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Little Turkey in the middle of Europe

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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Little Turkey in the middle of Europe
    Posted: 28-May-2005 at 18:48
Originally posted by baracuda


Well I know, I know.. but then again they just might.. as they could benefit from this state in some way.... I know that its less than 90 years back they sold us out to the highest bidder.. but who knows times change, they know what the word 'turk' means when it comes to war.

maybe


You see I can tell that you are a turk from these sentences haha

lol is it so obvious



Yes, they can.. but think of it this way.. if the state has connection with outside of EU, grows economically to be a giant technological or financial center, then EU would be forced to notice the state for moneysake

To have connections outside the EU it would have to have agreements with EU nations it would border for the transportation of goods, movement of people etc

Centers well.. you see there is a little problem with that of control, defence (in a sense that they are dependent of limitations and laws fair or unfair forced upon them, including different laws which pulsate as political parties change.. so It would be much better to have a state..

By creating such centres and supporting other Turks with finances and resources we would influence any laws forced upon us mre favourably.  Dont forget the EU is primarily an Economic entity, therefore regardless of what political party is in power money talks .



It wont help.. you see it comes from the saying " If a tree falls down in the middle of a forest with no one to hear, falls silently" -

 "from the withered tree a flower blooms"

I think the greeks actually need the turks to some degree to keep the attention on themselves, and they do what they do best, they talk... there are more believers of some X story in EU than there is anywhere... and these stories are not fiction to them but fact and reality. Even when their own history dis-proves them, they just shrug and continue on to some other theme.. (history as in arhives,treaties...)Its very sad.

    These all have to be changed, either using their own arhives and series of politics, to put it to their heads that we wont let them play with toys any more... or through a series of very harsh strategic planning making intentions known..

I think this would be best countered by Turkey and a strong organised Turkish community in Europe.  Its all about what side of the mountain ur looking at.  Turks are responsible for showing things from our perspective, whats sad is that we are too quiet.

Organizing to do something.. mmm Well, I dont know if thats possible.. its just not in the nature of a 'turk'.. we don't go to extremes, we dont whine, and we just dont stand up for ourselves until there is a war.. I mean.. organize.. ok.. it would be more of a club.. get together place than something else
Isnt a state a form of organisation?
Club, organisation, whatever how would be best to go about it and what would fall within its scope?
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2005 at 18:55
Originally posted by Cywr

Alevis in Germany are very organised, though some people in Turkey aren;t very happy with that from what i've heard.

All i know is that some so called nationalists the Grey Wolves attacked an Alevi conference in a hotel killing a number of Alevis.  Bastards.  Apparently because they are not Sunni, it seems like the nationalists are becoming more wahabi like.
The Alevi folk traditions still retain many pre islamic customs as well as shamanic rituals, they are an important part of the Turkish heritage and identity.  If they are better organised then good on them as they will be better placed to preserve and revive the Turkish identity than many of the so called patriots.
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 01:19
Isnt a state a form of organisation?
Club, organisation, whatever how would be best to go about it and what would fall within its scope?


First of all people/groups with other agendas have to be brought together, alevis arent maniacs nor are the nationalists, nor the muslims... the problem is that there are activists with agendas in all of these groups financed by some people.. there has to be some other X group which they all should respect and be in.. as in essence a turk understands better the difference between black and white (right and wrong) Thats why I said there would be creases that need to be ironed out, people re-taught our culture and why we are turks.

    We are not inferior in anyway to any country or people's of any race we are and were superior both in strenght of adaptibility and in culture thats why we were feared througout the ages.. ex. Seljuks started out with a few men and with a dream of good pastures and ended with a population of thousands, art and a culture.. people respect us for many things.. but the only one's that are heard are the whinings...there has to be politics to swamp them out.. In a sense that we all have to stand against those that use us for their gain, they have to be shown through media, through walks, that we are "watching"      

I think culture is the turning point in such things, farther we go from our own culture and beliefs, we loose ourselves.. so a mass of various peacefull cultural organization is the starting point of such organizations..

In fact there are more things that should be done by the Turkish governments first to make the grounds for such movements('s due to other turkic countries as their population is in similar rape of de-culturization via religion..... to media)

( What angers me is the 'nationalists', they are anything but turkish nationalists.. they are exactly the same as some of the religious groups (as in fact they showed it politically.. they're using nationalism as a shield to lure people to their policy)     
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 02:54
they're using nationalism as a shield to lure people to their policy


Thats nationalists throughout the ages, which why they are sometimes called populists. Appeal to some romantic notion of the nation to win people over, and then spoon fed them your policies.
Never trust nationalists in politics, simple.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:02

It wont help.. you see it comes from the saying " If a tree falls down in the middle of a forest with no one to hear, falls silently" -
I think the greeks actually need the turks to some degree to keep the attention on themselves, and they do what they do best, they talk... there are more believers of some X story in EU than there is anywhere... and these stories are not fiction to them but fact and reality. Even when their own history dis-proves them, they just shrug and continue on to some other theme.. (history as in arhives,treaties...)Its very sad.

