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What if Serbia didnt participate in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia?
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Bosniathebestcountry View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Bosniathebestcountry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if Serbia didnt participate in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia?
    Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 20:54
That hanjar division you speak of was first of all organized by an ottoman turk and a german nazi. That hanjar division was not that succesful at all, bosnians dont enjoy murdering serbs. But i know somebody who does and who did.... it was USTASHE. They murdered more serbs than anybody in WWII, they served the nazis pretty much.
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Posts: 1207 		  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2006 at 22:30
Yes, the Ustashe were monsterous animals. They murdered hundreds of thousands of Serbs. Too bad the Western-Media covered it up. Their main objective was to convert  Serbs to the Roman-Catholic religion, and murder them.
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 10:53
The whole matter was much deeper than that.  On instances they killed each other on other occasions they cooperated.  There are pictures documenting meetings between the usatasa and cetnik leadership. 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Bosniathebestcountry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 23:49
Yeah, what about the chetniks?... you serbs always fail to mention them. I understand more serbians were killed in WWII, but thats logical because they were the most numerous too. Chetniks too probably killed many bosnian muslims and croats.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2006 at 15:08
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Serbia was the core state as well as the brain of Yugoslavia.  That kingdom was inconceivable without Serbia, and that is a major reason the kingdom stayed together in the 1920s and 30s.

Had Serbia not been involved, the Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian lands would have come under outside influence (Hungary; Italy).  Montenegro probably would have joined with Serbia anyway, but Italy may have tried to block a Serb outlet to the Adriatic.

I definitely agree.Serbia was the center and the core of the Yugoslavia formed after 1918...

Leaving the fact that Serbia wouldn't be allowed and wouldn't have the capability to make "A Greater Serbia" alone aside, probably that kind of a federation was the best way at that time. Otherwise, I believe, at least Croatia and Slovenia would be devoted too much on Italy and would be somewhat like a puppet, and we could even have seen Dalmatian coast in Italian control today.
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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 02:54

Originally posted by Bosniathebestcountry

Yeah, what about the chetniks?... you serbs always fail to mention them. I understand more serbians were killed in WWII, but thats logical because they were the most numerous too. Chetniks too probably killed many bosnian muslims and croats.

I'm perfectly aware of what chetniks did-btw they killed many serbs(commies) as well.

I understand more serbians were killed in WWII, but thats logical because they were the most numerous too.

It has nothing to do with our numbers:we were victims of a well-organised  genocide.And for your information the number of serbs killed (350.000 at least !)in WWII when compared to no. of serbs in general isn't even remotely proportional to no. of bosniaks and croats killed comp. to their no. in general...Besides, it's the cruelty of those crimes that shocks even more then numbers (it shocked even the nazis).I wrote this before, and I will again if necessary:

"The crimes of the fascist Ustashe against the Serbs in the notorious camp of Jasenovac must be known - crimes that are the worst ones along with those committed against the Jews in the Holocaust."

                             Simon Wiesenthal

So, you can't just rationalise these crimes by saying the serbs were killed in proportion to their numbers... 
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Bosniathebestcountry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 23:37
Ive heard some ustasha Ante Pavlevic who massacred serbs in such grotesque ways that even the nazis were shocked by it.
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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2006 at 23:40
On the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina more Bosniaks were killed than either Serbs or Croats, but we still had the lowest death toll of all three peoples in Yugoslavia as a whole.

As for Pavlevic, well... I'd rather have died at his hands than at Omarska, but he was a savage, vicious, brutal man. The tortures he inflicted on people were not experienced here before, and have only been experienced a few times since (Prijedor, Visegrad).
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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2006 at 02:23

Originally posted by Mila

On the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina more Bosniaks were killed than either Serbs or Croats, but we still had the lowest death toll of all three peoples in Yugoslavia as a whole.

If u r speaking of WWII-u have the wrong numbers-official no. of serbs is 164.000, bosniaks 75.000 and croats 64.000.

