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What happend to the Byzantine graves around ...

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eaglecap View Drop Down
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What happend to the Byzantine graves around ...
    Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 20:50
....Istanbul/Constantinople?
I really did not think about looking for them but having the sickness called the wonder-lust I went all over Istanbul. I saw a lot of Turkish grave sites; both old and new. But, I do not recall seeing any graves from the Byzantine period. It could be I just was not looking but with all the places I visited I don't see how I could have missed them. What happened to these graves? Were they dug up or just built over or did I just miss them?
Please no Turkish/Greek brawls- be peaceful!!

I would have loved to have visited such a site and honored any possible ancestors who could be buried there. I did see some modern Greek graves on the Princess Islands but I mean Byzantine.


another question- are these banner adds becoming more specific to your area. I have one about Kayak in nearby Tucson, Arizona- ????


Edited by eaglecap - 13-Mar-2009 at 20:52
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 03:29
Older türkish graves are generally at garden of mosques( You can find graves of ottoman sultans) or older graveyards. If I am not wrong, There is armenian, greek and jewish graveyard in istanbul but not sure, It they have more than 500 year past.
 
Infact, I can find much more old graveyard in my village at trabzon. So most probably, Turkish graves also destroyed at istanbul but I am not sure, when or how. Graves are generally accepted as sacred. So, most of turks will evade to built their home over graves. 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 20:10
Originally posted by Mortaza

Older türkish graves are generally at garden of mosques( You can find graves of ottoman sultans) or older graveyards. If I am not wrong, There is armenian, greek and jewish graveyard in istanbul but not sure, It they have more than 500 year past.
 

Infact, I can find much more old graveyard in my village at trabzon. So most probably, Turkish graves also destroyed at istanbul but I am not sure, when or how. Graves are generally accepted as sacred. So, most of turks will evade to built their home over graves. 


I am sure with development a lot of grave sites were removed or built over like here. I am thinking about graves sites previous to 1453 and beyond. It would be creepy walking through a site with the possibility of an ancestor being buried there. I did not make it to Trabzon but I wanted to go there. It is a long ferry trip from Istanbul or train trip. Someday when I return to Turkiye I will go there.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2009 at 19:13
By accident I found out what could have happened to the Byzantine graves. I pulled out of storage one of my many plastic tote containers and found an issue of “Greek American Magazine” dated 2007. It has an article titled “The Popes visit to Turkey…Did we do enough” by Gregory Pappas.
I clipped a portion of the article that gets to the point:
The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not permitted to own property; thus it owns none of the churches under its religious jurisdiction, Turkish authorities have confiscated houses, apartment buildings, schools, monasteries and lands there were once owned by the
The Ecumenical Patriarchate; the state seized the Patriarchate’s 36 cemeteries which are now the property of various legal subdivisions of the city of Istanbul. Page 09

I am not sure if any of these gravesites were contemporary or if any go back to the Byzantine period or pre-1453 but this is what could have happened to the ancient graveyards. I cannot assume that any were Byzantine which would take more research and I would probably have to contact the Patriarchate’s office in Istanbul. I do not recall any Turkish graves in Athens so they could have faced the same fate since both cities have expanded so much over the decades. I would not doubt that some Turkish graves in Istanbul were exhumed because of development pressures, it has happened in the USA

What has happened has happen so please do not turn this into a Greek/Turk brawl. I do believe any lands that are still undeveloped should be returned to the Ecumenical Patriarchate and compensation should be given for the land already developed but that is only an opinion. I wonder if the bodies were exhumed and moved or simply built over. If they exhumed them then were did they relocate them? In the countryside or the bottom of the Marmara Sea? This is a serious question and not meant as an attack on Turks, most of whom I respect. This could be a hot topic now so please be civil about it.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 13:46
It's all the Turks fault again! LOL I'm joking ofcourse!

I saw recently some pics of new excavations in a Turkish newspaper. I'm pretty sure you can see graves etc everywhere, as long as you know where to look.


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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2009 at 20:14
Hello eaglecap
 
You are making a fuss out of nothing. European countries did exactly what the Turkish government did and yet nobody is making a fuss. There are many mosques and Islamic graves in Greece in general and Athena especially that faced a similar fate and I don't see you talking about these events.
 

