theorist" whose ideas I do not necessarily embrace - but that's a topic for another thread ...)
Just take the so-called "breakdown" of "traditional" families as an example. First of all, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing because as society progresses, the definition of what constitutes a family also changes. Second, the changing nature of the family that one has been witnessing in the "West" is also increasing seen in other parts of the world, especially in countries that are beginning to catch up with the West when it comes to economic development.
Take the concept of "filial piety" that so many Eastern cultures are famous for as an example. Over and over again, I've heard many people from affluent Asian countries telling me that they are seeing fewer and fewer people from the younger generation embracing such a tradition. As a matter of fact, compared to many Southern European cultures where the family still plays an extremely important role throughout an individual's entire life, modern East Asian cultures may have become even more individualistic and self-centered.
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Posted By: Winterhaze13
Date Posted: 27-May-2006 at 19:38
How the hell can you prove that? Human beings are the same everywhere. Europeans have their Renaissance, democracy and enlightenment. Arabic technology in the middle ages was second to none, now they are far behind. The levels of sophisication changes over the centuries, it means absolutely nothing. So, stop making such rediculous claims. ------------- Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes. -- Voltaire French author, humanist, rationalist, & satirist (1694 - 1778) |
Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 28-May-2006 at 12:52
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To every thing must come an end but where somthing ends something news will come and so on and so on. these things I believe are happening in turns. Europe for the past 500 years (could be more) before that It was the mediterranean area, the silk route and know it's going to be east asia. And after that who know mabey Afrika?
This is my humble opinion  ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 29-May-2006 at 16:38
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Knowledge and technology - and capital - spread too fast for any geographical area to stay dominant for long in the future.
Globalisation is inevitable. The trick is to make it equitable.
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Posted By: Kalevipoeg
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 13:40
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"How the hell can you prove that? Human beings are the same
everywhere. Europeans have their Renaissance, democracy and
enlightenment. Arabic technology in the middle ages was second to none,
now they are far behind. The levels of sophisication changes over the
centuries, it means absolutely nothing. So, stop making such rediculous
claims."
My personal opinion. Yes, people are all the same, and they also are not. Yes, it was ridiculous to a large extent. ------------- There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge... |
Posted By: steven
Date Posted: 31-May-2006 at 14:51
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I think that at this juncture in history Western Society is entering the end of history itself, the posthistoric world where liberal democracy has turnt us into, for better or worse, men without chests. |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 00:26
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The West is aproaching it's Universal State phase, which means it has around 4 or 5 centuries left. ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 00:27
Francis Fukuyama si full of sh*t! ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 07:32
You mean before the Fimbulwinter? Global chilling?
I guess Odin should know. And be worried.  ------------- |
Posted By: Dampier
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 18:28
Is that Fenris I see?  ------------- 
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 05:32
It may well be, but what would be the alternative. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Jun-2006 at 09:17
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I think that civilizations (if the whole west can be termed as a that in the first place) approah a time whereby they must either reinvent themselves or die. I don't think what has been dubbed very losely as the "West" has reached that stage yet.
But the reletive lethargicness of the West in general especially compared to the East Asian Nations is nothing new, there comes a time when a new area of the world is full of energy and excited about the present and the future, while another having exprienced such a phase a few centuries ago becomes more and more used to a sedentry lifestyle (as illustrated by many of the ills listed above)
In 1500 it was the "West" which was energetic and the Orient (as exemplified by the islamic and Sino worlds) was becoming lethargic. We know it as the Renessaice. Its possible that future historians will call this a Renessaice as well.
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Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 20:43
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I'm talking about Arnold J. Toynbee's cyclocal theory of history. I read his whole great work, A Study of History, this spring. ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Ildico
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 23:16
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Throughout history there are times when one or more nations are so powerful that they are more in danger and eventually cause their own downfall. It doesn't seem like it's going to change anytime soon because the great saying goes: "History repeats itself."
