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Poll Question: What kind of political system do you want in your country?Subject???
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
6 [21.43%]
22 [78.57%]
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are you?
    Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 05:53

Originally posted by Gazi

We Turks have lived under absolute monarchy for more than 1400 years.I am glad that now Turkey is a republic.

In fact, more than 2000 years. Turkic people always had their khans or kaghans ruling them, like the other nations had kings, shahs, etc.

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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 07:25
I like Italy as a republic. As home of the first republic, Italy should naturally stay as such.  The only thing is, I  wish it was a stronger, more presidential republic.

Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 12:56
What is there in Republic that likes to you???Democracy????
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  Quote Thegeneral Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 13:28
Democracy, freedom, happiness.  it is just overall better. 
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 13:33
Republic are not necessary democratic. Think of N Korea or Zimbabwe.

Just like not all monarchies are dictatorship. Think of Sweden.
Vae victis!
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2005 at 15:52

Originally posted by rider

What is there in Republic that likes to you???Democracy????

Well, take for example Roman Republic. Every citisen had right to vote but their votes had different values.

Democracy is weird, i dont find it good that vote of someone stupid has the same weight as vote of someone clever. The votes of people who are better educated should have more weight than votes of those who are not educated. Those who pay higher taxes should also have more votes than those who pay lower taxes or who pay no tax at all.  Contribution of individuals to the commonwealth should determine their political rights while affcourse in face of civil and criminal law all the people should be equal.



Edited by Mosquito
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 01:15
yes democracy has its flaws, something will come along thats better, but it hasnt yet.  I think there should be political awareness tests to determine if you can vote or how much your vote matters, just to make sure people know whats going on. 
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote Exarchus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 08:03
Democracy is the worst system possible.

Exepted all others.
Vae victis!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 09:38
The fact that dumb and politically unaware people are allowed to vote is indeed one of the major flaws of democracy. But luckily most democracies nowadays are indirect democracies. People who get elected in parliaments and such are usually smarter than the average citizen, so that takes away part of the problem. (and it's one of the reasons I don't like referenda)
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2005 at 15:46

Originally posted by Mixcoatl

The fact that dumb and politically unaware people are allowed to vote is indeed one of the major flaws of democracy. But luckily most democracies nowadays are indirect democracies. People who get elected in parliaments and such are usually smarter than the average citizen, so that takes away part of the problem. (and it's one of the reasons I don't like referenda)

I disagree and again follow the thoughts of great brit John Stuart Mill. No society is able to elect better men than the average man in that society (as a rule but with possible exceptions). The poor and unmployment will always vote for those who will promisse them more monay for free, better social cover and such. People who get elected in parliaments and such are usually not smarter than those who elected them. Opinion that band of fools will elect genius i find rather funny.

"Speaking generally, the choice of the majority is determined by that portion of the body who are the most timid, the most narrow-minded and prejudiced, or who cling most tenaciously to the exclusive class-interest; and the electoral rights of the minority, while useless for the purposes for
which votes are given, serve only for compelling the majority to
accept the candidate of the weakest or worst portion of themselves."

"It is also important, that the assembly which votes the taxes, either
general or local, should be elected exclusively by those who pay
something towards the taxes imposed. Those who pay no taxes, disposing by their votes of other people's money, have every motive to be lavish and none to economize. As far as money matters are concerned, any power of voting possessed by them is a violation of the fundamental
principle of free government, a severance of the power of control from
the interest in its beneficial exercise. It amounts to allowing them
to put their hands into other people's pockets for any purpose which
they think fit to call a public one, which, in the great towns of the
United States, is known to have produced a scale of local taxation
onerous beyond example, and wholly borne by the wealthier classes.
That representation should be coextensive with taxation, not stopping
short of it, but also not going beyond it, is in accordance with the
theory of British institutions. But to reconcile this, as a condition
annexed to the representation, with universality, it is essential, as
it is on many other accounts desirable, that taxation, in a visible
shape, should descend to the poorest class. In this country, and in
most others, there is probably no laboring family which does not
contribute to the indirect taxes, by the purchase of tea, coffee,
sugar, not to mention narcotics or stimulants. But this mode of
defraying a share of the public expenses is hardly felt: the payer,
unless a person of education and reflection, does not identify his
interest with a low scale of public expenditure as closely as when
money for its support is demanded directly from himself; and even
supposing him to do so, he would doubtless take care that, however
lavish an expenditure he might, by his vote, assist in imposing upon
the government, it should not be defrayed by any additional taxes on
the articles which he himself consumes. It would be better that a
direct tax, in the simple form of a capitation, should be levied on
every grown person in the community; or that every such person should
be admitted an elector on allowing himself to be rated _extra ordinem_
to the assessed taxes; or that a small annual payment, rising and
falling with the gross expenditure of the country, should be required
from every registered elector, that so every one might feel that the
money which he assisted in voting was partly his own, and that he was
interested in keeping down its amount.

However this may be, I regard it as required by first principles that
the receipt of parish relief should be a peremptory disqualification
for the franchise. He who can not by his labor suffice for his own
support, has no claim to the privilege of helping himself to the money
of others. By becoming dependent on the remaining members of the
community for actual subsistence, he abdicates his claim to equal
rights with them in other respects. Those to whom he is indebted for
the continuance of his very existence may justly claim the exclusive
management of those common concerns to which he now brings nothing, or less than he takes away."

John Stuart Mill

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 09:16

Originally posted by Mosquito

Democracy is weird, i dont find it good that vote of someone stupid has the same weight as vote of someone clever. The votes of people who are better educated should have more weight than votes of those who are not educated. Those who pay higher taxes should also have more votes than those who pay lower taxes or who pay no tax at all.  Contribution of individuals to the commonwealth should determine their political rights while affcourse in face of civil and criminal law all the people should be equal.

Yes, i think the same.. it is quite weird that anyone, fools and clevers can vote and usually there are more fools so the votes go to fools...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 12:59
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Mosquito

Democracy is weird, i dont find it good that vote of someone stupid has the same weight as vote of someone clever. The votes of people who are better educated should have more weight than votes of those who are not educated. Those who pay higher taxes should also have more votes than those who pay lower taxes or who pay no tax at all.  Contribution of individuals to the commonwealth should determine their political rights while affcourse in face of civil and criminal law all the people should be equal.

Yes, i think the same.. it is quite weird that anyone, fools and clevers can vote and usually there are more fools so the votes go to fools...

But do you think that a person should have the right to be more effective on the voting precedure just because he earns more money, or had more education opportunities than others? I think the equality of opportunity should be the first thing to be provided in a fair democracy, if there really is equality btw all citizens.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 13:22
Yes, I think that equality is unfair...
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 14:02
but is it fair that those who dont work but get monay for free from goverment have the same right to decide how the state will spent monay as those who pay the highest taxes (in some european countries there are even 50% high direct taxes).
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2005 at 14:10
I think, and I also think it's been proven that a Dictator/Monarch figure always gets a lot more done, look at Germany though I hate Hitler look how quickly he put germany back on its feet. look how quickly Japanmodernized and became and island empire after the emperor took power back. Look at Stalin as he transformed USSR into a Industrial power. I know these were dictators not monarchs but yeah, if you're country is already modernized ot the bone and doesnt need anything else, then sure whynot a democracy.Republic whatever, however I think if a country is down it needs someone to take full control and do something quick.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2005 at 11:56
Ah a nice reply from Sarmata. just what I thought someone will say: that monarchs/dictators get the economy/military side of the country back up. But why is that? Because they are definate that they were elected and none else have any rights...???...
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