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The Caliph and The Caliphate

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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Caliph and The Caliphate
    Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 23:54
just wanted to make this as my "come back" post

i thought about making this thread after reading another thread here about the caliphate and many forumers thoughts of what it was and what it should be.

i will start by going back to the origin of the word and in later posts will discuss what the Caliphate was in the early days and what it became later and if it really the same as it started or not.

---------------

- the Caliphate as a word is referred to a state ruled by a person has a title of Caliph , the word Caliph in Arabic means a successor.

- the first to use this title is Caliph Abu Baker who was called khalifat Rasul Allah, which means Successor of God's Messenger and that is Prophet Mohammed PBUH.

- the 2nd Caliph, Caliph Omar was has the title "Khalifat Khalifat Rasul Allah", which means Successor of the Successor of God's Messenger, in brief means the successor of Abu Baker.

-Caliph Omar also the first to use the title Amir Al Mumeneen.

- so the Term Caliph simply means a Successor of the previous Successor, it does not have religious appointment at the time of the Prophet PBUH, it simply means a successor.

i think that because there were no titles such as King or Emperor used by early leaders of Islamic state ( who are mostly were also Companions of the Prophet)


will continue soon.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 05:51
  1. What bearing does a break in succession have on the authority of a caliph?--"Khalifat Khalifat Rasul Allah"
  2. I think the earlier appointments were meritocratic, how would that be achieved today?
  3. Is the position secular?
  4. What about the insistence that the caliph should be a Hashemite?
 
 
 
 


Edited by malizai_ - 16-Dec-2006 at 15:49
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 14:38
Politically speaking,the Caliph is the muslim leader who holds the Holy Lands of Mecca and Medina under his rule(don't know about Jerusalem).He has both political and religious power.A Sultan can become a Caliph,but a Caliph cannot become a Sultan.
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Dec-2006 at 21:55
lets continue

as i mentioned in my post above the word Caliph wasn't there at the time of the Prophet pbuh.

how was the Early Caliphate the first 4 ?

in general,

- the Early Caliphate was a state that covers all Islamic lands.

- the Caliphs were Companions of the Prophet, and as per majority of Islamic view they were Religious Leaders .

- The Caliphs did give fatwas and added some new practices to Islamic Culture, so they were Judges too.

- The Caliphs appointed Emirs in different parts of the Islamic state such as emirs in Yemen, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran ...etc. the Emirs had similar authority as the Caliph in the region they are in charge of, sometimes the Emirs as guidance from the Caliph about new issues.

- and most importantly the caliphs were chosen in a type of a democratic way and was not a monarchy like system.

to be continued
----------------------------------------

malizai_

think the only condition that the Person who is incharge of looking after Islamic lands is to be a Muslim who knows his religion and rules by it, he should be a role model and be fair.

the above is what i think any person who hold such position should be, there are many verses and hadiths about what a ruler should be.

i dont remember it mentioned any condition of a race or color or being secular.

infact i remember reading a hadith mentioning that Islamic lands will be under a Kingdom (referring to the rise of Umayyads and the Abbasids after the first 4 Caliphs). and i think the Prophet mentioned the word "Kingdom"as a not good system.






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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 15:56
Could one be accepted as a Caliph if he does not hold Mecca and Medina? as Spartakus points out.
 
2?
 
Wasn't the system meritocratic rather than democratic.
 
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 06:48
malizai

as far as i understand this position started as a successor of the Prophet and then the successors of the successors ..etc.

the Quran and the Sunnah talked about conditions any person to rule/lead/judge other muslims or muslim land to have.

AFAIK there are no mentioning of other conditions as what cities to hold and what race the holder of that position must have.

-------

the early Caliphs did hold ALL Islamic Lands,

the later Caliphs did not rule or even have any control of many Islamic lands,

so i think its false to call yourself a Caliph and you dont have the same status as the first people who called themselvs Caliphs.

the "Name" of that position was taken advantage of , just to SOUND like that this person is related to the great first Caliphs and hold similar responsibility.

How did the Ottoman became Caliphs?

in Brief Sultan Salim Khan Attaked and ended the Memluk Empire and Ordered the decendent of the Abbasides Caliphs to Pass the title to him so he will be the next Caliph !.

the title started as a describtion of the first Caliph Abu Baker RAA and then when the ruling system became a Monarchy ( Umayyads ) it became just Politics to hold such titles.

thats my opinion.



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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 13:28
Yes,but didn't the Ottomans holded to the holy lands of the Muslims,first Jerusalem and later  Mecca and Medina?As far as i remember ,the Ottomans had expanded to the Arabic penisula too.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2006 at 13:44
Yes the caliph was the ottomans sultan untill 1915 after that Mustafa Kemal pasha abolished the caliphat.


some maps show that they controled all of the penisula but some show only the area around the cities mekka & medina all the way down to yemen
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 02:19
Originally posted by Sparto

Yes,but didn't the Ottomans holded to the holy lands of the Muslims,first Jerusalem and later  Mecca and Medina?As far as i remember ,the Ottomans had expanded to the Arabic penisula too

However the Mamlukes didn't.