In our times, it all just depends on who has the most powerful bombs and who those nations think is the most powerful to try to take over. Whether their plan backfires or not determines the fate of others, leading to wars which has repeated since the dawn of time. I personally think that the first nation that someone will try to take over is the US, it's just a matter of time before yet another civilization falls. However nessessary it is for other nations to expand, I hope that no more wars come from wanting power. Of course, it is only a hope because as long as humans walk, they will want power, and there will be war, desease, death and downfall. ------------- Beauty is in the eye of that guy behind the spontaneous diversions, set aside for a good explorer, telling a story about the world. |
Posted By: raygun
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 00:34
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The main worry is not about Asia or whoever that rise to dominence in world politics and economy, but the depletion of natural resources. We may all be dead from famine & diseases before we even decide who's calling the shot. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2006 at 18:22
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Well today it is known for a fact that the population of humans is reaching saturation levels in this planet. Free trade and the technological explosion of this last century have given us people in the West a pretty good life, materialistically speaking. We advertise our products and life in many different media outlets and the people of the East aspire to be like us because they think we are more "progressed" than them. The question is has modernization and globalization made our life more meaninful by continually destroying the traditional views on life of each nation? I don't think so... ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 01:29
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Actually while some nations are at saturation levals, the planet as a whole is no where near it.
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Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2006 at 11:49
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It all depends on how many acres per person is wasted. If everyone today lived as Americans you would need about three planet earths to support that lifestyle. Generally though scientists believe that around 10 billion people is where the critical population is. We could reach this number with the current growth at around 2030 so yes we are very near it.
------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2006 at 08:48
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qoute-The main worry is not about Asia or whoever that rise to dominence in world politics and economy, but the depletion of natural resources. We may all be dead from famine & diseases before we even decide who's calling the shot.The Downfall of Western Societies .
The US will go on , when the world dries up from gobal warming , the US has the largest supply of fresh water in the world, the great lakes, 100 dollars a barrel?
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Posted By: The Philosopher
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 16:59
| i believe that docyabut might be correct, i mean, with this bird flue a recent threat, it is only possible that a strand of a virus would show up and we would not be able to stop it, or create a vaccine. that would truly be frightening. |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 03-Oct-2006 at 15:32
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Let's make one thing clear though; the rise of certain Asian economies does not necessarily cause a corresponding decline in Western economies, far from it. I believe the West can be just as strong without keeping the rest of the world on a short leash, it's just these years of dominance that has made us into control freaks, which causes us to suffer a neurosis of fear of what might happen when we can no longer influence every development abroad. Who knows, it might even work out for the best. Don't panic over economic fluctuations like those causing unemployment in Germany, these problems have come and gone since the advent of industrialism.
As for some "moral decline", this kind of bologs pours out of intellectuals of every age when they attempt to explain whatever developments they don't appreciate in one fell stroke of far-reaching generalization. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 14:22
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The West has always beein in peryl of decline. It was invaded since the beginning by the barbarians, and once in a while by middle easterns and also berbers. It lost lot of battles. It has suffered terrible dissasters like the Black Death that killed 1/3 of its population.
But the West always fight back.
Today, most of the people on the planet speak a western language (English, Spanish, Portuguese, French..), or write in Latin characters. Most wear Western clothes and use Western technologies. 1/3 are Christians, which is the religion of the West.
I really believe the West is thougher that people usually think. The weakness it always presents to the outsiders (and some insiders) is nothing more than an ilussion.
Pinguin
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 03:23
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Oct-2006 at 00:37
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Actually, what we are living is the end of the West, but also of the East, and of the North-South division, too.
Today Japan has millions of non-Japaneses in its territory, Europe is receiving lots of people from overseas. There are millions of Europeans and Asians in Africa. The Americas are a melting pot of many peoples.
People fly all over the globe. A player scores in the U.S. and people jump to celebrate in China.
Languages are dying, and most people is becoming bilingual English-something.
