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who are pomaks?

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DayI View Drop Down
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: who are pomaks?
    Posted: 02-Nov-2006 at 09:46
it is wrong in my opinion to call ancient Bulgars as "Turks", bulgars where a Turkic tribe but today they are slavic people. Also in my opinion as a Turkish to say ancient bulgars are included or belong to Turkish history, no it is Bulgarian history as how kwarezmian, karakhan khanate is central asian (uzbek?), safavvids are Iranian, Mamelukes are Egyptian, avars are eventually serbian-bulgarian-hungarian-croat-macedonian khanate etc etc


All what they have similar is they eventually spoke Turkic language or had Turkic rulers and all of them belong to the big Turkic history Big smile


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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 09:22
More or less, I agree with you. One thing is sure - at least one of the main parts of the Bulgars was Turkic (or Turkicized) and through it the Bulgars are connected to the general Turkic history. I think nobody disagrees about that. Except that some people try to make them "100% racially pure Turkics" (which is impossible in that melting-pot) and neglect the other bigger or smaller elements...
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  Quote Turk Nomad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 10:24
Bulgars weren't Turkizied,they slavizied.
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 12:27
Originally posted by Turk Nomad

Bulgars weren't Turkizied,they slavizied.
it is both, first the rulers where Turkic (atleast their titles) but people whas mainly slavic then they got "assimilated" by slavs but kept their identity (=bulgar).
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 09:57
While re-reading the books of Prof. Dimitar Ovcharov about the Bulgar culture and religion, I decided to quote a part of his introduction to his book "Introduction to the Bulgar culture" (so, a part of the introduction to the "Introduction" ;). And sorry for the quick and not-so-good translation, but my time online is a bit limited...

"It is necessary to clear out another question, concerning the origin of the Proto-Bulgarian [shortly called on English "Bulgar"] ethnos and the culture created by him. In this direction there are several and different hypotheses, which reflect the two main directions of the scholarly searchings. One of them joins the Proto-Bulgarians to the Turkic ethnical community, while the other suggest their Indo-European background. A precondition for the diversity in the opinions is the presence of a number of characteristic features with Turkic or Indo-European character, contained in the cultural arsenal of the Proto-Bulgarians, which created their own state on the Balkan Peninsula. The stiff maintaining of one or the other concept is an extreme, which could hardly be argumentated and supported.
A number of "clues" [sorry, can't find the right word] from different nature are showing that various ethnical groups have taken part since the very beginning of the Proto-Bulgarian ethnogenesis. In this correlation, most perspective seems to be the opinion, according to which the Proto-Bulgarians have the biggest propinquity with the eastern part of the Usuns (Alans, Assi), which could be traced back to the earliest stages in the regions of Central Asia. Already then, however, Turkic elements have actively joined that community, and later on there's a strong influence upon it by the cultures of Chinese, Indians, East Iranians. Only this way could the different (and for some researchers - unexpected) expressions of the Bulgarian culture from later times could be explained. In the end, there's the undoubtful fact that the Proto-Bulgarians arrive on the Balkan Peninsula highly Turkicized, which could hardly be denied."

Later on, in the first chapter "From East to West - in search of the homeland", there's one interesting paragraph, which I would like to quote as well:
"In correlation with the realized connections of the Proto-Bulgarians with the Indo-Iranian world, there's an interesting statistics about the 186 known Proto-Bulgarian names from the period IV-Xc. The origin of 145 names (78%) has been precisely determined. 41% of them are showing resemblance with the pagan names of the Altaic peoples, 51% - with Iranic and Caucasian names and 8% - with the names of other peoples. This fact is a direct indication for the strong mixing of various ethnical components of the Proto-Bulgarian community."

