Interview with Ayatollah Montazeri

This is the last interview with Ayatollah Montazeri made by Golbarg Bashi.

http://www.payvand.com/news/06/mar/1067.html

GB: I wanted to ask you about the human rights of women, the way they are defined in such international documents as Women's Convention (CEDAW). I want to know if you accept these documents. What do you think of those rights?

AM: Women are humans too. Women are humans too. When we say humans, it includes both men and women. When we say humans as humans then that "human" includes women too. Of course there are certain differences between men and women, which is due to their natural disposition (moqtaza-ye tabi'i) and their existential build-up (sakhteman-e vujudi). The existential build-up of men and women are different, and justice requires that according to the capabilities of women they ought to be given their rights. There are certain differences between the existential build up of men and those of women. I was among the people who insisted that Iran must participate in the Women's Convention. I insisted that we must participate in such conventions. This is very much evident in my views. I have insisted that Iran must also participate in this convention. But if there are certain privileges that are indicated in the Qur'an, one must state them. It is wrong for us categorically to refuse to participate in conventions that pertain to women's rights, because this will lead to our country's isolation in the world. I was very insistent on this issue. I was asked this question and I clearly answered it at the time.

GB: May I ask you another question? I wanted to know if you consider those positions of Islam about women and their rights that are for example held in a country like Iran to be globally valid?

AM: You see, if people around the world want to say certain things about women for example being equal to men in matters of inheritance or legal testimony, because these issues pertain to the very letter of the Qur'an, we cannot accept them. However, these positions contain certain subtle points. If we pay closer attention to these subtle points, all things considered, the rights of women are very much upheld and preserved. The global wealth (sarvat-e jahani) every thirty years or so is handed over from one generation to another. Now, consider that God Almighty has made it incumbent upon men to cover the expenses of women. When this couple have a child, despite the fact that this child belongs to both of them, God Almighty has made it mandatory for men to cover the expenses of children. Nevertheless, a third of the inheritance is allotted to women, and two-third for men. When it pertains to ownership, yes, men take twice as much as women. But so far as their expending power is considered, that one third that belongs to women, she does not have to spend it anywhere. That share is a privilege exclusive to her. Because her expenses are all to be paid by her husband, and her share of paying for the expenses of their children is also to be covered by the husband. So yes, we are giving two shares to the husband, but the net result is that women have more than men, because women's expenses and women's share of the children's expenses are both to be covered by men. The one third of inheritance that we have given to her is more as a good measure (tashrifat). Thus women in fact inherit more than men, because their expenses are all on their husband, and while the children belong to both of them their expenses too are all incumbent upon the husband. If we wanted to be fair, then the expenses of the children would have to be paid by both. But in Islam, the children's expenses, despite the fact that the children belong to both of them, is incumbent upon men. The expenses of women are also incumbent upon men. In addition, we are also paying one third of the inheritance to women, just for good measure (bara-ye tashrifat). Thus so far as expendable sum is concerned, women have inherited more than men, despite the fact that so far as actual possession is concerned, two third has been given to men. The reason that two third has been given to men is because men will have to be active and produce, and production is more the work of men. They have allocated two third of the inheritance for men, so that he can continue to produce and increase it. But so far as expenditure is concerned, whatever costs the lady (khanom) may have, the husband must pay for it; and all the expenses that their children have will also have to be covered by the husband. So in fact women have received more than men. These are the fine points that if we were to consider them carefully, we will see that in Islam the situation is not working against women. Quite to the contrary. Islam has acted to the benefit of women��I really don't feel well.

GB: May I ask you another question? I wanted to ask you a question concerning the human rights documents that exist in international laws. Can we really make them compatible with Iranian laws, because some say that some of these laws are not Islamic; whereas when Iran is a signatory to these international conventions, then Iran has accepted certain responsibilities that it is not following now?

AM: Of course in Iran we cannot accept those laws that are against our religion. But the necessity of not becoming globally isolated requires that we should collaborate with international organizations. But on certain occasions that these laws contradict the very clear text of the Qur'an, we cannot cooperate.

GB: Can you give me a few examples of such occasions?

AM: One of them is inheritance. "Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, [and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third. And if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (has been paid). Your parents or your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise] [The Qur'an, IV, Women: 11][9].

The Qur'an says that sons inherit twice as much as daughters, for which I just gave you an explanation. As I said, so far as expending power is concerned, women are actually getting more than men. But so far as ownership is concerned, they say that two third goes to men so that he can do productive work with it and increase it.

GB: I see.

AM: But so far as expending power is concerned, the expenses of women are to be paid by men, and women's share of their children's expenses are also to be paid by men, while the children belong to both of them.

GB: I see.

AM: If we were to be fair, then half the expenses of children ought to be paid by women, whereas Islam has demanded that men pay for it. So altogether, justice is observed.

GB: May I ask you one more question? My last question is this: Today in Iran many women are the bread-winner for their family, whereas so far as the question of "blood-money" (diyeh) is concerned, when a mother has several children and is the bread-winner of the family, if she were to be killed in an accident, then her blood-price (khun baha) is half of a man's; whereas a man who might be for example a drug addict, and who is a liability for the society at large, his blood-price is much higher.

AM: You see, you should not take the example of an addicted man as the measure. Men in general (no'-e mard ha), all things considered, are productively more active -- both intellectual activities and practical activities. If one man is a drug addict, that does not change the situation. Law must follow the practice of the majority of people. All things considered, the intellectual and practical activities of men are more than women. You should not take the example of one drug-addict as measure. Yes, it is also possible that a woman might become a professor, and might be much more capable of many men, but in general, we have to consider the overall situation.

GB: But right now in Iranian universities, some 60% of students are women.

AM: Yes.

GB: So in future generations, when the number of professors, physicians, high-ranking experts, etc, will be more women, will Islam be able to have an ijtihad and modify these unjust laws because they no longer correspond with reality?

AM: Those aspects of the Islamic law that are based on the very letter of the Qur'an, the answer is no. But certain other things yes, you can, and they can be subject to changing times. But those that are from the very letter of the Qur'an, no they cannot, and those have certain wisdom and subtleties in them��I am really getting tired��Now as it pertains to human rights, you may want to listen to my lectures��

GB: I will listen to them.

AM: . . . and as I said, I have just written a treatise on human rights that it is about to be published. Towards the end of my Resaleh-ye Amaliyyeh (Collection of Juridical Edicts) I have also written a few pages concerning rights. Do take a look at our Resaleh-ye Amaliyyeh as well��but right now I am really tired and do not feel well��