Okay I am just an all wrong dumb dog slave and you/they are all right gods and i bow and worship you.
You are "science" "archaeology" and i am dumb/wrong dog.
I hate myself and i hate you/them.
Yous are lying and cunningly twisting but i don't have the time and health and ability and situation and resources to beat you. No matter what stark evidences yous always cunningly subtly still make it falsely seem like yous are "science" and we are bad/dumb dog. The tactics are always so cunning and subtle that i can't find how to beat them.
I am not wasting anymore of my time. Yous win i can't beat your cunning dirty (but falsely appear to not be bad but be good) tactics.
I have to accept that i can't beat you no matter what because yous have too cunning tactics.
Some day some where some how in the next thousand years you/they will fall and everyone will know you/they were wrong/bad. But i the mean time i have to accept that yous rule the world with cunning etc. (I will never accept personal physcial slavery but i have to accept i am wasting my time trying to win against such cunning subtle etc tactics of people who rule the world and control everything).
I will post in my blog instead where you/they can't post lying replies.
Yous claim you are right but yous can not prove many things in your own chronology:
yous admit there is not trace of Joshua's Jericho in the level you claim he was in. But oh no you are "science" and "archaeology" etc.
yous often say "we can find no trace of Joseph and Moses" in Egypt in the times you assert they were in.
Yous claim Moses was 1300/1200s bc yet Bible says 480 years before Solomon.
They say that "Shishak's campaign doesn't match Sheshonk's".
Yous admit you can't reconcile Thera's archaeological and carbon dates, and yet oh no we are "science".
Yous can't prove your biblical and Egyptian/Mesopotamian matches.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
And here is exhibit A. You took a narrative which clearly took place in northern Canaan regarding a general of a Canaanite king from a different period than Seqnenenre Tao, a KING of Egyptian Thebes in the late 17th Dynasty who was the father of Ahmose, the founder of the 18th Dynasty, more than 200 years before the Tell Amarna Archive. In the first instance, it was the narrative was Canaanites vs. Israelites during the judges period c. 1200-1000 BC. The second was Egyptians vs. Hyksos, c. 1570 BC. And then you try the compare the wounds of Tao's head with the Biblical narrative. Dude, when the wounds of Tao's head were examined, it was determined that not only was that head wound caused by a dagger or javelin, but he also suffered from two blows of an axe in other parts of his skull. The biblical narrative specified that Sisera's wound was caused by a tent peg forced through by a hammer and no other blows. So, here you strike out 3 times!!!! Wrong place, wrong time, wrong method of death.
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The kings are only supposedly different period [date] according to orthodox "authoroties" asserted ascribed theoretical dates (disputed by some scholars and sources).
The periods are similar in historical details.
You must consider all details/evidences and similarities as well as differences, and you must admit quality matches and not just unfairly focus on only one or few. I underlined almost exact same very similar technical details words (eg both mention "mace/hammer", both "lying down", etc).
That there are also maybe one or two other holes/wounds doesn't necesarily prove that the two can't match, because there are perfectly possible explanations in our scenario (eg tent peg might have had more than one spike? eg "pierced through to the earth", eg he fell down and might have been damaged in fall, eg it was a clumsy-like striking with a tent peg and a mace by a woman, and she might have stabbed more than once, eg he had just come from a battle and might have been wounded). The bible text doesn't necessarily say there was definitely only one blow/stab/wound.
Your expert orthodox sources contradict the ones i have here. My orthodox one here says "with a mace" which is similar to the hammer in bible. You can't deny that the descriptions i underlined can possibly be the same, because the minor details are pretty amazingly similar.
The source mentions a few different possibilities for the weapon implying they are not sure as to the correct exact one/ones used, and the ones mentioned all tend to quite likely to be uncertain due to confusing nature not knew that a tent peg and mace had been used.
It is not the wrong place. It says "temples" of his head in English translation, which is perfectly possible to be same as Seqenenre's.