The literatures are melting. Today, to know classics does not mean to know the Iliad, the Odissey and the Divine Comedy. One also needs to know something about the Tao-Te-King, the Vedas, the Sundiata, Garcia Marquez, and many other things.
History is becomming the record of the past of mankind.
In short, the age of the isolated civilizations is gone.
In that sense the Western Civilization is already death.
Long life to the Global civilization.
Pinguin
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Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 18-Oct-2006 at 08:47
well the global civ you speak of might be just a system of western civ applied unjustly often forcefully on global scale to benefit the west. Trust me, if the people of this planet really can have the global civ they want, it would not be looking like the one you are looking at. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 11:47
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I dissagree. I believe people has to realize the West is not evil nor saint. You can't judge only the negative part of it and forget the possitives. I agree many people suffered with the expansion of the West, however, the legacy of that expansion is alive today throughout the world.
Some of the heritage is:
(1) Pick a map of the world you will notice that most people of Europe, the Americas, Subsaharan Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific speak one Indoeuropean language, particularly: Spanish, Portuguese, French or English. Besides, the lingua franca of the world is English.
(2) The most spread writing system in the world is alphabetic, and in there the most important is the Latin script.
(3) Modern science and engineering was developed by the West. Even today, most of the knowledge come from the West.
(4) Modern arts, including music (both classical and pop), painting (classical and abstract), drawing (traditional, cartoons, anime), architecture (traditional, modern), literature, theatre and movies, are all mainly western based.
(5) Christian religion, in all its forms: Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etc., is the more widespread religion in the planet. And Jesus is more famous than the Beatles.
(6) Military strategies, formations and technology were mainly developed in the West.
(7) Most of the most outstanding achievements of the 20th century, the conquest of the pole, flying, the deepest immersion, the conquest of space and the landing on the moon were done by Westerners, and also the most remarkable achievements in Physics and Mathematics.
Some merits have the west after all, and that's why its influence is feel worldwide, and will be perceived in the centuries to come.
Pinguin
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Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 11:58
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call me Childish, but nothing's forever, i dont think anyone have predicted the downfall of Rome, or Han ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 21:33
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Yes. But the syndrome of the fall of the West is part of Western mentality since its beginning. The west has always beeing falling down, during Greek times, Rome, during the Black Death, WWI and WWII, etc. The West has always being in the edge, close to collapse. However, somehow it has managed to survive.
I believe it will continue to do so. That's just faith.
Pinguin
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 21:45
Yet the beatles infamously said they were more popular.
Leaving all the Arabs, 1.3 billion people in South Asia, 1.6 billion in East Asia, all of Russia and all of South East Asia, not speaking a European language.
Which explains why over half the world doesn't use latin script.
Actually Christianity is middle eastern.
The roman empire being the exampe in case. ------------- |
Posted By: Constantine XI
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2006 at 22:12
But the point made, that virtually the entire New World is linguistically the child of four European languages, hold true. English is the language of commerce, and we live in a capitalist world.
Middle Eastern in origin, though truly modern Christianity has been adapted to Western culture. As early as the split in the Roman Empire, Catholicism moved away from the more mystical, eastern focus of the religion towards a more legalistic focus typical of the West Roman tradition of law and social order.
The institution of a centralised Empire in the West under the command of Italians may have vanished in the 5th century, but truly Rome survived in a number of forms. Byzantium stayed alive for another thousand years and contributed its learning and culture back into the West, Roman theological organisation persists to this day, Roman law persists in all European nations aside from England (and even there it has considerable influence), Roman urbanisation and public works continued after Roman imperial power ended and provided the impetus for further progress in many nations of the former Western Empire. Rome only ever fell as a political entity, she was a mere component of Western civilisation, not its total embodiment. The West continued after Rome, built upon its strengths and came back stronger than ever once it recovered from the barbarian attacks.
Let's wait a couple of thousand years and see what their popularity is like then  .------------- |