After the Khalif Mustamin was killed by the mongols and baghdad destroyed his family and all possible sucessors went missing. A few years later (1261) the Mustamin's son was discover to be hiding with Beudoin tribes. The Mamluke sultan (Baybars al Bundqdari) decided to bring him to Cario and appoint him Khalif, he was not however given any power and spent his life under a virtual house arrest in the Citadel.

The Mamlukes did not control the Hejaz, that being controlled by the Sharif of Mecca who is traditionally from the Hashimi family.
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 11:20

The Jordanians claim that Hashemite decent dont they. So let me just clear this.., the ones that hold Mecca and Medina as sovereign rulers are the Caliphs.

So what stops the Saudi's from waking up one morning and declaring it to be a Caliphate??
 
(Oh! i can so see it..Caliph Omar al Hashemite.)Tongue All hail Omar!!!
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 12:09
Originally posted by azimuth

and most importantly the caliphs were chosen in a type of a democratic way and was not a monarchy like system

Don't make me laugh. They were elected by the ruling elite class, not people. Hardly democratic if you ask me.
    
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2006 at 12:38
Mabey he's talking about the first few Caliphs
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 15:56
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by azimuth

and most importantly the caliphs were chosen in a type of a democratic way and was not a monarchy like system

Don't make me laugh. They were elected by the ruling elite class, not people. Hardly democratic if you ask me.
    
 
As  Xi points out that the 'righteous caliphs' as they are known, were voted for within a committee of deserving candidates. So i suppose you could call it closed door meritocracy. The electoral process was similar to that of the first president of US post independence; where a group of self appointed candidates cast their votes in favor of someone else, the highest votes dictated the wiiner. The appointment of Qadis or judges was similar to the appointment of the supreme court justices of America also, but with the variation that they werent concentrated in a single office but dispersed in regional courts. The common opinion of the Jurists in a shura would be the ultimate law.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 18:13
The Jordanians claim that Hashemite decent dont they.

Yes, they are Hashmis

So let me just clear this.., the ones that hold Mecca and Medina as sovereign rulers are the Caliphs

No. Caliphs often don't control Mecca and Medina, and haven't actually exercised political power of the cities since the Abbasid days. The Sharif of Mecca traditionally rules the cities, with varing amounts of independence from the dominant middle east powers.
So what stops the Saudi's from waking up one morning and declaring it to be a Caliphate??

Thats a very good question really, lack of popularity and impiety maybe?
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2006 at 20:46

Omar

So the criteria for the top job in the land is not that narrow.

THE CALIPH:
 
Can be any muslim and MUST have strong moral authority.
MUST be versed in Islamic sciences.
MUST have the means to exercise authority, to implement and govern.
 
 
The CALIPHATE:
 
The caliphate can be declared anywhere and its credibility is not tied to the holding of Mecca and Medina.
Size of land is not important.
 
What i dont understand is that if the above is all that is required then how come we dont see anyone assuming the title and role of the Caliph.Confused


Edited by malizai_ - 21-Dec-2006 at 20:47
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2006 at 09:01
Originally posted by malizai_

What i dont understand is that if the above is all that is required then how come we dont see anyone assuming the title and role of the Caliph.[IMG]height=17 alt=Confused


i think the title developed to be heavely related to religion and anyone who would dare to assume the title will put himself in a comparision position with the first Caliphs or even the later ones, who mostly ruled a huge parts of Islamic lands and were in some cases one of the strongest rulers in the world.

and i think the islamic population wont accept anyone to hold that title unless he is very popular and actully rules a huge parts of Islamic Lands.


    
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 16:39

The Caliph term as of now carries many religious, jurisdiction, and executive authorities. Bringing the term back to its original meaning, we will find out simply as Azimuth said, it means successor.

Did the prophet appoint a caliph after him?
Not really.
 
Did the Caliphs hold an undisputed religious authority?
Omar in one speech where he addressed the issue of placing a cap on how high a dowry can be, was interrupted by a female audience, corrected by her, and was reminded that his authority does not extend to modify Islamic laws.
 
Can a Caliph issue a religious verdict?
No, and that is why Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal was jailed in order for him to co-issue a religious verdict with other Scholars. He was needed by the Caliph in order to excercise such an authority.
 
Then what is left out of the Caliph position except politics?
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 20:41
You maybe forgetting that there were two caliphates at some time. Other one may have been more significant for Europeans than one you mention.
I am talking about Western Caliphate. I think the title of Caliphe is in many ways very similar to that of western emperor and in particular Holy Emperor.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 22:57
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

You maybe forgetting that there were two caliphates at some time. Other one may have been more significant for Europeans than one you mention.
I am talking about Western Caliphate. I think the title of Caliphe is in many ways very similar to that of western emperor and in particular Holy Emperor.
 
There had been an actual European Caliphate in Spain, unofficial by the last survivor of the house of Umayyad, Abd Al Rahman, from 750 on to, his great grand son, Abd Al Rahman III, in the 10th century who proclaimed the official Caliphate, that functioned for a century until its break up in a civil war that led to the downfall of this European Caliphate, and the creation of over sixty small city state kingdoms.  The city of Cordoba, Spain had been a capital city of the Caliphate in Europe.
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