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white dragon
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Topic: religious freedom Posted: 23-Jun-2005 at 20:14 |
ok just in case i forget some of these, i need to know what are all the things that lead to religious freedom.
i also need some opinions on the most religiously opressive governments currently. at the least i need a couple of references to these things.
thanks
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Pray as if everything depended upon God and work as if everything depended upon man.
-Francis Cardinal Spellman
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Tobodai
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Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 23:55 |
Well lead to might not be the best begining. Before the absolutist doctrines of Abrahamistic religions and Zoroastrianism back in the good old polytheistic days there was alot of what you could call freedom, you could concentrate on one diety if you wanted, or pull some from other societies (the cult of Isis spreading into Rome is a good example).
As for religiously oppresive current governments, I remember there was a ranking back in the day, where it is now I do not know. I do remember Saudi Arabia was number 1, followed by Iran. The Taliban used to be the most by far, but thankfully all their praying got them was a bomb full of napalm and a ticket straight into obscurity.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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gcle2003
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 13:57 |
Personally I class metaphysical ideologies like Soviet communism and Nazism as religions, so I'd add the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Not too many people go along with me on that though.
Spain under the Inquisition surely has to be included. Geneva under Calvin, and Britain in the early years of Puritan rule during the Commonwealth (death penalty for adultery for example). Paraguay under the Jesuits (17th-18th centuries). Massachusetts colony (at least parts of it). Utah in the early years of Mormon rule (massacre of non-Mormon settlers). Many current Muslim countries operating under sharia law.
Don't know where to stop, really.
As to what leads to religious freedom - not caring much about religion, basically. Absence of faith in God, or seeing God - or the gods - as not terribly concerned with mankind.
Also of course the self-confidence not to need to demonstrate your moral superioritty to others.
I agree with Tobodai about the good old days of polytheism.
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 14:10 |
True. Monotheistic religions tend to be much more intolerant, because they exclude the existing of other gods.
Yesterday I bought "why I am not a Christian" from Bertrand Russell, really a great book.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 16:04 |
isnt there another version, "Why I am not a Muslim"? Is it the same author?
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 16:15 |
Never heard of "Why I am not a Muslim." But "Why I am not a Christian"
deals with religion in general (it even includes communism and fascism)
so I don't think it's from the same author.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:50 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Personally I class metaphysical ideologies like Soviet communism and Nazism as religions, so I'd add the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Not too many people go along with me on that though.
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I agree with you. Communism was a religion, nazism to lesser extent. Communism had even it apostols and its saints.
Take for example that little boy, i forgot his name. He denounced his parents to secret police and communists built him a monument and presented as a pattern which all the kids should follow.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 15:58 |
Hah! i remember his name. It was Pavka Morozov and here is article about him. Hard not not call him a saint of the communism.
From Wikipedia
Pavel Trofimovich Morozov (November 14, 1918 - September 3, 1932), better known by diminutive Pavlik or Pavka, was a Soviet youth glorified by the Soviet Union propaganda as a martyr. His story, dated to 1932, is that of a 13-year old boy who denounced his father to the authorities and was in turn killed by his family. It was a Soviet morality tale: opposing the state was selfish and reactionary, and state was more important than family. His story was a subject of compulsory children radings, songs, plays, a symphonic poem, a full-length opera and six biographies. There is very little orginal evidence related to the story, much of it a hearsay provided by second-hand witnesses. According to modern research, the story (denauciation, trial) is most likely a fictional tale, although there is little doubt that Pavlik was a real child who was murdered in some domestic quarrel.
< =text/>
//
The story
The most popuar account of the story is as follows: born to poor peasants in Gerasimovka, a small village near Yekaterinburg, Morozov was a dedicated communist who led the Young Pioneers at his school, and a supporter of Stalin's collectivization of farms. In 1932, at age 13, Morozov reported his father to the NKVD. Supposedly, Morozov's father had been forging documents, selling them to rich peasants. The elder Morozov was sentenced to ten years in a labor camp, and although his fate thereafter is unknown, it is thought that he did not long survive. However, Pavlik's family did not take kindly to his activities: on September 3 of that year, his uncle, grandfather, grandmother and a cousin murdered him, along with his younger brother. They were rounded up by the NKVD and convicted in a trial.
Thousands of telegrams from all over the Soviet Union urged the judge to show no mercy for Pavlik's killers. The Soviet government declared Pavlik Morozov a glorious martyr who had been murdered by reactionaries. Statues of him were built, and numerous schools and youth groups were named in his honour. An opera and numerous songs were written about him. Gerasimovka's school, which Morozov attended, became a shrine and children from all over the Soviet Union came on school excursions to visit it.
Fabricated?
It has been suggested since the collapse of the Soviet Union that Pavlik Morozov may not have been as perfect as it was supposed. Catriona Kelly in her 2005 book Comrade Pavlik: The Rise and Fall of a Soviet Boy Hero makes it clear that the official version of the account is almost wholly bogus, the evidence sketchy and based mostly on second-hand reports by alleged witnesses, and that Pavlik did not snitch on his parents and was murdered after a mundane squabble. Kelly also shows how the official version's emphasis shifted to suit the changing times and propaganda lines: in some accounts, Pavlik's father's crime was not forging the documents, but hoarding grain; in others, he was denounced not to the secret police, but to the school-teacher. The one surviving photograph of him shows a malnourished child, who bears almost no resemblance to the statues and pictures in children's books. It has also been said that he was nearly illiterate and was coerced to inform on his father by his mother, after Pavlik's father deserted the family.
There is, however, no doubt that Pavlik was a real person. According to Dmitry Prokupyanko, an 86-year-old war veteran, who went to school with Pavlik, "he was a hero, very brave, very clever. He was perfect. We used to pick mushrooms and catch fish together. Now everybody just wants to spit on his memory."
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gcle2003
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Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 06:13 |
Very interesting. But a myth doesn't have to be true to be a myth. Here it is the creation and use of the myth that is important, not the truth of the story.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 11:41 |
You are right. Myth and reality are 2 different things. As well as the stories about the Saints of Christianity and Islam are myths. We dont know the truth. In case of Pavka Morozov truth was just easier to discover than in case of saint who lived 1000 years ago..
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Mosquito
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Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 12:51 |
Look at the similarities between communism and christianity:
The holy 3:
Christianity: God, his son and holy spirit
Communism: Marx, Engels, Lenin
The holy book:
Christianity: bible,
Communism: works of Marx, Engels and Lenin
Leadership:
Christianity: in catholicism in person pope, as organisation the church, in reformed christianity different leaders (eg. king in anglicanism)
Communism: as organisation - the communist party, as person usually the first secretary of communist part (or different titles),
punishement for apostazy:
christianity: first death later excomunication
communism: death, prison or labour camp(and death)
Both chritianity and communism:
belive that leaders are always right,
that their faith/doctrines are the only true on the world,
need to share faith/doctrines all over the world,
belive that all the christians/communist are brothers,
both had saints and apostoles,
both have hierarchy,
both indoctrinate the people since childhood
in both belivers think that are in danger (for christianity communism and liberalism are considered as danger, for communists everything was considered as danger: eg. christianity, socialism, capitalism, democracy)
And if you will look deeper im sure you can find even more similarities.
Edited by Mosquito
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Tobodai
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Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 20:36 |
My new favorite post on AE ever!
Though the hierchy among people is considerably less in protestantism I would think.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Mosquito
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Posted: 01-Jul-2005 at 21:33 |
Dont get me wrong. Im not trying to proove that christianity is some evil doctrine. Im supporting the statement that communism was a religion too, i would say that comunists were even fundamentalists.
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