Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Did Russia attack Estonia?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 789
Author
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did Russia attack Estonia?
    Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 12:47
Bodies were indeed desecrated, and only then moved to cemetry. Some of them moved back to Russia by relatives.
 
I dont want to continue the argument about the meaning of WWII for different countries. But from my own experience I can tell you that not every American knows when was the victory day in Europe, while you would never find a Russian person who doesn't know when was the victory day in Europe (this is just an example).
 
Anyway, there is still no definite proof that the attack was sponsored by the Russian government.
 
Please check this out.
 
 

Experts doubt Russian government launched DDoS attacks

 
By Bill Brenner, Senior News Writer
18 May 2007 | SearchSecurity.com

RSS FEEDS:  Security Wire Daily News
Add%20to%20Google
If you were the Russian government and wanted to launch an attack against Estonian authority Web sites ... would you really use your own PCs to do it?
Graham Cluley,
senior technology consultant, Sophos

Some experts are dismissing speculation earlier this week that hackers sponsored by the Russian government were behind a series of blistering distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attacks in the Baltic country of Estonia.

The attacks left Web sites for Estonia's prime minister, banks and schools in disarray and some observers pointed fingers at Russia, given its apparent anger over Estonia's decision to remove a bronze statue of a Soviet-era soldier that was part of a World War II memorial.

But information security experts now say it's very unlikely this was a case of one government launching a coordinated cyberattack against another. It was more likely the work of smaller organized groups in control of hijacked computers from around the world, they said.

"Attributing a distributed denial-of-service attack like this to a government is hard," Johannes Ullrich, chief research officer of the Bethesda, Md.-based SANS Internet Storm Center (ISC), said in an email exchange. "It may as well be a group of bot herders showing 'patriotism,' kind of like what we had with Web defacements during the US-China spy-plane crisis [in 2001]."

Hillar Aarelaid, chief security officer for Estonia's Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT), said in published reports Thursday that most of the affected Web sites have been restored to normal service. He also expressed skepticism that the attacks were from the Russian government, noting that Estonians were also divided on whether it was right to remove the statue. And since the attacks began, investigators have found evidence that while Russian hackers may be involved, malicious activity also originated from computers in the U.S., Brazil, Canada and Vietnam.

DDoS attacks:
Can service providers prevent DDoS attacks? The results of a DDoS attack can be crippling, but what are service providers doing about the threat? In this SearchSecurity.com Q&A, Ed Skoudis explains how innovative ISPs are raising the bar -- and malicious hackers are jumping right over it.

Network-based attacks: he second tip in our series, "How to assess and mitigate information security threats," excerpted from Chapter 3: The Life Cycle of Internet Access Protection Systems of the book The Shortcut Guide to Protecting Business Internet Usage.

Will the botnet threat continue? Is the botnet threat here to stay? In this SearchSecurity.com Q&A, information security threat expert Ed Skoudis explains how these money-making machines will become a greater threat in 2007.

"I think it is extremely unlikely that the attacks are being sponsored by the Russian government," Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant for UK-based security software company Sophos, said in an email exchange. "The fact that DDoS attacks may be coming from Russian authority computers does not necessarily mean that the Russian authorities have endorsed the attacks. Indeed, it's quite possible that these are PCs which have been taken over by remote hackers."

There have been many instances in the past where hackers have gained access to poorly-defended government and military computers in order to cause mischief, Cluley added.

"If you were the Russian government and wanted to launch an attack against Estonian authority Web sites -- knowing that the world would take a keen interest -- would you really use your own PCs to do it?" Cluley said. "It is quite possible that this is a small group of politically motivated hackers who have a grievance against the Estonian authorities who have taken remote control of PCs to attack Estonian Web sites."

While that may be the case, industry experts said the incident is yet another example of what can happen if governments don't do more to secure their IT infrastructure. The U.S., for example, has come under scrutiny for not doing more to harden its systems.

When a White House ID theft task force released recommendations to better protect people from online fraud last month, for example, the Cyber Security Industry Alliance (CSIA) said the document was short on guidelines to help federal agencies address their own security shortcomings.

The U.S. government learned how vulnerable its systems can be two years ago when it learned of ongoing attacks that were eventually dubbed Titan Rain. In those attacks, Chinese Web sites targeted computer networks in the Defense Department and other U.S. agencies, compromising hundreds of unclassified networks. Though classified information wasn't taken, officials worried that even small, seemingly insignificant bits of information can paint a valuable picture of an adversary's strengths and weaknesses when pulled together.

Ullrich doesn't believe government networks are being defended well enough, given the steady stream of news reports about compromised networks. But, he added, defending against the kind of attack Estonia suffered is no easy task.

"Defending against a DDoS is very hard if you are running a large government network across globally-shared media," he said. "The best defense against a DDoS is a contingency plan. [Governments] have to plan for widespread network disruption. Once the attack is under way, critical records such as phone lists may no longer be reachable." Any good disaster recovery plan should cover these scenarios, he said.

John LaCour, a CISSP and director of product management for San Francisco-based security firm MarkMonitor Inc., said it's equally important for private enterprises to prepare for these kinds of attacks. After all, he said, companies remain a bigger target than government systems.

"Virtually all American businesses are connected to the Internet so there's an endless opportunity to go after private companies," he said. "But while the government is on the Internet, classified systems are more restricted and guarded. Often, cyberattacks are initiated by political groups who are not necessarily state sponsored. As part of their method of operation, it's about targeting the commercial interests."

Should there be escalating cyberattacks against first-world countries, he said, attacks against commercial entities will also be more prevalent. Therefore, enterprises need to have a response plan.