Btw, the book is interesting. There are some interesting graffitis of hunters, warriors and runes as well, but I can't scan them right now...
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 08:34
And another quote, from the Epilogue of the same book:

 "Tracing the sophisticated process of creation and development of the Proto-Bulgarian culture leads us, as it was seen so far, to several important conclusions, from which the main ones are three:

  1. The initial stages of this process show that the Proto-Bulgarians are not Turkic in their basis. Their ethnogenesis is directly connected with the Indo-European tribes (mainly Alan-speaking). During centuries, however, they were also in very close relations with Turkic communities within the limits of powerful, although eclectical, state systems First and Second Turkic khaganates, Avar khaganate, Khazar khaganate. This peculiarity had a strong influence on the overall culture, which was put to a heavy Turkicization and this was proven more than once in the presentation.
  2. The Proto-Bulgarian ethnos began its consolidation far to the east in the regions of Central Asia and not in the Near (Middle) East, as some authors try to prove. Due to this there are the numerous borrowings from highly developed cultures, such as the Chinese, the Indian, the Iranian The contacts with them were realized during the long centuries of moving from east to west.
  3. Its without a doubt that the beginning of the Bulgarian state was established in the first decades of the VII c. by Khan Kubrat and not in 165, as the legendary rulers from the Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers are considered to be. Until then they led a nomadic way of life. This, however, does not diminish their cultural-historical importance. On the contrary! Coming across one or other cultural influence-centre, they manage to borrow and rationalize different cultural achievements. One famous specialist on the Eastern cultures isnt far from the truth by saying that the nomad, sitting on his horse, has a wider outlook and can see further in the space (including in the cultural one) rather than the pointed in the ground after the plough sight of the farmer. This truth doesnt oppose the two ways of existence to each other. The agrarians, standing firmly on the ground, are stable and connected to it. Exactly this is why the unification of these different ways of life is maybe the greatest achievement of the Danubian Bulgarian state, which Khan Asparuh created

 

It was seen well from all said so far that there are traces from other cultures, including the Byzantine one, in all spheres of the material and the spiritual culture of the Proto-Bulgarians. In a number of cases the Byzantine culture is a mediator, a re-translator of ideas and models of the art of the East. Unconditional is the Byzantine influence in the sphere of the language (the Proto-Bulgarian inscriptions on the Greek language), of the administrative and the military titles/ranking, of the acquiring of a number of insignia and characteristic symbols, connected to the Christianity. Very important are also the influences from the culture of the North Black Sea [Pontic] and the Caucasus regions (the building technique, a number of architectural plans), of the Iranian art and religion, directly or through the culture of Alans and Sarmatians (architecture of the kapishtes [pagan sanctuaries], the Madara rock-relief, the Nagi sent Miklosh treasure and others) and, of course, of the Turkic and the Turkic-speaking communities, which were historically connected with the Bulgarian ethnos. The Proto-Bulgarians borrow, although very limited, ideas and notions of the found local Thraco-Roman culture when elements of it were preserved in the universal Byzantine culture. Hence we see that the Proto-Bulgarian cultural complex (or model) is based on original distinctive features and introduced from outside elements

 

The argue whether the transition to another cultural plane in the middle of the IX c. Christian by its character is negative or positive is a scholastic one. There can be no doubt that in the contemporary historical conditions it was positive, as much as it joins a state, nation and culture to the most advanced at that time in Europe the Byzantine. But its important to note that what was previously created in the region of the culture is joined to the new values system, enriches it, makes it more active and more diverse than those of the other nations. Thats exactly why the Bulgarian nation and culture, formed as Slavic, have a number of specific traits, which distinguish them from the rest of the Slavic nations. A natural contribution for this is given by the Proto-Bulgarian culture, which keeps reminding about herself also in the next historical ages."

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 08:57
djeezes man, i've lost my post :(

it doest unlog by itself :S

anyway, NikeBG great post, i agree with it and wanna add that the name "bulgar" (= means mixed in Turkic) does perfectly past with those people.

You know that Hungarians where also heavily "Turkisized" or heavily influenced by Turkic people, their name whas also given by Turkic people etc.

Both have similar history.
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