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chessrook1 View Drop Down
Janissary
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Posts: 28 		  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sarmatians
    Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 02:04

Greetings, are the Sarmatians, the ones the Romans use as their foreign auxillary cavalry, are they of Persian, slavic, or central asiatic origin (like the turks). I think I read somewhere that theyre of persian origin. Just want to confirm it. Thanks for any response I get.
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Posts: 290 		  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 02:35
The were originally a group of north Iranian nomads, related to the earlier Scythians.   There may have been a mixture of other peoples in their ranks, especially in the later period.
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Posts: 65 		  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 10:44

chessrook1,

The Sarmations are Iranian peoples, meaning they are not Persian but close.  Different Iranian peoples include Parthians, Bactrians, Persians, Sogdians, Sarmations, etc, and some such as Parthians are closer racially to Persians, but because of geography.

Eventually, many Iranian peoples become  indistinguishable from eachother, so Iranians from Iran and Afghanistan and other areas close by are often called Persian, whether they are from Khorasan (Parthia), Fars (Persia),Gilan (Media), etc, and Sarmations and Scythians become racially adulterated and so peoples living in their domain aren't Iranian anymore. 

Those who are Iranian are also "Persian" now, and you won't, as a rule, find any racial difference between Khorasanis ("Parthians") and Farsis ("Persians") in Iran these days, nor would you have a long time ago.

Roxanne/Roksana/Roshanak, Alexander's sixteen year old "Persian" bride, was from Bactria, so you can see there is little difference.

Hope this helps.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote chessrook1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 17:03

Thanks for that good info. Do you know if their cavalrymen intermarried with Roman Britons where they were stationed? I remember reading on another site which I cant find the link to that through DNA testing, some British people (presumably the Welsh) have foreign ancestry like from the middle east and Mediterranean (other than Roman). Presumably from Roman auxillary troops and legion troops that might have taken on war brides.
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Posts: 65 		  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2004 at 21:29

This is interesting, since Gaelic and Persian have cognates.  However, even if there were enough Sarmatians to effect Briton DNA (something I ted to doubt), they would not be identified as Mediterranean Middle Eastern, if Middle Eastern at all due to their ties to Iran.

So I don't know, but it is interesting.  Please, if you find any more information, say so.

Thanks.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 04:44

There is this possibility that the Welsh are the same Cimmerians (Scythians of southern Russia), we had a discussion with Cymru who is himself a Cymry (Welsh) about the origin of the Welsh.

TRACING THE CYMRY (WELSH): This entirely describes the nature of the word Cymri for Cimmerian means "black" or "dark" - (the Greek word kimeros means a mist or darkness). Homer in his Odyssey described them as living in perpetual darkness. These Cimmerians apparently gave the name to the Black or Cimmerian Sea.

But about the origin of the Saxons, one of the greatest of Anglo-Saxon historians was Mr. Sharon Turner, author of several histories in the first half of the nineteenth century. His most important work, History Of The Anglo-Saxons, was first completed in 1805 and went through several editions. English philologist, Dr. Joseph Bosworth stated, Mr. Turner and Sir Francis Palgraves works must be carefully read by every Anglo-Saxon student... These... are rich sources of information for those who are interested in the Anglo-Saxon language and literature."

Book II, Chapter I "The Origin Of The Saxons" Pages 98-102. Published 1836:

http://www.originofnations.org/old_bi_literature/history_by_ sharon_turner.htm

The Saxons were a German or Teutonic, that is, a Gothic or Scythian tribe; and of the various Scythian nations which have been recorded, the Sakai, or Sacae are the people from whom the descent of the Saxons may be inferred, with the least violation of probability. Sakai-suna, or the sons of the Sakai, abbreviated into Saksun, which is the same sound as Saxon, seems a reasonable etymology of the word Saxon.

 
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Posts: 65 		  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 09:21
I had considered the Anglo-Saxon invasion as a possible cause, since it would provide a linguistic and genetic link to Persians, but could then these findings would not be new.  The way I understand, the people were linked specifically to Middle Easterners, or Mediterraneans.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 14:21
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The Saxons were a German or Teutonic, that is, a Gothic or Scythian tribe; and of the various Scythian nations which have been recorded, the Sakai, or Sacae are the people from whom the descent of the Saxons may be inferred, with the least violation of probability. Sakai-suna, or the sons of the Sakai, abbreviated into Saksun, which is the same sound as Saxon, seems a reasonable etymology of the word Saxon.

