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The Power of Prayers?

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JanusRook View Drop Down
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Power of Prayers?
    Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:13
At Northman's request I have decided to join this discussion.



She did finally get a new heart, but on July 17'th, Joyce lost her battle and passed on.

...

Obviously, the prayers were not heard.... and it left me wondering about a few things.


- Wouldn't God have heard all these prayers - how big a cry does it take?

God has heard every prayer, every want, every thanks that has ever been uttered, yet hearing a prayer, no matter how loud or loving can make him change his divine plan. To give an example we are to God as children are to us. A child will cry and beg to us for an ice cream cone for example, yet we know it isn't in the best interest of the child to get the ice cream so we deny the request. God knows that sometimes it is not in the best interest of the person for prayers to be answered. It might seem a bit cold and callous to us, but that is only because we do not know his divine plan. For instance what if by surviving from the transplant meant that 5 years down the road Joyce would be in far more pain than ever before for a far longer period. Perhaps it was divine mercy that ended her life.

Also lets assume that she lived but was in constant pain, then we would think that God was cruel and teasing us with the hope of life but a life of suffering. However if it was by that reasoning then any suffering in the world should negate the idea that God watches over us. It is important to note that suffering, pain and death in this world are not caused by God but by man and man's original sin. It is due to that fact, and I would argue necessary sin, that we all are partially removed from God and it is only through our belief that we can join with God.

It is important to note that even though Joyce's body has died her soul and the souls of all of us live on forever in the hereafter. Biological living is only a small portion of our true lives, and even though we feel her loss from us now, we can console ourselves with the knowledge that we will see her again, and in fact when we do see her she will know no pain, suffering or death for she will be in Christ's kingdom.


- If there is any powers in praying at all, why weren't all these prayers heard only concerning one person - a little girl from a religious home, who never had a vicked thought in her head?

This is an incorrect line of thought although a very common one. Suffering is not a punishment for sins, suffering is punishment for the sin (original sin). Which we all carry, even the smallest and most innocent of us. It is arrogant and prideful to imagine that we as humans can intercede as equals with God, even to think that we can quantify ourselves by addition (i.e. one human doesn't equal God but one million might). One man's prayer has as much weight with God as the prayers of a million.


- How can believers in praying continue to do so, - how can they pray for themselves or their close family after experiencing incidents like this?

God is not a magic genie. He does not listen to us and deliver "gifts" to those "deserving". God merely loves us and implores us to love each other, that is all of his children. You do not pray for things that you cannot do yourself, you pray for aid in things that you can do. Like for instance the prayers should not be to save Joyce and make her healthy or I'll stop believing, God does not bargain with us. Also in prayer it is important to note that we as mortals are naturally flawed and require God's grace to truly understand the world around us. This is why we must accept God's decisions as final and binding, even if we ourselves don't agree with the outcome.

Also, one should not just pray for the health and safety of family members alone but for all people. In fact we should also pray for the good fortunes and health of our most hated enemies, perhaps even before our own families. Not because doing this is pleasing to God and might influence him to aid our families (nothing can influence God). But because in doing so we become less flawed by our human nature and more aware of God's divine truth, so that we are able to handle events in our lives better.


...



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JanusRook View Drop Down
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 23:44
Now as to whether the Power of Prayer works....

There have been several studies to see if prayer can affect anything. And mostly it has shown mixed results. Here are a couple of studies I have found:


The above headline is the title of a story from the November 6, 2001 online issue of WebMD. The article starts off by reporting on two recent studies involving the use of prayer in medicine. In one of these recent studies, women at an in vitro fertilization clinic had higher pregnancy rates when total strangers were praying for them. In the other study the findings showed that people undergoing risky cardiovascular surgery have fewer complications when they are the focus of prayer groups.

Rogerio A. Lobo, MD, the chair of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Columbia University School of Medicine in New York City, published his study which appeared in the September issue of the Journal of Reproductive Medicine.  The fertilization research was conducted at a hospital in Seoul, Korea, and found a doubling of the pregnancy rate among women who were prayed for. 

The study involved 199 women who were undergoing in vitro fertility treatments at a hospital in Seoul, Korea, during 1998 and 1999. Half the women were randomly assigned to have one of several Christian prayer groups in the U.S., Canada, and Australia pray for them. A photograph of each patient was given to "her" prayer group. While one set of prayer groups prayed directly for the women, a second set of prayer groups prayed for the first set, and a third group prayed for both groups.

"We were very careful to control this as rigorously as we could," states Dr. Lobo.  "Neither the women nor their medical caregivers knew about the study, or that anyone was praying for them.  We deliberately set it up in an unbiased way. That meant not informing patients they were being prayed for, so it would not influence the women's outcome." 

The results of the study were that the women in the "prayed for" group became pregnant twice as often as the other women. "We were not expecting to find a positive result," says Lobo. "Researchers have re-analyzed the data several times, to detect any discrepancies, but have been unable to find any," he says.

-Source

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.

Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for 59 percent suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group 18 percent suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.

At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.

The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.

Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.

"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."

-Source

---------------------------

So basically, you can make our own assumptions based on the data, but from what I gathered praying for those you don't know and don't know they are being prayed for increases the likelihood of prayers being answered. Perhaps this is because by praying for complete strangers we are becoming better aware of God's divine plan.
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longshanks31 View Drop Down
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 22:53
a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
long live the king of bhutan
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 02:26
Originally posted by longshanks31

a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.
This-post-of-yours-made-no-sense-at-all,-and-I-think-you-are-an-idiot,-but-I-am-so-not-going-to-drop-down-to-your-level-and-admit-it-to-your-face
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2007 at 03:29
Originally posted by Northman


Basically, what you are saying is, The Allmighty God created a divine plan called faith, and nothing can change that plan - everything is pre-planned and everything happens because God decided it to happen way back.
So when we pray to God, its solely a selfish desire to ease our own pain and to thank Him, that His divine plan gave us food and allowed us to live this far.

We should sit idle and do nothing (not even pray) to help anyone in distress or danger. That would be to interfer with His divine plan and in best case it wil be ignored, but might even displease Him that we are so arrogant to question His divine plan - to ask for alternatives.

So I guess this also answers my last question - Billions of people continues to pray for their loved ones in spite of not being heard, because they don't understand this?

No.
What is important to understand is that God is not there for the well being and desires of human beings. He has his own plans, and we must understand that. We must also understand that our free will is a part of that plan. God will grant our prayers if he desires, and will refuse to grant them if he desires.
God is the boss, if he does us a favour be grateful and thankful and hopefully he'll do you another when you need it.
@Omar
Why on earth did you stop praying for favors because your prayers were heard? Wasn't that what you hoped for?
If I had those powers, I would make another prayer to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, deceases, exploitation etc. etc.
Don't be scared - help the children.

Because praying for favours I don't need is greedy, I don't have those powers, I got a favour. Praying "to help the millions of children all over the world who suffer and die from hunger, diseases, exploitation etc. etc." is downright arrogant. I am in no position ask for a favour for a person I have never met, and never will meet. It is possible that I may ask for help in helping said people, but I'll do it myself and not ask for magic. Who am I to suggest that God made a mistake?
Originally posted by longshanks31

a prayer plus an empty sack is worth an empty sack.

You can do alot with an empty sack.
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