Plus many Islamic graves in Turkey, old graves as old as the Byzantine ones, were distroyed by the turkish government for developement reasons (which is by the way perfectly legitimate according to Islamic customs) and you haven't rased this point either.
 
If we are going to respect old burial grounds and graves no developement whatsoever would be possible because, and especially in a historic city like Istanbul.
 
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 02:01
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello eaglecap
 

You are making a fuss out of nothing. European countries did exactly what the Turkish government did and yet nobody is making a fuss. There are many mosques and Islamic graves in Greece in general and Athena especially that faced a similar fate and I don't see you talking about these events.

 

Plus many Islamic graves in Turkey, old graves as old as the Byzantine ones, were distroyed by the turkish government for developement reasons (which is by the way perfectly legitimate according to Islamic customs) and you haven't rased this point either.

 

If we are going to respect old burial grounds and graves no developement whatsoever would be possible because, and especially in a historic city like Istanbul.

 

AL-Jassas


Maybe they should!! The article was in Greek American so I would suggest some people do care about church property. It is not important to you because they are not your ancestors! I did talk about the lack of Turkish graves in Athens and maybe they faced the same fate but in both cases I was not looking for these graves. Anyone in Athens know more about this? In both cases the dead should be respected but the same thing happens even in the USA although by law the bodies have to be relocated. I do not know what the laws are about this in Greece or Turkey.

The confiscation of this land went against the treaty of Lausanne and really was out right theft but what is done is done and it might work both ways.

As old well I doubt that since Byzantine history is much older.
Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 06:36
Well, Al Jassas has a point. I don't know about Athens (which by the way, was not very big in the pre-revolutionary years), but here in Thessaloniki non-christian graveyards have been sweeped for development. Especially the jewish cemetary, which supposedly held 500,000 bodies has now been built as a university campus, and only a small patch of land is saved today as a cemetary. I think, the authorities relocated the skeletons they found.

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2009 at 08:48
Hello eaglecap
 
There was a muslim quarter in Istanbul since the 8th century with a grave yard and several (not one) mosques. Now that quarter was completely demolished by time and probably the only relic is Ayub mosque and this is too sacred to be taken down of course.
 
As for church property, while I do agree that confiscations are wrong but one has to taken into account developement and the size of the community. If as Xristar mentioned we were to apply those agreements while there is no one who will benifit from them this will impede developement. Thessaloniki was literally owned by Jewish and muslim organizations yet how many jews and muslims are there?
 
It is a normal thing, small and insignificant mosques and even some historically significant ones (like those in Hasankayf) get distroyed all the time in Turkey and elswhere (several mosques sine the time of the prophet here in Saudi Arabia) and while it is sad I think it is worth it, people need to feed themselves and be able to live and work in affordable places.
 
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2012 at 11:02
Originally posted by eaglecap

....Istanbul/Constantinople?
I really did not think about looking for them but having the sickness called the wonder-lust I went all over Istanbul. I saw a lot of Turkish grave sites; both old and new. But, I do not recall seeing any graves from the Byzantine period. It could be I just was not looking but with all the places I visited I don't see how I could have missed them. What happened to these graves? Were they dug up or just built over or did I just miss them? 


Don't you think that, you are just a little bit more sensetive. As you know if people respected pagan temples, there weren't many nice churches as Hagia Sophia. Idea of protecting all byzantine greaves( they should be at least 600-800 years old) ???

I have to agree Xristar and Al Jassas

Originally posted by xristar

here in Thessaloniki non-christian graveyards have been sweeped for development. Especially the jewish cemetary, which supposedly held 500,000 bodies ha


That's quite normal. However I want to help you.

*Byzantine Bruial Chamber in İstanbul
it is 1600 years old and near the Wall of Istanbul. It was found in 1988
http://www.parkeoloji.com/1600-yillik-mezar-odasina-ihanet/ (Turkish)
http://www.fatihhaber.com/index_kralmezari.html (just photoes)

*People were going to pray a cemetery in Erdek/Balıkesir. Even local soldiers were making cerenomies in there. They had thought that ıt was a cemetery for dead soilder of WW1 but they noticed the reality. That is a byzantine cemetery. Big smile
http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=288950
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