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Bush cut New Orleans flood funding 44% to pay for Iraq |
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cattus 
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1803 |
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 Topic: Bush cut New Orleans flood funding 44% to pay for IraqPosted: 04-Sep-2005 at 18:14 |
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Yeah, evidently funding was cut in 2002 just like it was at some point during every presidents administration before Bush going back since the 70s. I have been wracking my brain trying to figure-out what happened in 2001 that may have caused cuts for 2002. I dont think it was the Iraq war.  Sorry for the smartass comment but political trash like his/her article is bad from any direction of the spectrum.
All the facts are not even out yet on the causes flooding and people are playing the blame game. It is truly shameful. |
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Bishop
Shogun 
Joined: 08-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 04-Sep-2005 at 23:19 |
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Where did i say this? You dont post a quote of what i said you just say I said it. This is misleading and a lie. Show me the direct quote where i said the Federal government did nothing to help. You cannot of course. You can't argue against my point about the legislative process. No doubt because you have no working knowledge of the process. Instead you pretend that you have forced me to agree with you're Socratic argument. Everyone who reads this can see what you're doing. You have fooled no one with these tactics. The only person you fool is yourself.
Why dont you post the quote when you make these statements? Why do you just write this crap out? Do you think people just come in and read the last page of the thread? Everyone has read the entire thread, they can clearly see this for what it is. I wrote out and explained my position. I can't help it if you cant understand what you read. I can't help it if you don't understand the difference between the State Legislator and the Executive. I can't help it that you don't understand the difference between local and federal jurisdiction. But in you're defense, considering you have no idea what you're talking about. You kept putting up a fight. Sure it's weak and baseless crap, but you kept throwing the punches. Kinda like a retard that doesnt know banging his head against the wall gets him nowhere. Edited by Bishop |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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vagabond
Colonel 
Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 524 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 05-Sep-2005 at 04:22 |
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My considered opinion is that there is confusion here between opinion and fact. I believe that perhaps someone should say something about the difference. I won't, except to say that I think an opinion is usually prefaced by a qualifier. I believe that if we read our history and have some facts to present before we begin to be commentators, and perhaps quote an occasional source, people won't think we are pulling our "facts" out of the air - or anywhere else. Just one example from many in the posts above -
I am glad it was prefaced by a qualifier, making it an opinion, but even a glance at Wikipedia would have shown this to be untrue, and a source as simple as Encarta says, "rising waters of the Mississippi River frequently flooded the city." From the day that LeBlond de la Tour first slapped a mosquito while saying that this was a lousy place to build a fort (or something like that), floods have been a problem. A Louisiana State University Publication on "The French Colonial Period" says,
An Army Corps of Engineers history that gives us insight into the failure of New Orleans to provide adequate drainage for rain runoff and sewage - leading to flooding. As to the levee's being the responsibility of the federal government, it was a responsibility taken on by them in response to other historic floods. In the last century the Great Flood of 1927 with over 200 lives lost - and 600,000 displaced resulted in passage of the Flood Control Act. At the end of the century, in May, 1995, six died in flooding and the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, or SELA was founded, and funded, as a result. This site lists significant flood years on the Missisippi for the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Bush's initial statements on the flooding contained patent untruths. The soon to be famous
A New York Times article from 2002 NPR Programming 2002: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1150367 and for those with a short memory a report from August 29, 2005 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4821301 &ft=1&f=3 The Times Picayune has run multiple articles about the Army Corps of Engineers cutting back on flood control work due to recent funding cuts. here is one of those articles from 2004 - on a Homeland security page! http://www.loep.state.la.us/newsrelated/incaseofemrgencyexer cise.htm This article contains information about how the Army Corps of Engineers cut funding to the Southeast Louisiana Flood Control Project due to diversion of funds to Iraq Here is another direct contradiction to the statement that no one knew how bad this specific storm could be. Washington Post columnist Dan Froomkin covers many of the questions surrounding the Government's lack of response here: And from the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pennsylvania (they list all their sources - in my opinion that's a good thing!) Bush also prefaced his comments with a qualifier - but I think the first three words are the most important part of his sentence. |
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In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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hugoestr
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 07:04 |
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Bishop,
Oh, really? Let me quote the entire post that I used as a source. I will put in bold that which I quoted from you.
I find spelling out the arguments humiliating, since my assumption is that everyone is smart enough to figure it out since it is so obvious. Your post indicates that I have to do so.