    These all have to be changed, either using their own arhives and series of politics, to put it to their heads that we wont let them play with toys any more... or through a series of very harsh strategic planning making intentions known.. 

    
       
Do not generalize nor talk about a nation withot knowing it.Am i clear? 
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--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 14:10
Originally posted by Spartakus

Do not generalize nor talk about a nation withot knowing it.Am i clear?


I know your nation and people and not only from being to Greece many times, but also from periods before me have many friends, who were from ex yugoslavia from a period much before mine when times weren't so hostile, my great grandfather helped and gained respect of so many people that they still pay their respects and call even though they're ortodox or catholic.

Actually the only problem I would ever have with your nation is the 'extremists', and 'politians' thats about 25% I would say.. And I belive that would be the same for my nation, with about 20-30% for you..

I didn't want to annoy or anything, but greeks are much better talkers than turks thats a fact..and your talks don't fall on deaf ears.. somethings get lost in politics and beliefs unfortunately.. and some of those I have mentioned in my first post here..
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 07:39
You do not know Hellas,because if you did,you would not say such things.Hellas does not need the Turks to keep any kind of attention,they need their friendship as well as the friedship of all Balkanic states.Be caferull when you post,generalizations are not good.It does not matter whether you want to annoy or not.what it really matters is your posts.You can tell Hellen nationalists,yes,,but not generalizations again. 
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 10:08
"spartakus" whatever, lets open a post on "foreign politics of Greece" someother place, and try to find out what I mean....it will be interesting for you if obejctivity is kept, there isn't any point in argueing it here..
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 12:59

You do not have to ask objectivity from me.Open whatever topic you want,but next time just state WHO are those Hellens that want Turks for their attention etc.

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 07:01
Originally posted by AyKurt


Well of course i think you may be a bit paranoid lol. Im not sure
what type of "organising" your thinking about that would create such a
reaction but i can assure you that my idea of getting organised will
not instigate any trouble .
In fact i agree that any political engagement should involve the state
in general, im actually a member of a political party, but i would also
want to be involved with a cultural and social organisation related to
my ethnic origin that would have within its scope activity that may be
considered political. I see no contradiction in this.

I'm not paranoid: people generally are though
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 12:27

Originally posted by AyKurt

All i know is that some so called nationalists the Grey Wolves attacked an Alevi conference in a hotel killing a number of Alevis.  Bastards.  Apparently because they are not Sunni, it seems like the nationalists are becoming more wahabi like.

The attackers were not Grey Wolves, they were radical Islamists.

There is not any connection between Turkish nationalism and vahabis like Islam.

Where do you get that kind of informations?

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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 00:42
Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by AyKurt

All i know is that some so called nationalists the Grey Wolves attacked an Alevi conference in a hotel killing a number of Alevis.  Bastards.  Apparently because they are not Sunni, it seems like the nationalists are becoming more wahabi like.


The attackers were not Grey Wolves, they were radical Islamists.


There is not any connection between Turkish nationalism and vahabis like Islam.


Where do you get that kind of informations?



Konu hakkinda pek bilgim yok, ama miliyetci parti ve milliyetci kesim, muslimanligi asiri derece kullaniyor.. neyin ne milliyetcisi olduklari belli degil.. Turk mu, yoksa turkum demeye calisan bir avuc hic mi.. zira turkum demekle dinlerin hic bir alakasi yok..
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 06:20
English please or else PM.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote baracuda Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 09:52
Konu hakkinda pek bilgim yok, ama miliyetci parti ve milliyetci kesim, muslimanligi asiri derece kullaniyor.. neyin ne milliyetcisi olduklari belli degil.. Turk mu, yoksa turkum demeye calisan bir avuc hic mi.. zira turkum demekle dinlerin hic bir alakasi yok..


Here's the translation for you.."spartakus" Im feeling generous today

"I dont know much about the subject but the nationalist party and people (as in turkey), are using islam too much.. so I dont really understand of whats their nationalistism is about, is it 'Turks' or are they just a handfull of nobodies that try to call themselves 'Turk's. because saying that you're a Turk, has absolutely nothing to do with religion.."

Edited by baracuda
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 12:07
That's better...
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 13:06
Originally posted by baracuda

Originally posted by Alparslan

Originally posted by AyKurt

All i know is that some so called nationalists the Grey Wolves attacked an Alevi conference in a hotel killing a number of Alevis.  Bastards.  Apparently because they are not Sunni, it seems like the nationalists are becoming more wahabi like.


The attackers were not Grey Wolves, they were radical Islamists.


There is not any connection between Turkish nationalism and vahabis like Islam.


Where do you get that kind of informations?



Konu hakkinda pek bilgim yok, ama miliyetci parti ve milliyetci kesim, muslimanligi asiri derece kullaniyor.. neyin ne milliyetcisi olduklari belli degil.. Turk mu, yoksa turkum demeye calisan bir avuc hic mi.. zira turkum demekle dinlerin hic bir alakasi yok..

Katlyorum (I agree)...

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