Russian Hostage Crisis

"Kuidas k�si k�ib?"

"1. Russia is already a capital of crime.... and no punishment much to the grief of Dostoevsky. "

Ah, I figured out what you were trying to imply by this...you think Russia is not different from Chechnya in terms of criminality. Well, if anything, that shows the depth of your ignorance. I don't deny that, especially in the big cities, Russia has very high levels of crime, in excess probably of even American rates. But at least, unlike in Chechnya, we don't have groups of armed bandits running around in the countryside, terrorizing the population, and a huge refugee problem, and 80% unemployment, and surviving off subsidies and constantly having gov't infrastructure attacked, etc.

Btw, I doubt you'd make that same comment about Russia having no punishment, after you spend a few years in a Russian prison.

There is no rational argument with some of you people.

Firstly, the thing you describe first thing a) has absolutely no relevance to Chechnya, b) don't act so surprised, Russia is a kleptocracy, judges are easily bought and your accusations verssu the gov't are unbacked, stupid and easily spreadable by any old rumor-monger and c) its a disgusting propaganda tactic of 'disfigurement' of Russia right before your more or less relevant piece.

Secondly, how dare you call Russian soldiers Nazis.  Say it to most Russians, especially older people who might still have some memories of the b..tards, and you'll deeply offend most, and sometimes get a richly deserved punch in the face. How dare you label a social group, many of them unwillingly conscripted, to fight bravely and heroically against militant Islamic terrorism and common banditry.

As for the rest, bombing Grozny was a military necessity in 2000, and despite the fact of massive misappropriation of the gov't funds funneled into Chechnya and bandit/terrorist activities, its a wonder that Kadyrov actually managed to restore more or less normal life by 2003.

And Chechen "guerillas" are precisely that - bandits (OK, a few are mujahedin, but that's not any better). Many of the refugees, and in fact most of the "atrocities" in Chechnya, have been committed by these co-called 'freedom fighters' who continue to terrorize the countryside. And need I explain for the umpteenth time why Chechnya can't be released?? You have obviously read nothing of the previous posts.

I was not going to bother with this topic any more, since you basically regurgitate already answered agruments. However, your use of the imperative without a 'please' annoyed me enough for me to make a reply.

Firstly, 700,000??? Give me a break dude. The population of Chechnya itself is 500,000. Even serious Western estimates of the number killed in the Chechen wars are around 30,000-50,000. I do not know if it counts in the 20,000 Russians who died in the Chechen ethnic cleansing of 250,000 Russians in 1991-94.

Secondly, as I have said on numerous occasions Chechnya is a fundamentally lawless place, a jungle (or rather hilly area) where only the strongest survive. It has been like that yesterday (including to some extent even during the USSR), today and most probably tomorrow. Armed bandits run loose around the countryside, looting, raping, killing, etc, things that get blamed on the Russian army (despite the much-improved situation over when Chechnya was functionally independent).

Thirdly, don't even bother comparing Chechnya to Palestine. The situations are completely different.

Fourthly, you think the FSB just drags off any odd person on Grozny's street. Think again, these are bandits who have been lived on murder and robbery for years. I am not arrogant to enough to say there aren't any mistakes (there inevitably would be a few), but that's the price Chechnya must pay for internal peace and order.

Fifthly, just give me the quote where I say life in Chechnya is "normal". I said "more or less normal", and the definition of "normality" in Chechnya, is rather different than your's or mine. All I will say is that after it's much more normal than in 1996-99, when the "gov't" of Chechnya, with President Maskhadov, misappropriated all the reconstruction funds sent from Russian taxpayers and salaries weren't payed, schools were closed, bandits totally dominated the countryside, Chechnya was a criminal and terrorist base and sharia was the law of the land. (BTW, it is quite sad, but hardly surprising to have seen the Western media being barely able to cover their joy at Kadyrov's assassination, who had done so much for Chechnya.)

Sixthly, yes I know Sufism is the religion of most Chechens. Where did I deny this? Wahhabism is an import from Saudi Arabia in the 1996-99 period, when sharia became law (and if you know the first thing about it, sharia belongs to the Middle Ages), and other "progressive" things were done, e.g. closing schools. And why did Maskhadov import Wahhabism? He wanted the funds and weaponry that went with it from Saudi fundie oil baron b..tards who have nothing better to do with their time and cash than spread their own stupid fundamentalism.

There are no "freedom fighters" in Chechnya. Most are bandits. I'll give you my definition: "An armed thief who is (usually) a member of a band", just to clear up any doubts. Some are mujahedeen who fight to establish an Islamic Respublic (btw, when Basayev invaded Russia in 1996 he wanted to establish the "Islamic Republic of Chechnya and Daghestan", and Daghestan is a rather more progressive Muslim region in Russia where thousands of men volunteered to fight off the attack, wanting nothing to do with fundamentalism). A very few, admittedly, are genuine nationalists who want an independent Chechnya. What they tragically don't understand, if that Chechnya can never be independent and at peace because of the still fundamentally tribal nature of its society (I've already explained it in more detail above).

Those are totally unbased conspiracy theorists. The very same type of residue was found in the apartment bombings as in Osama bin Laden's bombings of the African embassies at around the same time. And as for the very suggestion that Putin organized Beslan...dude, you might as well join the "Queen Elizabeth II and British Royal Family are actually Lizards bent on World Domination" club, at least that is about 37.82 times more credible than that (yes, I am not joking, I really have heard of this particular conspiracy theory).