From the context, I interpret this to mean that you admit is responsible. Your argument is that the whole Congress, including Democratic members, voted against giving funding for the levees. Below is the second quote that I used, where you say what I just stated:
With these two quotes, you are admitting that Bush and Congress failed to protect New Orleans by giving adequate funding to maintain and fix the levees. Since you agree on this fact, no funding for the protection of the city, our original argument. Now, of course you never literally admit to this. Remember how conservatives have a problem admitting that they are wrong? Furthermore, your whole federal argument tacitly assumes that it failed protect the citizens, thus your explanation why they didnt have to do it in the first place. The right thing to do is to accept the implied premises and the meaning of your statements, admit the logical conclusions from your statements, and move on with your argument about how the Federal government doesnt have to protect its citizens, which is another topic now in another thread. One more thing: please restrain yourself from falsely accusing people from misquoting you. This is a particularly dirty trick that has no place in adult conversation or in AE. |
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 07:26 |
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Bishop,
You are crossing the line with your personal attacks in this post. Step back and read what you said. You are paving the way to getting banned soon if you keep using this style. You already used it with Tobodai and now you are using it with me. Not only do you insult people, but you seem to have the habit of making unfounded claims about the level of knowledge or beliefs of other people with whom you disagree. This amounts to outright lying, since you have no idea of what you are talking about the personal experiences, beliefs, and knowledge of other people. This is reflecting horribly on your character. From our private exchanges I know this is not true. Please don't get into trouble for no reason. I am quoting your whole post, highlighting the abusive sentences.
This wasn't a lie or misleading. I quoted you correctly as a proved in my previous post.
That is a thought which you should apply to yourself and this post. Screaming your way through a debate is not winning it.
I am sure that the moderators will take notice of this; especially of your closing statement. If you want to discuss the federal system, there is another thread just on this topic where you can educate me on it. As far as the original claim, you agreed with the point that Bush and Congress failed to protect New Orleans, and your argument based on federalism assumes this. Take responsibility for what you have said. An public apology will certainly fix the damage that you have done to yourself in the eyes of the moderators. I for my part already forgive you. 
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Bishop
Shogun
Joined: 08-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 11:17 |
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Why do you keep trying to insist I said things I didn't? Because you are one just trying to piss me off. And two because you have a baseless argument and no facts to back up any claims you make. Why would I deny anything I say. If I said it then logically I believe it. You just keep trying to twist my words to piss me off. My whole argument was an attempt to try to explain to you how the state legislator is the where most of the blame should be. I of course didn't want to play the blame game so I tried to explain local jurisdiction. But you dont want to hear any of this you just want to miss quote me because you dont want to get involved in a real debate you just want to cause trouble. Oh and by the way ive noticed you are now trying to change to argument to Bush cut all funding. The freaking thread title shows you to be a liar on that one. The funds were cut by 44% on the federal level. You can't even quote the thread title correctly!
Don't threaten me with being banned hugo. If you have some authority on the matter then ban me. If you don't then shut up. Now run up to the book store and get yourself a civics book. And learn the difference between local and federal jurisdiction. I will accept you're public apology for miss quoting me whenever you feel so inclined. Edited by Bishop |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 14:04 |
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Bishop,
Thanks for correcting my mistake. I will change my position then: Bush and Congress failed to protect New Orleans by cutting funds that would have fixed the the levees." There. No biggie. I can admit I made a mistake. I can take responsibility for what I said, and I can then go an fix it. Even if the funding was cut 44% or only 44% of what they needed, it still was not enough money to fix the levees. As such, my argument stands; so your agreement. Now it is your turn; if you have enough courage to do so. So far the only thing that you seem keen on doing is continuing unfounded personal attacks. Control your temper, and apologize for all of the insults that you directed at me. Not for my sake, but for yours. Rehabilitate your reputation. Show character. |
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Bishop
Shogun
Joined: 08-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 15:03 |
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Nice correction, but you are still wrong. The levee's didn't need fixing, they were not broke. It took a cat5 hurricane with a direct hit to break the levee. What argument? you have no argument all you are doing is trying to put words in my mouth. Not only did you say there was no funding you said I said it! Now you want an apology from me because you miss quoted me? You want me to retract what I said? Retract what? I said at least 4 times the Louisiana state legislator and the city of New Orleans is to blame for the levee walls in New Orleans. Thats my position, what dont you understand? I pay federal taxes, I dont see where it's my place to make sure Louisiana has big enough walls around one of their cities to weather a cat5. I live in Florida only a few miles from the ocean. Maybe I want walls built here to protect me from a cat 5. If we were directly hit by a cat5 where im at my house would be wiped out. If in Florida if we think we need to make preparations for a cat 5. Well we should build the damn walls ourselves. Florida had a $61.6 billion dollar budget for Fiscal Year 2005. And we don't even have a state tax here. Maybe we should appeal to the federal government for hurricane walls. That way you guys in California can pay you're share, that way we wont have to spend money out of our precious budget. With all that said the federal government even with the 44% funding cut still met Louisanna more than half way on the cost. Yeah this seems harsh now after the fact. But you make an argument out of hindsight. It's such a mindless debate to make an argument from the stand point of hindsight. Well hell if we knew the hurricane was going to hit we would of built the walls bigger. I've lived near the ocean on the east coast of Florida my whole life. I've never seen a cat 5, cat4, or a cat3. A cat5 is devastating and even more so when it hits a city on the coast thats below sea level. Edited by Bishop |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 16:26 |
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Bishop,
Now I request you to look at the article that started this debate and correct a mistatement that you made. You said that the levees didn't need to be fixed. Since the senate was discussing adding money to fix the project this mean that what you are saying is wrong.
