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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Han
    Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 12:56
Just a dumb question here. What did the Han chinese call themselves before the Han dynasty?
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 13:48
http://www.worldclass.net/China/han.htm

According to this article, it seems to be the Qin Empire which ended in 206 BC.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 16:49
no, this is not about dynsties but what the name of the Chinese people was before Han dyansty. i don't know either but it could be Xia after Xia dynasty...
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 20:30

The Chinese identified themselves with whichever dynasty they lived in.  For example, those living in the Song Dynasty called themselves Song Ren (Song = Song Dynasty, Ren = people).  The name China is a relatively modern construct.

Curiously enough, the Han Dynasty called Rome Da Qin, meaing Big Qin.  I think it has to do with the western position of the Roman Empire.  Qin was the western-most state during the Warring States Period; thus, Rome was called Big Qin, a reflection of its power and western locale.   

If I recall correctly, Bacteria was called Da Xia, or Big Xia during the Han.

Han is an ethnic identification, not a national identification.  For example, those of Han ethnicity who lived under the Jin/Jurchen administration during the 12th century were identified as Jin Ren, or People of Jin.  

 



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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 20:56

before the han dynasty and even today, han chinese people are also called hua people. the people of hua xia. the republic of china and people's republic of china while written in chinese mean

"central hua democratic republic" for roc in taiwan.

"central hua people's republic" for prc in mainland

hua is also a term han people call themselves even before the han period.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 23:36

so since people of East Turkistan dont call them selves hua , song red,da xia .. ect .. why are their homeland is occupied by chinese

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 02:26
Originally posted by deniztc1983

so since people of East Turkistan dont call them selves hua , song red,da xia .. ect .. why are their homeland is occupied by chinese

that's because it is not their homeland. the entire land of the so called east turkistan was first occupied by the han dynasty in the 1st century bc, some 1000 yrs before this group of people even arrived at their so called homeland. they are more like a minority group living in our historical land.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 12:48

 

Total nonsense. If you are talking about political ruling as a justification for claiming a land, then before Han (very brief though), Hons occupied this region, and ruled for hundreds of years. Tiele is the nephew of Hons. (Check your han chinese sources). Uyghur is one of the Tiele tribes (Again check your own han chinese records). 

 

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 13:37
Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 16:44

can you make the tang map bigger? i am interested in knowing the details of it.

in regard to barbar's post, it is not nonsense. what i mean is han chinese people can claim the land as much as those turkic people can. both ruled the place, and the han ruled it earlier.

i am not denying ur right to claim it, but i do not wish people to think that the turkic people are the only people who can claim it because we have just as much if not even more evidence and historical ties to this piece of land as these turkic people.

but under current circumstances, the turkic people are not strong enough to claim it.

 

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 20:57
Originally posted by deniztc1983

so since people of East Turkistan dont call them selves hua , song red,da xia .. ect .. why are their homeland is occupied by chinese


And why are you bringing in this topic unrelated to the original question?

Stop propogandizing the topics. Consider this as an informal warning.
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 00:42

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:11
Originally posted by Sino Defender

can you make the tang map bigger? i am interested in knowing the details of it.


All maps from: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/History_of_China and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:30
Originally posted by Sino Defender

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty...



You are right about Han Wudi but it's not clear that after his death the lands were kept. In any case the consolidation of Chinese power in the area doesn't seem to happen before 60BC:

  At the beginning of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD), the region was subservient to the Xiongnu, a powerful nomadic people based in modern Mongolia. In the 2nd century BC, Han China sent Zhang Qian as an envoy to the states in the region, beginning several decades of struggle between the Xiongnu and Han China over dominance of the region, eventually ending in Chinese success. In 60 BC Han China established the Protectorate of the Western Regions (西域都護府 at Wulei (烏壘; near modern Luntai) to oversee the entire region as far west as the Pamir.

Source: Wikipedia


... and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.


The Mongol Yuan dynasty did not control Xinjiang: it belonged to Chagatai Khanate of Central Asia. It controlled Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria and Korea though.