 

the Saxons are NOT Sakae, and the Welsh are defiantely NOT Cimmerians ebcause they were destroyed and completely dissapeared therefater ont eh other end of europe... Saxons and Goths are both Germanic/Teutonic tribes, btu Scythians and Sakae in general are completely unrelated to Germanic people.

and BTW, the ethmylogy of Saxon is the traditional Germanic longknife, called seaks or somethign like that.



Edited by Temujin
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Posts: 65 		  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 15:47
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The Saxons were a German or Teutonic, that is, a Gothic or Scythian tribe; and of the various Scythian nations which have been recorded, the Sakai, or Sacae are the people from whom the descent of the Saxons may be inferred, with the least violation of probability. Sakai-suna, or the sons of the Sakai, abbreviated into Saksun, which is the same sound as Saxon, seems a reasonable etymology of the word Saxon.

 

Scythians and Sakae in general are completely unrelated to Germanic people.

 

Scythians and Sakae are the same, and being Aryan, are in fact quite close to Germanic peoples/
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 16:39
Scythians is what the european Sakaes were called, and no, there's no connection between Indo-Iranians and Germanic people other than that both are Indo-Europeans. there is also nothing like Aryans, only those in iran.
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Posts: 65 		  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2004 at 17:19

Okay, so you were talking about a much closer link.  I misinterpreted your statement which I quoted as being ignorant of the Indo-European link that exists between the two.  Sry about that.

 
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Posts: 166 		  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 04:01
Some mounted warriors (of the East origin) appeared in late bronze age in Europe. Artefacts remains Pontic Steppes culture. They became a ruling class among early Celtic societies. Maybe they were the Cimmerians. But they didn't change the language of the early Celts since their number was a little.
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Saki View Drop Down
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Posts: 28 		  Quote Saki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 01:13

Interesting that there are close linguistic ties between small Islands of the Western Isles of Ireland and Islands of the Coast of Croatia with Old Persian. I am not sure whether this is Avestan, Pahlavi or what. Any ideas?

 

See AJ Arbery for further information

 

5000 Sarmatian troops and their families were brought to Britain ( 2nd C AD? ) to guard Hadrians wall from Picts. Their descendents are predominantly located in the Ribble Valley near Preston in Lancashire.



Edited by Saki
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ramin View Drop Down
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Posts: 921 		  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2005 at 01:26
Originally posted by Temujin

Scythians is what the european Sakaes were called, and no, there's no connection between Indo-Iranians and Germanic people other than that both are Indo-Europeans. there is also nothing like Aryans, only those in iran.
True, the discussion of Germanic people being Aryan started I think in the late 19th century, and has been rejected.
"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Posts: 323 		  Quote Scorpian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 18:51
Originally posted by chessrook1

Thanks for that good info. Do you know if their cavalrymen intermarried with Roman Britons where they were stationed? I remember reading on another site which I cant find the link to that through DNA testing, some British people (presumably the Welsh) have foreign ancestry like from the middle east and Mediterranean (other than Roman). Presumably from Roman auxillary troops and legion troops that might have taken on war brides.

 
     
 in 175 AD Marcus Aurelius takes 8000 Lazyg (Sarmations) into Roman service.  5500 of them were taken to Northern Britain and assigned to VI Legion Victrix.  i've read that many took their families with them and upon retirement were granted lands in Cornwall; Wales; North Britain and Amorica. These initial Sarmations displaced the breton occupants of those lands and in time they themselves became classed as celtic britons.
        I reckon Sarmation influence spread to Ireland via Wales at that time.
    In 407 a contingent of Alans (Sarmations) under Goar sided with the Romans and were re-settled in Amorica. The displaced Celtic Britons fleeing Saxon takeover in England intermarried extensively with these Alans.  In my opinion LazyG Sarmation bloodlines and Alan Sarmation bloodlines intermarried for obvious reasons.   (strengthening of position in a hostile world)
               The DNA testing you talk of can be traced back to these earlier LazyG Sarmations who had been granted such lands by the Romans. ie a higher concentration with matching DNA can be found in Wales, Cornwall, North Britain, but more so in Amorica (Brittany) due to the arrival and settlement of the Sarmation Alans. 
             
                
  
       


Edited by Scorpian - 17-May-2006 at 19:07
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