Hyksos supposedly introduced the chariot/horse into Egypt. Jabin and Sisera are linked with chariots and iron. So according to your orthodox chronology Hyksos are within the top end of possibility for Jabin and Sisera.
There are multiple matches of biblical events between Moses (in 12th dyn) and David (in 18th dynasties) with events between the 12th dyn (Moses) and 18th dyn (David). 3 years Shechem of Abimelech son of Jerubbaal/Gideon also may match 3 years Sharuhen of Apepi 2 and Ahmose son of Ebana.
So we have more than just one pin point, we have series of lots matches over long streches.
Judges was not "1200 - 1000" but 1400s to 1000s: "Moses was 480 years before Solomon".
There is no proof that Hyksos really are "1500s" bc date.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
Exhibit C. Lies. I do use the Bible. While I don't take everything the Bible says literally, let the record show that even I have used the Bible to disprove your assertions. True, i don't take the "480 years" literally but I do take it figuratively. I see in "480 years" as 12 generations (12 x 40 = 480) with 40 years to a generation. However I don't take 40 years to a generation literally either, simply "40" = "generation". This goes well with the amount of generations between Moses and Solomon being 12 generations!!! I go with a more biologically realistic generation of 25 years. Hence the time between Moses and Solomon is 300 years (12 x 25).
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"430 years to the very day". "400 years in foreign country" prophsied to Abraham. "450 years" in Acts. 300 years to Jephthah in Judges. It doesn't say "12 generations" it says "480 years". Sure it might be possible it was code for 12 generations, but it doesn't mean it definitely is.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
I had mentioned such a series for the Late Assyrian period (continuous series of limmus from 911-630 BC) but we also have 418 limmus from the Middle Assyrian period mainly from the reign of Ashur-nadin-ahhe II (c. 1402-1393 BC) to Ashur-bel-kala (c. 1074-1057 BC) and after. We also have limmu from the Early Assyrian Period beginning from the reign of Erishum I (c. 1972-1933 BC) to after the reign of Ishme-Dagan (c. 1755-1736? BC). So, we do have the evidence to show that the Assyrians were keeping track of time and therefore the lengths of reign of their rulers is a just as valid as the figures in the Bible. Please DON'T be biased to the Bible because it is considered a "sacred text". When you criticise the regnal figures of the Assyrian kings you are offering NO PROOF that they are "exaggerated", "lies", "co-regencies", "rounded up/down", "contemporary dynasties", etc. Such had also been said of the figures in the Bible for the Judahite and israelite kings. Remember, limmus are "contemporary records" hence they are very valuable in the tracking of chronological time.
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"No proof" doesn't mean that it is not possible (as evidences do imply). There is evidences of coregencies, but yous refuse to accept some evidences and only willing to acccept limit ones (the elite are always doing this: making the be all and end all only one certain thing that they will acccept and nothing else). Judah and Israel kings of the same period has proven coregencies in their lists.
I already told you your Assyrian king list is an artifical combination of 2 or 3 or 4 different dynasties/cities. I do not see proof that the Asshur and Calah and Nineveh dynasties kings lists (or Old, Mitanni, Middle, and Neo periods) are really all consecutive.
I already posted different claimed lengths of periods in different ancient sources in the Sargon thread.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
Actually we do, but they only relate to events in Assyria.
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Then why don't they/you give them? The only ones i have seen include the Ashurbanipal to Kutirnahhunte one.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
Currently the Venus tablets of Ammisaduqa is ONLY disputed as to whether the Middle or Low Chronology is preferred, just a mere 64 years difference. Up to about 1500 BC the Assyro-Babylonian chronology is really not disputed.
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It is not true that Ammisaduga is only disputed between Old/Long and Middle and Low/Short dates. It is only true that they may only be disputed within orthodox establishment between those dates, but what about all other people in world and history other than the present orthodox establishment? Velikovsky and Rohl and myself are some scholars of some accomplishment (though yous refuse to admit any) who have disputed the Ammisaduga date much more than the confined limits of old/long and short/low ascribed dates.