If Bush and Congress had given the money to keep up the levees, we could make the argument that they did the best they could. However, the column says that they took money away, making the levees more dangerous. This means that they failed to protect New Orleans. I believe that you have agreed to this from what I quoted above and this paragraph. Your last posts agains hints that the federal government should be responsible for protecting its citizens. Since this is another topic, please go to the other thread that I started to discuss this, state your belief, and we can go from there. I want an apology for your insulst. Stop denying your behavior and accept responsibility. |
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Bishop
Shogun
Joined: 08-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Sep-2005 at 16:52 |
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The fed cut 71 million on the levee system in Louisiana. Louisiana
has a 17.8 billion dollar budget. If it was so important why then didn't
the state fund the levee project? Arent you the least bit curious? No
you're not because all you're interested in is making this a political
debate. When in fact it's a debate on federal and state jurisdiction.
I dont accept you're apology made on my behalf. I don't recant one word I have typed to you or about you in any way. Edited by Bishop |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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cattus
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1803 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 04:22 |
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I still have yet to find any info on a single dollar that was earmarked or promised even, of funding for these projects that was sent to Iraq regardless of what Sidney or The Picayune may believe. The Army Corps of Engineers exonerates Bush and Congress on this now anyway based on the size of the hurricane.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 09:51 |
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Bishop,
If you want to discuss the role of the federal government, there is another thread for this, which you refuse to participate in it. Realize that your argument heavily implies that the federal government has little or no responsibility for protecting its citizens. I am waiting for you to discuss this on the other thread. And start taking responsibility for your words. Accept that you lost your self-control and wrote the words below. You also insulted Tobodai several times. Apologize for your behavior and don't do it again.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5354&PN= 1&TPN=5 |
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Bishop
Shogun
Joined: 08-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
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Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 13:36 |
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The thread title here is Bush cut New Orleans flood funding 44% to pay for Iraq Bush is apart apart of the federal government is he not? Do you actually think I'm going to join you in you're thread where you miss quote me in the first sentence? You have absolutely nothing intelligent to contribute to this topic. Quit waisting my time. |
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Sep-2005 at 13:58 |
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Bishop,
I offered you the chance to restate your position, and I will edit the first post with your text. What I said is what I truly believe your position is based on your entries here. Sometimes I get the impression that you are avoiding dicussing this issue with me where I will address properly. Maybe you will discover that I know more about how the government works that you claim I do. I am still waiting for you. And apologize for your insults already. |
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Zagros
Emperor 
Suspended Joined: 11-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8792 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 16:47 |
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/06092005/140/storm-survivors-told-l ift-tops.html |
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Tobodai
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 16:54 |
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It distrubs me greatly how many Americans seem pleased with the incompetant response this hurricaine got. Does anyone realize hoe delayed the response was, does anyone realize that the director of FEMAs only past work experience was judging horses in pony shows? People banter around who is to blame, local, federal, etc, the short answer is they are ALL to blame. The local and state officials ignored something right in front of them and the federal government was either on extended vacation or unaware what was happening. Days after the disaster hit we could see on our tvs the disaster, but FEMA would still not send supplies that could be easily air dropped because no one asked them too. Similarly there was two navy ships ready to give aid on the heels of the hurricaine all they needed was presidential permission, they never got it for days because someone was still on vacation or traveling to Colorado to talk about social security. And no Im not making up th ething about the director of FEMA being nothing but a horse show critic, its fact look it up. Im most shocked at the lack of outrage over the incompetence on all levels of the government response, I fear this apathy or spinelessness or whatever it is is going to let alot of very criminally negligent people get away with what they have done. |
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Sep-2005 at 16:54 |
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Amused or dejected? The immorality of corrupted power mixed in with desperate objects (females) brings out the ugliness in certain people. Edited by Seko |
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Seko
Emperor
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 09-Sep-2005 at 12:46 |
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More venting on the politics revolving around Katrina - http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0908-34.htm
"The government's failure was the result not of "simple incompetence" in the Administration but "of a campaign by most Republicans and too many Democrats to systematically vilify the role of government in American life," LA Times columnist Robert Scheer argued. And as the Financial Times observed, "For the past quarter-century in Washington...US politics has been dominated by the conviction that what was wrong with America would be solved by getting government off the people's backs"--an attitude that contributed to the criminal inaction on the part of the federal government. Indeed, you could see what the dog-eat-dog, antigovernment philosophy of the far right has reaped in the bloated bodies and raw sewage in New Orleans's flooded streets. That philosophy has attained new power under President Bush. While the Louisiana Army Corps of Engineers proposed $18 billion in projects that would have shored up the protective levees, improved flood control and perhaps prevented last week's breaches in the levees' walls, none of these projects were funded. Instead, the White House cut the Corps' budget and actually proposed a further 20 percent cut in 2006." |
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Aydin
Baron 
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 481 |
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Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 00:20 |
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cattus
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1803 |
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Posted: 10-Sep-2005 at 03:36 |
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I think this is a pretty good little piece. Its by Bob Williams of the local Evergreen Freedom Foundation. He isnt shackled by political parties or ideology and he cetainly does not have delusions that the US is or should be a nanny state.
Here: Blame Amid the Tragedy |
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