What need I say? I wasted about 30 mins of my life in replying to this regurgitated nonsense. From now, I guarantee you, I will not do it again, unless you come up with something new instead of propagandistic drivel I have replied to earlier in this thread (btw, please, DO READ ALL THIS THREAD that concerns Chechnya). I also lead a busy life and I don't normally bother to repeat myself, when the answer is already given, as I have done this time.

Have a nice day.

Yes Lord Anatolius, no solid proof from your side on the matter other than repeat of us not believing you.

"And as for the very suggestion that Putin organized Beslan...dude, you might as well join the "Queen Elizabeth II and British Royal Family are actually Lizards bent on World Domination" club, at least that is about 37.82 times more credible than that (yes, I am not joking, I really have heard of this particular conspiracy theory)."

Just look at the Russia of today, Putin is a dictator, no free TV programs and journalism. Putin will probably be "elected" president for the next 2 presidencies. He is just gathering all of the possible power he can get in Russia and i don't think 338 people are not too big of a price to pay for that kind of a xontrol over Russia.

"(BTW, it is quite sad, but hardly surprising to have seen the Western media being barely able to cover their joy at Kadyrov's assassination, who had done so much for Chechnya.)"

That is one thing an imperialist nation can never understand. No matter how Kadyrov had ruled or did rule doesn't make him anything more than a Russian puppet (he got the job from Russia right???) and that isn't freedom.

"That was a mistake - the numbers should have been 50,000 for Grozny. But your disgusting statement that the whole war only cost Chechenya 50,000 is laughable. There were 1,200,000 people before the war - now there is 500,000. Where has the 700,000 gone?"

Firstly, I got the figure from Samuel Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order". Admittedly, this was before the second Chechen War (but after the first), but the first one was incomparably more bloody. Secondly, the Chechen diaspora in the Russian Federation outside Chechnya numbers about 700,000.

Also, the statement "Your rubbish about "Islamic fundementalism" in Chechenya is without basis. Where is your source?" is absolutely stupid on your part. Possibly, the fact that the Maskhadov gov't 1996-99 was Wahhabist? The fact that Chechnya is swarming with foreign (most Arab) jihadis? As for sources, you can find it anywhere. Try Google and type in keywords such as "Chechnya" "Maskhadov" "1996-1999" "Islamic fundamentalism" "Wahhabism" etc. Feel free to do your own damn homework.

As for the conspiracy theories, yes they are just that. I even read a BBC article that reported the connection between the Moscow apartment and the African embassy bombings, but I cannot find it in their search engines. As for the Beslan school seige, how on earth could Putin organize that? Why would people just want to do it for him, knowing they would die? What would the consequences be if found out??

@Kalevipoeg,

There is freedom of speech in Russia. For instance, most newspapers heavily critisized Putin following Beslan. And can you check the Russian Internet? No you can't.

And I have already explained why giving Chechnya independence is suicide.  Plus, Kadyrov was democratically elected to power with a good majority. Despite the fact that the Chechen mullahs declared a fatwa on anybody who didn't vote.

"1. What can't  a KGB thug not organize?"

You don't seem to realize that the KGB was much more than a few shady black-uniformed guys around the block corner. It was a whole bureacracy, and Putin was little more than a high-placed official in that bureacracy.

"2. Some people are willing to give their lives to earn money for their families rather than let them starve.  - Or alternative scenario: Is there any garentee that Putin dosn't have loyal Chechen followers within the Secret Police who are willing to die for his cause?"

People don't starve in Russia. Maybe in the early 1990's, maybe in the future, but not nowadays. And the second possibility is simply ridiculous for anyone with some sense of psychology.

"3. What if they are not found out? A KGB thug seldom makes mistakes in his operations. Terrorists get the blame, they have the whole nation and even the world behind them in this war in Chechnya. "

There were 20 terrorists, IIRC. That's an awful amount of people to persuade. And how do you explain the presence of, was it, 10 Arabs and a black? You make a mistake. The only people who are behind the terrorists are those not involved in the Chechen conflict, with the honourable exception of Iran, a few Muslim states and AFAIK India.

"Izveta (spelling?) was closed down for "too emotional" coverage of Beslan. "

Which is why its still working http://www.izvestia.ru/.

"Your questions are patheic"

The opinion is mutual.

About the death toll:

I've given you my source, Samuel Huntington "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order". He is an American and wrote the book in the US.

You have still to retract you statement that the death toll is "700,000". As for the website you've given, quote the whole damn thing:

Even there you can see many different statistics being offered (btw, the official statistics on numbers of Russian army deaths is 15,000 in the first war, 5,000 in the second. Also the statistics in no ways mean that the Russian Army caused the majority, or even a significant minority, of the civilian deaths. First you've got the Russian army fighting bandits, then you've got the bandits attacking civilians, remember.

"No, you can find it for me.  Plus much of that info is manipulated - what do you expect will get out of an authoritarian country? Not much but lies."

Check out these sites:

http://www.untimely-thoughts.com/?art=736&action=printer

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/chechnya-ba ck.htm

In particular, this description. I've read the intro and think it is one of the most accurate Western evaluations of the conflict. After finishing readint the Intro, click "next" on the top left hand corner. There are six such pages.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2000/04/ white/part01.htm