Ammi-saduga might be connected with Apepi or Adoni-bezek?
Originally posted by Sharrukin
I would agree that there are problems matching Shoshenq's campaign with Shishak's. However Shoshenq's Dynasty does coincide with the era of the Divided Kingdom based on most schemes, but I am willing to talk about this problem as a separate post.
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The orthodox claim that Sheshonk supposedly matches in dates. I have not yet seen any proof of how/why that they are supposedly in same time in orthodox theory, and i am also certain that they are not same date and that the supposed chronological calculations are flawed in one or more places. The only thing sthat supposedly matches between the two are: the supposed same time (in orthodox ascribed dates), and similar names (disputed by some), and half similar campaigns, and a wee bit of gold jewlery that supposedly could be from temple gold, and a Libyan/Lubim supposed connection. But these are pretty few and pretty weak/poor matches, and there are contrary evidences.
Bible has "princes of Zoan/Tanis and Noph" (supposedly Memphis but might be No-amun/Thebes?) in time between Jeroboam and Zedekiah. This is the 20th/21st/22nd Tanite dynasties period.
22nd dynasty has synchronisms with Phoenicians kings which again is post Solomon?
22nd dynasty has matches with Assyrian names which is post Rehoboam.
"Shishak doesn't match Sheshonk's campaign" etc.
The Third Intermediate Period is an "intermediate period" similar to the SIP and FIP which implies a difficult/uncertain period.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
Well, A-R, that is true. There is NO Egyptian inscription which mention "Joseph" or "Moses".
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They/yous only admit/claim that there is no trace of Joseph/Moses in the times/dynasties that your orthodox "experts" chronology keeps asserting they are contemporary (in vertical estimations), and yous reject possible evidences of them in other periods mainly only because yous keep asserting they are supposedly different dates in "expert" opinion. It is not true that there is not trace of them in all other times/places, only that there is no trace of them in your/their "expert" supposedly contemporary date time. They not found then/there because they have the wrong time because their Egypt chronology dates are wrong (too old/long).
Originally posted by Sharrukin
And here is where you show your hubris. By "our chronology" you mean, "YOUR" chronology. Please don't ascribe it to anybody else except yourself. And NO A-R, none of your horizontal or vertical matches are qualitative or quantitative. It is all based on the most dubious matches imaginable. I questioned you on all of them. And the reason why you say that yours is better is that they don't match YOUR presuppositions. That's it.
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Not true that "only yourself" accepts our chronology. Other people agree with numerous areas eg:
Moses in 12th/13th agreed by Rohl, Down, Velikovsky, Hoeh.
Moses in 6th agreed by Courville, [Hoeh in 5th].
Joseph in 3rd-4th agreed by Mohler, Wyatt, Hoeh, Fasold, [Herodotus].
Joshua's Jericho in earlier MBA period agreed by Velikovsky, Garstang, Keller, and you yourself admitted in you lasts posts that they adimt the real date might be 1500s bc.
The only reason you/they assert that you don't agree that ours could possibly be right is because yous keep asserting that your "experts" added up dynasties reigns supposedly don't match/fit, but this has pitfalls.
Originally posted by Sharrukin
Enter the boy-king Tutankhamun, shown to be, based on genetics, the son of Akhenaten. He reigned about 10 years dying about age 19. .... There are depictions of Tutankhamun battling Asiatics but he himself probably did not travel there due to his physical defects.
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Amarna letters "i and Abdu-Heba (king of Jerusalem) alone are left to fight the leader of the Habiru (sagaz mesh "people of the rebel Mesh").... But behold they have been fighting against me...." This is possible to match around about or shortly before the time of David taking Jerusalem/Zion.
