Pakistan and Hindustan

Originally posted by ScythianEmpire Originally posted by Afghanan Originally posted by ScythianEmpire Most of what you lot have said is complete nonsense. Afghanan, I dont know why you go on about this Pakistani lady you know. Perhaps she has a point and is right, and you are not!! Differences between Pakistanis and Indians Language/linguistics: About 75% of languages spoken in Pakistan are Indo-Aryan and 24% are Iranian, both part of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European family of languages. All languages of Pakistan are written in the Perso-Arabic script, with significant vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian. Punjabi, Seraiki, Sindhi, Pashto, Urdu, Balochi, Kashmiri, etc. are the languages spoken in Pakistan.  About 70% of languages spoken in India are Indo-Aryan, 25% are Dravidian, and 5% are Sino-Tibetan and Austro-Asiatic, all distinct family of languages. Most languages in India are written in Brahmi- derived scripts such as Devangari, Gurmukhi, Tamil, etc. Hindi, Bengali, Gujarati, Marathi, Telugu, Tamil, Malayalam, Assamese, Punjabi, and many others are the mother-tongue languages spoken in each of India's states. As you can see both countries have distinct linguistic identities. Even in the case of Punjabi, while it is the mother-tongue of a majority in Pakistan, it represents the mother-tongue of only 2% Indians. Besides, Pakistani Punjabi (Western Punjabi) is distinct in its vocabulary/dialect and writing script when compared to Indian Punjabi (Eastern Punjabi). In the case of Urdu/Hindi, while Hindi is the mother- tongue of a majority in India, Urdu is the mother-tongue of only 8% Pakistanis. Besides, they both are distinct languages, Urdu has a writing script and strong vocabulary derived from Arabic and Persian, whereas Hindi has strong vocabulary derived from Sanskrit and is written in Devangari script. Most Pakistanis can understand English and watch American/Brit movies but that does not make them British/American, same is the case with Hindi.   Scythian Empire, there is no question, I am right.  Hindi and Ordo are pretty much the same languages.  The only difference between them is that Ordo has many more Arabic and Persian loan words than Hindi, and its written in Perso-Arabic script.   They are relatively mutually intelligible languages and any Pakistani who claims otherwise is in denial.   Urdu might have a similar origin or grammar as Hindi (though the writing systems are totally different), but Hindi and Urdu (it's not Ordo which has a Turkish meaning) have more differences than just the scripting, many Hindi words come from Sanskrit, many Urdu words come from Persian. Hindi script is Devangari, Urdu scripting is Arabic (reflecting the need to communicate with  Arabs and Persians). "Following the Mughal conquest of India and the resulting vast Islamic empire, especially in the northern and central regions of the subcontinent, a hybrid language of Arabic, Persian, and local dialects began to form around the 10th and 11th centuries CE, one that would eventually be known as Urdu (from a Turkish word meaning "tent", in allusion to the army barracks of visiting troops). It grew from the interaction of (often Persian-speaking) Muslim soldiers and native peoples. Soon, the Persian script and Nasta'liq form of cursive was adopted, with additional figures added to accommodate the Indian phonetic system, and a new language based on the subcontinent's grammar with a vocabulary largely divided between Persian (and indirectly some Arabic) and local Prakrit dialects. Elements peculiar to Persian, such as the enclitic ez�fe, and the use of the takhallus, were readily absorbed into Urdu literature both religious and secular. While much of Urdu's vocabulary draws on Arabic and Persian, its grammar stems from its origins among the Prakrit-based Apabhramsa languages of the native peoples of India. Most of the basic vocabulary of Urdu, including grammatical particles, pronouns, and auxiliary verbs, developed in conjunction with Hindi from Prakrit precursors. Although Urdu and Hindi are separated by two completely different writing systems (Perso-Arabic script and Devanagari script, respectively) and formal vocabularies, the two language communities have been continuously connected by commerce and culture." There's little doubting the Persian and Arabic influence on the Urdu language, as well as the Apabrahmsa origins (similar to Hindi origins). It's more an amalgamation of languages. I wouldnt class Urdu as Persian or Arabic, or Hindu/Sanskrit, it's just a mixture. But there is definitely significant Persian and Arabic input in it, anybody who does not agree is also in denial.

What did you say that even remotely differed from what I said?  Just because it has Persian or Arabic influences doesn't make it an entirely 'different' language from Hindi or even 'unique' from Hindi.   The only thing that makes a language unique is its GRAMMAR.  In that sense, Hindi and Urdo are the SAME. 

Quote:

...It is only grammatical structure that can be said to characterize a language. No matter which writing system is used, no matter which vocabulary words are used, a language's grammar will follow regular and characteristic rules. These rules, which govern verb conjugation, noun declension, plural formation, syntax, etc., are largely consistent within a language but differ between languages. Thus a comparative study of these rules allows us to distinguish one language from another."  - Afroz Taj  (Urdu Through Hindi: Nastaliq With the Help of Devanagari )

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Again I fail to see how I was wrong.  Any Pakistani who claims that their Urdu language is derived from "Arabic mixed with Persian"  is completely wrong.  As I said BEFORE, the two languages differ in script and having more borrowed words than one another, its base is exactly the same.

 

Urdu is derived from Arabic mixed with Persian (later), but also Sanskrit languages such as Prakrit (initially).

It would genetically be classified as a Sanskrit language, but with some 40% of the words from Persian or Arabic it's been heavily modified and shares its derivation with these other languages

If you believe it is genetically classified as Sanskrit then you automatically NULLIFY the argument made in your website referral.