And its Pavelic, not Pavlevic.As I have written before, even tha nazis were shocked (do i need to say more) and the italian fascists had to intervene occasionally because of ustasha brutality.
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Posts: 1207 		  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 18:45
Originally posted by Bosniathebestcountry

Ive heard some ustasha Ante Pavlevic who massacred serbs in such grotesque ways that even the nazis were shocked by it.


Yeah, their specialty was to gouge out their eyes....Disgusting.
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Posts: 294 		  Quote YuGo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2006 at 20:35

Originally posted by Mila

On the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina more Bosniaks were killed than either Serbs or Croats, but we still had the lowest death toll of all three peoples in Yugoslavia as a whole.

As for Pavlevic, well... I'd rather have died at his hands than at Omarska, but he was a savage, vicious, brutal man. The tortures he inflicted on people were not experienced here before, and have only been experienced a few times since (Prijedor, Visegrad).

Can you ever just say Serbs had gone through war, and had to go through terrible things, and just leave it at that? Or do you have to put that more Bosniaks were killed than Serbs... and then compare the war in the 90's to this. Everyone already knows what Bosniaks had gone through, little if any in the west can even recall places like Jasenovac. Its not even listed on American version, of Consentration Camps in Europe.

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Posts: 416 		  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 04:21

Nicely said. And yes-most westerners don't even know of Jasenovac.Not to speak of their jumping to hasty conclusions without regarding the facts.Yet, there is plenty of evidence for what is done in jasenovac-some of them being ustasha's diaries-reading just one page will give u nightmares for weeks.
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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 10:10
Originally posted by YuGo

Can you ever just say Serbs had gone through war, and had to go through terrible things, and just leave it at that?


I already did, several times, in relation to WWII - even though tens of thousands of my people were also killed.

Can you all say the same about 1992-1995?


Edited by Mila
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Posts: 1207 		  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 17:08
Originally posted by

Can you ever just say Serbs had gone through war, and had to go through terrible things, and just leave it at that? Or do you have to put that more Bosniaks were killed than Serbs... and then compare the war in the 90's to this. Everyone already knows what Bosniaks had gone through, little if any in the west can even recall places like Jasenovac. Its not even listed on American version, of Consentration Camps in Europe.



Well said, Yugo. Most people think of us as the aggressers and so called "Nationalists."

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Posts: 294 		  Quote YuGo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 17:09

Mila,

I personally have mentioned countless times, terrible crimes commited against Muslims in Bosnia, and not even mentioning serbs, maybe not in this forum, but in general I have. So I don't think that question should go out to me, at all. I have never said anything against Bosniaks, and have infact defended them several times.

It just seems like you are forcing this apon us. We understand you are Bosniak - that doesn't mean you have to shove it down our throughts, and go on to say Bosniaks were the first slavs in Bosnia, Serbs and Croats from Bosnia are really Bosniak etc. etc. Maybe that isn't your intention but that is the sence I am getting from some of your posts.

 



Edited by YuGo
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Posts: 1207 		  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2006 at 17:18
Well said. I have nothing agansit Bosniaks or Muslims either. In fact, my 2 best friends are Muslim and my closest friend is a Bosniak/Serb. But, I still have to keep in mind that Bosniaks killed many of my people back in Sarajevo. When my family and I were leaving Bosnia, we had to tell the Bosniak boarder police that we were Croats, or we would have been killed instantly. Luckily we have a last name that is Serb or Croat.

As for Mila,

I know that you're a good person, and have good intentions, but sometimes you tend to make us feel down. Serbs slaughtered Bosniaks, Bosniaks slaughtered Serbs. And that is always how I saw it. You on;y mention the Muslims that were killed by Serbs, but everyone fails to mention the Serbs killed by the Croatians in Krajina. No one does, and that makes me mad, becuase we DID die during the war, and everyone points the finger at us



Edited by Jay.
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Posts: 618 		  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2006 at 02:33

Originally posted by Mila

We'd never have gotten as rich as we did either. I'd
be afraid to touch the walls of buildings in eastern
Bulgaria.

I don't get it. Please explain.
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