"Often, organizations won't be able to defend against it on their own so they should have a coordinated battle plan with their ISPs and others," LaCour said. "The big problem with DDoS attacks is the potential for collateral damage beyond the prime target."




Edited by Sarmat12 - 14-Jul-2007 at 13:55
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 16:38
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

The Poland incident, if I remember correctly, was proceded by politics that Russia didn't like, and all of a sudden made a problem.
 
I tell you what were Russia's opinion on the question. Now Poles realize that it is better for them to fit Russia's requirements than to make fuss about all that. Very soon (if not already, I am not aware) thy will be in Russian market again.
 
 
On the Georgia case, one that I'm admittedly ignorant on, do this 30% of Russians also hold Georgian citizenship, or are they just living there? Because as far as I'm concerned, when they are in the borders of a nation they belong to and have dual citizenship, then they are citizens of that country first and thus the responcibilty of that country.
It just sounds like a cheap excuse to get any leverage and make up an easy motivation. If they are choosing to living in a country they have citizenship to, then they are the responcibilty of that country first. Unless Russia believes those with their citizenship can't make choices for themselves.
You forget the situation -- how were modern states of Russian Federation and Georgia  created. After fall of SU people faced a problem which citizenship should they choose. Some chose Georgian citizenship some Russian. The thing is that those people are not Georgians and do not want to have anything with them -- they are different nationalities -- Abhazians and Osetins. Thus they do not see any responsibilities toward Georgian state.  And never had actually. They made choice for themselves and actions of Russia is not cheap excuse. It is actually politics of peacefull solutions of the problem with (note!) territorial unity of those lands with Georgia. If you wish you can make a paralel with Serbia-Kosovo with the difference that Russia supports territorial Unity of both Serbia and Georgia whereas Western World applies double standarts -- Kosovars must have independence but not Abhazians and Osetins.
 
 
And even if the whole Poland thing was as you say it, that still doesn't disprove my case about the total overreaction over a Statue, which thew whole post revolves around.
 
I agree that in Estonian case it is overreaction from the side of Russia.


Edited by Anton - 14-Jul-2007 at 16:42
.
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 19:02
Originally posted by Sarmat12

But Estonian officials knew very well what they were doing, more over they decided to do it just before May 9, which is celebrated in Russia as the victory day.


If you didn't know, Estonia isn't Russia. Victory Day isn't celebrated in Estonia.

Originally posted by Sarmat12

What they did they dismantled the statute dedicated to the Soviet Soldiers who died in the WWII in Estonia fighting the NAZIS. Moreover, they dig out the bodies of the Russian soldiers burried behind that monument, cause they were saying that there were some thugs not soldiers burried in that grave. Later they made tests on the bodies to verify if they really were those, who they were supposed to be. All this procedures were disgusting. The descendant of one Soviet officer burried there, is now suing the Estonian government in the European court of human rights to compensate all the moral harm caused by these action.


Soviet propaganda. Those soldiers were no where near of being killed by Germans. The city was deserted by Germans when the Soviets took it. How could their soldiers have been killed there then?


Back to Top
Kalevipoeg View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Estonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1458
  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 19:11
"Bodies were indeed desecrated, and only then moved to cemetry. Some of them moved back to Russia by relatives."

Define "desecrated", bodies have been re-buried for endless times. 
There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge...
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 21:53
Originally posted by rider



Soviet propaganda. Those soldiers were no where near of being killed by Germans. The city was deserted by Germans when the Soviets took it. How could their soldiers have been killed there then?


 
I didn't write they were killed in Tallin. Don't you think that the Soviet Army didn't have any casualties in Estonia?
 
Or what, if they were not killed by Germans, who killed them? Estonians in Tallin? It changes the whole picture.
 
Please explain me the what happened to those soldiers according to Estonian sources.
 
And I didn't write that the victory day is celebrated in Estonia, I wrote it about Russia. But I think Estonians perfectly know the meaning of the Victory day for Russia. Am I not correct?
 
Thank you.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 14-Jul-2007 at 22:04
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 22:05
Originally posted by Kalevipoeg

"Bodies were indeed desecrated, and only then moved to cemetry. Some of them moved back to Russia by relatives."

Define "desecrated", bodies have been re-buried for endless times. 
 
By desecrating I mean performing of the tests on them.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 16:35
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I didn't write they were killed in Tallin. Don't you think that the Soviet Army didn't have any casualties in Estonia?
 
Or what, if they were not killed by Germans, who killed them? Estonians in Tallin? It changes the whole picture.
 
Please explain me the what happened to those soldiers according to Estonian sources.
 
And I didn't write that the victory day is celebrated in Estonia, I wrote it about Russia. But I think Estonians perfectly know the meaning of the Victory day for Russia. Am I not correct?
 
Thank you.


According to our sources, from what I remember, a widespread knowledge of how and who those were in those graves was such - they were killed by the Soviets for some crimes (Soviet soldiers killed those soldiers and then placed them into the grave)...
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2007 at 18:43
Originally posted by rider



According to our sources, from what I remember, a widespread knowledge of how and who those were in those graves was such - they were killed by the Soviets for some crimes (Soviet soldiers killed those soldiers and then placed them into the grave)...
 
I dont think it's true; I read a long article about the son of one officer who was buried there. The officer was killed in battle and his son is going to sue Estonian government now in the European court of human rights.
 
At leasy that information looked very credible...


Edited by Sarmat12 - 17-Jul-2007 at 18:56
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 789

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.070 seconds.