Here is the Genetic Classification of Urdu:

Genetic classification:

Indo-European  Indo-Iranian   Indo-Aryan    Western Hindi languages     Hindustani      Urdu

 

 

 

 

 

In one quote you say it is DERIVED from Arabic mixed with Persian then you leave in paranthesis: LATER.  

Again.  Dari is simply the courtly and written language of FARSI.   It was known as "Dari' by Kings in that region, and it was passed down as the national language of Afghanistan.  Dari and Farsi are written essentially the same for it to be a derivative of Dari it would have to retain its grammatical structure which it does NOT. 

This is the proper relationship: 

Urdu is a member of the Indo Aryan family of languages, which is in turn a branch of the Indo European family. It is part of a dialect continuum which extends across northern South Asia from Panjabi to Bengali. These idioms all have similar grammatical structures and a large portion of their vocabulary in common. Punjabi, for instance, is very similar to Urdu: Punjabi written in the Shahmukhi script can be understood by speakers of Urdu with a little difficulty, but spoken Punjabi has a very different phonology (pronunciation system) and cannot be easily understood by Urdu speakers. However, the language mostly closely linked to Urdu is Standard Hindi.

 

 

I'd like to add some things here if I may.

Firstly, I would like to let you know that I'm from the Indian controlled Kashmir, originating from the far north of the valley, thus I can speak koshur, balti and urdu (hindi is not taught or spoken in kashmir, even though it is a part of india, I can read urdu but cant read hindi), so dont go around calling me Pakistani etc. Now, I can understand most bollywood movies pretty well which are hindi, but at the same time when the hindi news comes on Doordarshan (national indian channel) I can only understand around 25% of what the woman is saying, because of all the really hard sanskrit words that have been brought into hindi over the past few decades, and since they aren't taught here, I don't understand them.

Now if you go back 40+ years, hindi and urdu were identical, but now, hindi has been changed too much and has a very high level of sanskrit in it, whereas urdu still has its old influences.

Also just look at this website :

 http://www.hindilearner.com/hindi_words0.html 

A normal Indian Kashmiri who can speak urdu wont understand 80% of that, I'm pretty sure that applies to Paki urdu speakers too. So as far as I'm concerned urdu and hindi are very closely related, but due to the changes brought about to them, are drifting further and further apart.

Also About Punjab and India/Pakistan, I've been to both, and would like to give my opinions; both are just as dirty, people are just as crude, and are pretty much identical with the only differnce being you see turbans in Indian side and not in the Paki side :/  (sorry I dont mean to generalise but I've had bad experiences on both sides). Islamabad was nice but was full of Pakhtuns, with all the Khan cloth houses and afghan shops/bakeries, reminded me of parts of Srinagar :S  Chandigarh was nice too.

P.S. Start the Kashmir debate, I'd love to see what a Pakistani & an Indian have to say about it.

P.P.S, I went to Azad kashmir too, its  been made into mini Punjab, they have nothing in common with us anymore, what did you guys to do them?? I know that they arent kashuri and that they are mostly pahari people but they arent even anything like the Paharis of Indian J&K, people didnt know what koshur was, never mind what it meant :(,  the food was all Punjabi, with all the rotis (chapatis), no Kashmiri nun tsai (pink tea) to be found anywhere, only milk tea etc :(.




Edited by Koshur - 21-Jul-2008 at 02:17

@Afghanan

You have such a blatant agenda that its not even funny. Stop pretending to be an all knowing God about Pakistanis. This is not an Afghan Supremacy site.
I just read through 4 pages of you drivel about Pakistanis being Indian. What does that even mean when you cant define what "Indian Culture" is?

Pakistanis are not Indian. And Pakistanis are not Arabs, or Middle Eastern either. Just because we are Muslim doesnt mean we are "acting Arab".

What you are confusing with "Indian Culture" is actually Pakistani Culture. i.e Muslim Punjabi culture, Sindhi Culture and Kashmiri Culture. The Pakistani independence in 1947 doesnt change the ancient culture and history of our people, so stop spewing meaning less statements about Pakistans 'creation'.

 

The posture of Pakistan and Hindustan standing against each other is out-dated now. Same holds for the theory of ‘Akhand Bharat’ which too is dead. There is no use of "unearthing the dead out of their graves".

 We Pakistanis are very proud of our being Pakistanis, so should the Indian be. To find similarity between Indian and Pakistanis, there are many but there are also stark differences between the two. President Zardari of Pakistan went miles ahead when he talked of some India in every Pakistani and some Pakistan in every Indian. This sentiment needs to be translated into a fruitful economic and cultural cooperation

 The world today needs a common south Asian initiative on global matters. The present aggrandizement (a legacy of last 60 years existence of both as independent nations) needs to be discontinued. Both should collaborate so that a common south Asian initiative becomes a reality. This, however, is not possible until and unless our Indian friends discontinue the ‘Akhand Bharat’ dream.

 Pakistan inherits not only its Muslim identity; it also inherits its thousand years’ heritage of Indus valley civilization, a civilization which started 9000 years ago in Mehrgarh, Balochistan. Hinduism, Christianity and Islam came much later.

 Even word India itself is derived from Indus and the land around Indus (present Pakistan and the north western part of India including states of Rajasthan and Gujarat had been a part of this civilization. But this is the archeology and anthropology of Pakistan. The present geographical position of both nations can continue and should continue, but the two of these countries need to come together. Instead of fighting on things which divide us, we have so many common things, a common history, music, and poetry, so why not capitalize on good things and to nurture a permanent peace between India and Pakistan. Side by side both can gradually proceed to sort out their differences on various issues including Kashmir.

 Both countries got nothing out of these wars. Its high time that both now enter an era of peace and friendship.

 

Nayyar Hashmey

http://wondersofpakistan.blogspot.com/