Devshirme

I am sure this topic has been covered but it has been a long time.

Article by yours truly- me!

Devshirme:
One institution of such oppression practiced by the Turks was called Devshirme, or the practice of recruiting the best and brightest children, usually males, from Christian families, and forcing them to convert to Islam. These children were trained in the Sultan’s civil service, or they become part of an elite fighting force known as the Janissaries. From very inception of this institution the Christian population grievously resented the abduction of their children.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2010/09/devshirme-muslim-scourge-on-christians.html#more

Edited by eaglecap - 29-Sep-2010 at 19:58

they weren't just fighting force and they were not usually, totally men. yes some children became general or commander but some of them just artists

Originally posted by Ollios they weren't just fighting force and they were not usually, totally men. yes some children became general or commander but some of them just artists<span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps"></span></span>

Yes, a certain % of them ended up in civil service rather than as a janissary.

It doesn't sound that way. That boy could one day run the country

Originally posted by Don Quixote I cannot be positive about Dervishme, being a Bulgarian.

firstly Zdrasti, I don't want it from you. however just remember that "history analyzes in own geographic place and time period". This is my high school teacher's words at the first class of history lesson.

Originally posted by Don Quixote I cannot see it as anything good

Sorry but this view is so ethnic.

I am telling you as a turk whose family originated bulgarian turk, goods side of devsirhme; many architecture, musical or literary work which were created by devsirhmed people who was in enderun. they contributed world heritage. these people couldn't find same education in their society.

Originally posted by eaglecap I don't deny this but overall this practice created more resentment than anything. The worse thing for these Christian families was to have a son taken from them and then forced to convert to Islam. There were some who remained secret Christians and even nominated a fellow janissary to lead the services like a Priest. I don’t think you can deny it caused more harm than good to the Christians of the Balkans. I do believe it helped spark the Greek revolution even though this institution had died long before. I am sure there were many other factors as well.

of cource the assimilasion is bad, whenever happens or wherever happens. I don't argue that. However just looking on christian families side is not fair to make a decision about devshirme system. in many years, in many empires most of local people who were assimilated, weren't exactly accepted by their own sovereign nations as a aristocrat or noble. However in ottoman sample, in many years just devshirmed people accepted in enderun where was highest education place in ottoman empire and educated students for being high goverment officers. The main question is why one country choose minorities instead of own sovereign nation for high goverment positions? this perpective can not just explain with an assimilasion or for pressing minority societies.




Edited by Ollios - 31-Aug-2011 at 17:13

Originally posted by Ollios Originally posted by Don Quixote I cannot be positive about Dervishme, being a Bulgarian. firstly Zdrasti, I don't want it from you. however just remember that "history analyzes in own geographic place and time period". This is my high school teacher's words at the first class of history lesson. Originally posted by Don Quixote I cannot see it as anything good Sorry but this view is so ethnic. I am telling you as a turk whose family originated bulgarian turk, goods side of devsirhme; many architecture, musical or literary work which were created by devsirhmed people who was in enderun. they contributed world heritage. these people couldn't find same education in their society.

History realizes in it's own space, yes, this means that people shouldn't go and shoot each other over some century old event; but history always have as many faces as many POV there are; and there were always winners and losers. What was good for the winner, the Ottoman Empire, was bad for the Bulgarian culture, in the eternal dichotomy of life.
Of course it is an ethnic view, so what? I'm an ethnic person first, then an international one. Actually everyone is a ethnic person first, since everyone is raised in the milieu of a certain culture, that is carried by a certain ethnos, and what one is raised with forms him/her as a person.

I don't doubt that there were positive sides of the Dervishme for the Ottoman Empire, but it didn't do anything good for the Bulgarian culture, did it now? All that Bulgarian people achieved in the Ottoman Empire as Ottomans is credited to the Ottoman Empire, not to the Bulgarian culture, no? - This is genetic modifying, this is what it is How do you now if those people couldn't find the same education in their our culture, it their own culture would be allowed to develop itself? How would you feel if someone come and take you kids and you now will will never see them anymore; your girls to become someone's sex toys, and your boys soldiers that would come and beat you down one day?

Was it good when the communists forbid the Bulgarian Turks to speak Turkish in public, and changed their names? Wasn't, right; why should the Ottomans assimilating the blossom of Bulgarian youth be good either? Why should I as a Bulgarian be seeing as positive that my co-patriots were used for the pleasure and enrichment of whoever subjected them; and their own culture is never given credit for what they accomplished?

I'm not going to argue over this with you, this is a topic on which I can flair mighty high very fast; so you keep your opinion, I keep mine. Of course you will see positive sides in the Devishme since your culture profited from it - mine lost from it, I don't see anything positive, nor I will ever see such.


Edited by Don Quixote - 31-Aug-2011 at 23:06

Originally posted by Ollios Originally posted by Don Quixote history always have as many faces as many POV there are; and there were always winners and losers. What was good for the winner, the Ottoman Empire, was bad for the Bulgarian culture, in the eternal dichotomy of life. "If there is any looser, how does winning help?" turkish slow-pop song Originally posted by Don Quixote you keep your opinion, I keep mine. what did you mean with this? If we don't share our ideas or our knowledge, what does this forum mean? with our conversation and my later research, i have some ideas about you and bulgarian opinion about devshirme and ottoman period in bulgaria and also I have learnt these things *Basil 2 (bulgar slayer), i have no idea about bulgarian and byzantion wars were heavy as were in real *ottoman harem was similar with byzantine harem *more thing about enderun *and also cultural effects of devshirme on bulgarians (blood tax)

I didn't get this about "how the winning helps"
You didn't hurt me, bro, I just prefer to let you keep your opinion and respect it, as I hope you will respects mine - I just don't want to go in a bloody war to the death, or suspension, with you over it /I have been widely known to wage on exactly this subject/. This doesn't mean that I will refuse learning, but that I'd rather don't fight you over something that is very dependent on our different POVs.
To return your jest as the pipe of piece I propose a song from my favorite Turkish group:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTWHDChQdGY&feature=fvsr