Similarities between story of David murdering Uriah and the story of Tutankhamun/Huriya and/or Zannanza:
David/Uriah: David had an affir with wife of Uriah and she got pregnant, and to cover up the slip he murdred the young military commander Uriah the Hittite in battle "killed bythe sword of the sons of Ammon" (after Uriah had refused to "go down to his own house"), his wife/widow bewailed "her owner", and later David married Uriah's widow Bathsheba. The child from the affair died after 7 days. Nathan the prophet went and told David off with a word picture about someone taking someones only lamb which they had brought up in their lap. Later Nathan was involved in securing Solomon's succesion.
Uriah is called a "Hittite". David's name means "beloved" and is related/similar to Dadda/Adad which can mean "father". Ur can mean fire/light/gold? Story include writing a letter.
Tut/Huriya: The "boy/child king", whose battle armour recently in news, who fought Asiatics, died after about 7/8/9 years reign and aged about 17, he was entombed in the 70 days period. His widow Ankhesenpaaten sent to Hittie king asking to send a Hittie prince for her to marry. The Hittite prince when sent was "murdered" on the way before arriving in Egypt, "possibly the blame put at feet of Horembab" (who suceeded next after the first immediate successor Ay). Ankhesenpaaten is linked with "6 daughters/sisters", she afterwards married the successor Ay "(holy) father / father (of god).
Tut might match "Horus" in the classical king lists? (The young god Horus like Osiris was murdered by Set/Typhon in one story? Tut's name means "living image of hidden god Amun". Tut could also be a type of martyr Jesus?) Nibhurrereya/Naphuriya/Huriya of the Amarna letters is supposed to match a name of Akhenaten, but it could possibly match a similar Nebkheperure name of Tutankhamun? There has been recent theory that he may have "died in battle in Syria".
The Amarna period herectic kings had "Mitanni/Hurrian/Hittite/Aryan" ancestors just a couple/few generations back.
Smenkhkare was the favoured successor of Akhenaten. Akhenaten is famous as a devotee/priest/prophet of Aten. Psalm in bible is similar to his Hymn to Aten. Tut's tomb is famous for its rich gold treasures.
Amarna letters period.
The stories details are somewhat similar on the murders etc that i can't be sure whether the are the same or different. The bible may have got a few details distorted in the oral memory before being written down? The one biggest possible difference is that David saw Uriah's wife in Jerusalem seemingly, and Tut's wife is unlikely to have been there? But it still looks like it might possibly actually be possible.
Egyptian persons possible Biblical matches:
Ay "(holy) father / father (of god)" : David (Dadda)?
Naphuriya/Huriya ("Horus") : Uriah the Hittite?
murdered Hittite prince Zannanza : Uriah the Hittite?
child/boy Tutankhamun ("Horus", battle armour, 17 yrs old) : Uriah? child of David/Bathsheba (7 days old)?
Akhenaten/Ikhnaton/Khunaton : Nathan?
Smenkhkare : Solomon?
Hor-em-hab : Jeroboam? Rehoboam? Solomon? Hiram?
Biblical persons possble Egyptian matches:
David (husband of Bathsheba) : Ay "father" (husband of Ankhesenpaaten)?
Bathsheba (daughter 7, wife of David) : Ankhesenpaaten (6 daughters/sisters, wife of Ay)? Abdiheba?
Uriah : Huriya/Tut (battle armour, battling Asiatics)? &/or Zannanza (murdered)? Burna-buriash? Biryawaza? Biridiya?
child of David & Bathsheba: child/boy Tutankhamun? prince Zannanza?
prophet Nathan : Ikhnaton/Khnaton/Akhenaten or Aten/Aton?
Solomon : Smenkhkare? or Horemhab? or Suppiluliumash?
Hiram : Horemhab? Ramses? Ahiram?
Queen of Sheba: Nefertiti? Neferneferuaten? Smenkhkare? Abdiheba? Kiya?
Jeroboam or Rehoboam : Hor-em-hab (Heru/Horus)?
Shishak/Susakim : Seti 1 or Ramses 2 "Sesostris/Sestura"? (not Tut as i previously though?)
Edited by Arthur-Robin - 18-Aug-2018 at 11:52