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Is it incorrect?

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  Quote vagabond Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is it incorrect?
    Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 02:23

Murph - I understand your feelings, but I couldn't disagree more.  Only by questioning the beliefs that we have are we able to grow - intellectually, emotionally and spiritually. 

re:  The "historical Jesus" and historicity vs mythology - there are many Christian scholars who are exploring exactly that field.  Their idea is that more knowledge about the Jesus man can only deepen their understanding and through this - their faith. An altavista search on that exact phrase gives 121,000 results.  I didn't have time to read them all.  One page is by the Jesus Seminar - excellent scholarship and links:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html  Not everyone agrees with them:  http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/menus/historical.ht ml

Many of the groups that proclaimed Jesus as a man were declared heretics (eg: many of the the arguments over Arianism stem from this) - one of the issues over which the early church split was the question of whether Jesus the man was in any way separate from Christ - was he man, divine or both?  How did the Jesus the man relate to the Divine and to the Holy Spirit? The filoque argument is exactly what divided the early christian church into Roman and Byzantine or western and eastern (today Catholic and Orthodox) churches in what became known as the Great Schism of 1054.  These are still  delicate areas for some Christians to question.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque_clause and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06073a.htm

The various mythologies of the ancient Middle East did and do overlap to a great extent - and many residents of the area would have been familiar with several versions of the myths - so it would be no surprise that there is the influence of preexisting beliefs on those that developed. 

  • Virgin birth
  • Twelve followers
  • Killing and resurrection
  • Miracles
  • Birthdate on December 25
  • Morality
  • Mankind's savior
  • Known as the Light of the world 
  • Joseph Campbell explores this relationship quite well in his volume "The Hero with a Thousand Faces".  He relates and compares mythologies from around the world in the context of the life journey of a hero - his chapter headings are - in Part I The Adventure of the Hero: 1. Departure, 2. Initiation, 3. Return and in Part II The Cosmogenic Cycle:  1. Emanations, 2. The Virgin Birth, 3. Transformations of the Hero, 4. Dissolutions, followed by an excellent epilogue:  Myth and Society

    re:  Herod - Orod  I don't think that there is a relationship there.  The Herods were a well documented historical dynasty who ruled from 65 BCE through the fall of Jerusalem in the year 70.  They were a sorry bunch of rulers whose support came from friendships with the Roman rulers, especially Julius Caesar and Marc Antony.  http://www.bartleby.com/65/he/Herod.html

    re:  The original question of Moses the Roman and his wife - The (also much debated) political sentiment that was raised in the Jewish community around the time of Jesus' life were related to the fact that the Messiah was "of Jesse's seed" - that is - a direct descendant (as Jesus was, through Joseph interestingly enough) from King David (Matthew 1 relates the genealogies).  Politically, this would have given the Messiah the authority to lead a revolt against the Romans.  Apparently Jesus had a different agenda. The (very controversial even today) prophesies that are attached to the long awaited Messiah relate specifically to Jewish history and tradition in the Pentateuch and the stories of the various Jewish prophets.  With that being the case, I don't think that the 1st century Jewish community would have rallied around or made an issue of someone whose family tree was not specifically Jewish, nor would the Romans have percieved a threat from someone who did not meet the Jewish criteria to be the Messiah.  We must also remember that as Janus pointed out, the name Jesus is the modern English translation of a Greek translation of Joshua, which was and is a very common name in Hebrew.

    Someone was telling me the other night that there is historical evidence for the presence of Magi in Jerusalem at that time.  Anyone know where I might be able to prove or disprove this?  I have found nothing so far.

    In the time of your life, live - so that in that wonderous time you shall not add to the misery and sorrow of the world, but shall smile to the infinite delight and mystery of it. (Saroyan)
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    azimuth View Drop Down
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      Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 02:36

    so YHWH is God but in Hebrew the way it was pronounced is not known now.

    then why the english using it instead of the word God?

    is it considered an English word for the names of God  plus the other names?