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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 21:19

Originally posted by poirot

Curiously enough, the Han Dynasty called Rome Da Qin, meaing Big Qin.  I think it has to do with the western position of the Roman Empire.  Qin was the western-most state during the Warring States Period; thus, Rome was called Big Qin, a reflection of its power and western locale.

I think Roma was called Da Qin as a phonetic rendering of Aegean sea. While the Italian peninsula did not border the Aegean sea, it was not through the Romans that the Chinese came into contact with Rome but through the series of middlemen along the East-West trade routes.

There is a likelihood that the traders of the Roman empire identified themselves as being from the Aegean maritime commercial traders, and the name got stuck.

As for the possibility of naming Rome after Qin because of its power and western locality, I think it is less likely because the Chinese would picture Rome as a western terminal of the world, nor name Rome after Qin even if they did.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 08:39
Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

Only after Banchao compain, did han managed to establish its real control over this region, that is 85 AD, and your Han resourses tell us that after the death of Banchao, that is 102 AD , Huns controlled this region again, and Han never managed to retake it.

I'm laughing over your "7th-10th of Tang control".  After Talas battle,  Tang almost lost its power in this region, acutally, Qarluq and Tibet allied to took this region thereafter, and in 791 Uyghurs defeated them, and established the control. Before that time, Tang only had control over this region for two very breif periods, which never exceed 80 years if you sum up. Check your own records.

Manchu didn't have real control over this region (especially in the southern main part) after their defeat of Zhungars. Only in 1877 they managed to control this region, and gave the name Xinjiang ('new  land') in Chinese.

 

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:20
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

Only after Banchao compain, did han managed to establish its real control over this region, that is 85 AD, and your Han resourses tell us that after the death of Banchao, that is 102 AD , Huns controlled this region again, and Han never managed to retake it.

I'm laughing over your "7th-10th of Tang control".  After Talas battle,  Tang almost lost its power in this region, acutally, Qarluq and Tibet allied to took this region thereafter, and in 791 Uyghurs defeated them, and established the control. Before that time, Tang only had control over this region for two very breif periods, which never exceed 80 years if you sum up. Check your own records.

Manchu didn't have real control over this region (especially in the southern main part) after their defeat of Zhungars. Only in 1877 they managed to control this region, and gave the name Xinjiang ('new  land') in Chinese.

 

all this doesn't matter. what matters is that we now are stronger than you, and you have effective control over the region. who can claim is a question based upon perspective. if you have the right to claim, we have just as much.

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 20:48

I repeat again, the name China and Chinese is a modern construct.  Do not confuse the Han with the Chinese, as one refers to an ethnic group, and the other a nationality.  One does not need to be Han to be Chinese, nor does one need to be Chinese to be Han. 

I disagree with many Western historians exclusively labeling the Han as Chinese, because empires like the Tang, Song, and Ming were all composed of mulitple ethnic groups.  Like the Roman empire, ancient Chinese empires were multiethnic.

Sino Defender and barbar, please be more considerate of each other and maintain a civil discussion.  Sino Defender, your quote seems too militant.



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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 22:52
Originally posted by poirot

I repeat again, the name China and Chinese is a modern construct.  Do not confuse the Han with the Chinese, as one refers to an ethnic group, and the other a nationality.  One does not need to be Han to be Chinese, nor does one need to be Chinese to be Han. 

I disagree with many Western historians exclusively labeling the Han as Chinese, because empires like the Tang, Song, and Ming were all composed of mulitple ethnic groups.  Like the Roman empire, ancient Chinese empires were multiethnic.

Sino Defender and barbar, please be more considerate of each other and maintain a civil discussion.  Sino Defender, your quote seems too militant.

it is not. an unearthed christinity stone dated back to the tang dynasty already has the term "china" on it. some of the han objects unearthed also show the term "China"

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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 22:58
Give me the sources.  Those who lived during the Tang Dynasty were known as the people of the Tang, and similarily for the Han
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