The orgins of the Aryans?

The Sanskrit connection:

 

Sir William Jones (1746 �1794) the Top English philologist and student of ancient India well-versed in more than 20 languages including Greek, Latin, Arabic and Sanskrit states,

 

 

This could put a halt for yours discussion over the root of Sanskrit. No higher quality of research has been done before/after over the same. Moreover the influence of foreign languages in the native dialects was a common factor world over because of trade and conquest is negligible here.

 

Sanskrit has very plain st. root with other indigenous sub-continent languages and these indigenous languages themselves give more scope to illustrate their interconnect-ability (as below) whereas comparing Sanskrit with greek, latin or with other baltic/celtic/Slavic languages could be much like visualizing.

 

Bramhi > Grandha > Tamil/Malayam/Sinhala

Bramhi > Devanagiri > Sanskrit > Hindi

 

Here, you can check for the sameness in the script of these below vowels/constants of Hindi with Tamil, ha, haa, maa, pa, ta, la, ka, cha, knya, na, tha, nah, yaa, ra etc. The vowel/constant series followed in Tamil and Hindi is very same. To the most the pronounsation of vowels/constants are alike in both languages.

Originally posted by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Kindly read Leon Poliakov's "The Aryan Myth", which gives the details of the stand taken by Europeans on the origin of antiquity of man in the Ganges Vallery civilization etc., initially and then changing according to their vested interests.   This proves as how ideology mars real historical research in finding out truth.   Now, they left India, but, still the problem haunts and daunts Indians and is also exploited by historoians forgetting the history.

Did you not bother to read the last few posts? There is nobody promoting "THE ARYAN MYTH" here or "THE ARYAN INVASION THEORY" or THE anything in this thread. So could you kindly stop arguing with imaginary characters?

We already know what that book is about and nobody wants to discuss Max Mueller's Aryan Invasion Theory which he himself withdrew. Since nobody is promoting that theory you dont need to spam this thread disputing it. We are looking for facts here, not challenging myths. Get it?

Originally posted by Leonardo 2. How do you explain the racial "europoid", or "caucasoid" as you prefer,  traits of many Indian upper class people?

Dunno about questions 1 and 3 questions but as for question 2 there are genetic markers to support these "Europid" traits in Indian upper classes too. I have a theory, the intelligencia of ancient punjab/nwfp in ancient pakistan was comprised of the Brahmin Caste. This brahmin caste can also be viewed as a "professor caste" because they had an almost total monopoly on education in ancient vedic society. Vedic hinduism ended up becoming the dominant way of life in northern india as well as southern india.  This "Brahmanistic brotherhood" was a sort of a very powerful, educated and of course fanatic clan of warrior monks in ancient pakistan. It was next to impossible to become one of them in their heyday, just as it was impossible to become a Spartan in ancient greece, you just couldn't as it was hereditory at that time.

This clan of brahmans worked hand in hand with another clan, the kshatriya who were organized similarly however unlike the brahmin intelligencia the kshatriyas were to specialize in warfare primarily and intellectual pursuits were secondary since they were primarily to be left to the brahmins.

Well anyway these two clans, along with a third mercantile clan over the centuries migrated eastwards and southwards and set up little colonies and outposts. Their system basically outlasted and outperformed all the other systems they came across, there were wars and mergings in many places and even though there was a lot of integration the intelligencia obviously retained a heavy genetic component from where they originated which was different than the rest of India especially the east and the south. Now over the centuries and millenia in fact, because the way of life of these people were so different than those of the places they migrated to in eastern and southern india there were conflicts and wars. Many new people were integrated into the more established brahmin/kshatriya  heirarchy as allies but of course there were many many people who stiffly resisted this intrusion into their system of existence. Those resistors were attacked and condemned to servant status. A newly created "condemned enemy" status. The untouchables.

So anyway, thats my theory as to why you find europid traces in decreasing amounts the further south and east you go in India today among the brahmin and kshatriya castes...because the original Vedics were from the punjab/nwfp area and they have a different appearance than the rest of India. Had this vedic phenomena started in southern India you would see the opposite effect. Obviously geopraphy has a lot to do with it and left its mark. The further away from the original vedic homeland you got...the more "thinned out" the numbers of Brahmin warrior priests was compared to the local population from which there were gradual infusions.

Originally posted by Leonardo Simple questions for Indian forumers: 1. Where do you believe was located the "Urheimat" of Indoeuropean languages"?

This question is hard to answer for me, mostly because i don't know the age of the IE branch of language. Mostly, i believe the origin to be in the Iranian region. However, as long as you are talking about the origin of the language, i guess any number of theories could hold.

2. How do you explain the racial "europoid", or "caucasoid" as you prefer,  traits of many Indian upper class people?

I think the reason so many Indian people doubt this is that they are not able to visually see this. I find the same problem. The priest at my local temple is as black as it gets. Similarly, my family, telugu brahmins, are traditionally very dark. It is only because of my fairer maternal grandfather that i am not totally dark.

The reasons that the genetic tests show is because of the way they are conducted. The hypothesis stated before the tests are conducted is that fairer people belong to the upperclass. Now, for a fair (no pun intended) test to be taken, both equal amounts of fair skinned and dark skinned peoples must be tested. However, there are several self-proclaimed upperclassmen who are fair, such as the Rajputs. Though the warrior class is no more, the remnants remain in castes such as the Rajputs. Looking towards the southern part of India, however, there is no such counter part. So, amongst the darker people of south india, the only truly "upperclass" people are the brahmins, which constitute a small percentage of the local population. Now, the test is conducted. The skin color, and nose shape, and etc is taken. Looking at the fairer skin peoples, they come from either a tiny percentage of brahmins, or a large portion of self-proclaimed upperclass people. Looking at the darker skinned people, there is only the tiny percentage of brahmins. So, naturally, it would seem that the upperclass is fairer, etc.

To make things worse, there is no clear hierarchy of castes. Is a kayastha more upperclass than a rajput? There are now hunderds of castes. How do you think the castes are ranked upper and lowed, especially with preconceived notions of fairness and upper class?

Let me ask you, what constitutes upperclass?

3. What do you think of the work of Tilak: "The arctic home in the Vedas" http://www.vaidilute.com/books/tilak/tilak-contents.html ?     Thanks for answers.

I have not read the book, but the premise, that the vedas were written in the Artic regions near the end of the Ice Age, seems like bull.

Originally posted by Decebal Originally posted by pumaaa123 In their respective regions. Theories have been developed stating similarites of Indian languages with Southern African dailects same like of sankrit with Greek/Latin. These similarities possibly have been produced by accident and nothing exits to prove their common source. Moreover there are proper texts documented time to time to tell out the root of today sub continent languages. Start from Mehrgarh Time scripts > Indus Scripts > Vedic Time scipts > Mauyrian/Guptan Time languages > To modern day languages.  Here, Sanskrit evolved during the Vedic Time. The similarity to any outside language be it Europe or Africa could be possibly an accident. You can't possibly be serious.... By accident? When the word roots for all the numbers, for family relations, most body parts and quite a few animals are the same in Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Celtic, etc.? When the grammar is similar?  You will not find one linguist who does not accept the fact that these languages had a common origin.

Yes, its (1746 �1794). Recheck. He had spend good time in Kolkatta, India for the same study.

Edited by pumaaa123 - 13-Jun-2007 at 01:21

Originally posted by pumaaa123 Yes, its (1746 �1794). Recheck. He had spend good time in Kolkatta, India for the same study.