    Hebrew has lots of other names for God

    Arabic has lots of other names for God ( since the world "God" is not Arabic the world Elah is God in Arabic

    Allah means The God ( the one and the only God)

    but Elah means god.  

    so Zues was the Greek God in arabic we say ( Zues "Elah Al-Yonan") we dont say Zues Allah Al-Yonan.

    and one of the Idols which was worshipped before Islam was called "Alaat"  different pronounciation

    but the preIslamic Arabs beleived in Allah as the God who created them and as the God of the Jew and the christans but they "ADDED" their own Idols

    they thought these Idols are spirits of holy people who lived long time ago and their spirit in these Idols now

    and these Idols are the Connections between God and people

    so they ask and pray To these Idols so these Idols will pray for them to God.

    God in other languages as i know are?

    in persian it is Khodah

    the same in the Urdo  it is Khodah.

    indian i think use Bagwan

     

    so it is just Transilation misunderstanding between different languages

     

     

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      Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2005 at 19:42

    Sorry for not being online to address this adequatelly, Azimuth here's what I take, hopefully I can clear up some confusion.

    so YHWH is God but in Hebrew the way it was pronounced is not known now.

    then why the english using it instead of the word God?

    is it considered an English word for the names of God  plus the other names?

    YHWH is not used in english instead of God, God is still addressed as God, or many of the other synonyms given to him, such as Lord.

    I (personally) prefer to use YHWH when speaking of God the father, since it gives it more of an ancient and overbearing feel. When I speak of the current God I use God and Jesus simultaneously. Never, do I use the Holy Spirit, although I probably should, since this is the current manifestation of God on earth.

    so it is just Transilation misunderstanding between different languages

    Kind of but not really, as I said this is one of my own personal names for a manifestation of God.

    Hope that cleared up any confusion.

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      Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 04:36

    yes it does cleared some confusion

    then why modern christans use the Hebrew name for God while the jews dont beleive that YHWH  have a Son (christ).

    also many christans belive that Allah is different God because muslims dont belive that Allah had a son

    something many people dont know that Arabic Jew and Arabic christans Before Islam call God Allah, when they read the Bible in arabic they say Allah for God.

    and they still call god as allah  there is many christans arab in the Arabic world may be around 30 millions

     

     

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    Murph View Drop Down
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      Quote Murph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jan-2005 at 15:02
    Originally posted by azimuth

    then why modern christans use the Hebrew name for God while the jews dont beleive that YHWH  have a Son (christ).

    also many christans belive that Allah is different God because muslims dont belive that Allah had a son
     



    christians call Him Yahweh (that is how YHWH is technically pronounced, right?) because he is the same God of the Jews and still is Yahweh.  just because Jews don't believe he has a son doesn't mean that they both can't call him Yahweh.  Some forms of Judaism and also Christianity don't believe that you should ever say God's name aloud, hence the inpronounceable YHWH.

    i think that most members of the three monotheistic religions acknoweledge that they all worship the same God.  God=Jehovha=Yahweh=the Lord=Allah.  they just differentiate in the specifics of their religion.  the early Muslim empires allowed Jews and Christians to live in their realm because they worshipped the same monotheistic God (Christians were less tolerant, but that was how they were back then).  i can understand how the concept of the Trinity (three Gods in One) can create some disparities between the idea of the three Gods being the same, but that has to do with the specifics of the religion.  it is still one monotheistic God.
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      Quote JasSum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 20:29
    Egypt had simmilar belives in one time.
    And the similarity you say about ...
    The king of Kings
    The Emperor of the world
    The light
    Sun of God
    Are you talking about Isus, Or you are talking of Aleksandar. Because thats how they call them bouth :}
    Isus Was brought to Egypt, by the time when Macedonia ruled it. So there was one french in visit who mentioned the best story about all this.

    1 Isus - Sotir (savior) is from macedonian royal family.
    2 the 3 wise man that camed at his birth were the mesangers from the 3 generals that were ruling the devided empire.
    3 the people that were afraid of the coming of the new legitimate emperor wanted to kill him
    4 he went on safe place - to his own people - in egypt
    5 he proclamed that all nations are children of God, and that all should live in peace united (the same as aleksandar wanted)
    5 he was the new king of kings (the last was aleksandar)
    6 he was the son of God (zeus or ra or just the One God)
    there are more .. but i remmeber just that ...

    So this is from one french who just mentioned what he was researching

    Anyway, i belive that Isus is Son of God, and noone should play around with my belives.

    Its the same as i would say ... Muhamed was not blind, he knew to write and he made up all that up just to prove some of his belives ...

    grrrr .... i feel that anger ....
    Calm and try to talk on some other subject.
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