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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Han
    Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:33

Originally posted by Degredado

Whoa! Here are some very good answers! Thanks guys! (and good pics Charioteer)

you are welcome!

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 09:31
Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by poirot

Give me the sources.  Those who lived during the Tang Dynasty were known as the people of the Tang, and similarily for the Han

have watched the tv channel that shows the stone that has a quote of "big Qin "View" "Religion" "flow" "walk" China"

just translate the word one by one and u will know what i am tlaking about. i suck at ping ying sorry.

they were called the people of the tang, but also people of the middle kingdom. the term "middle kingdom" / "china" was already in use during the han dynasty.

this is the stone monument you are referring to

on it, China is called " ZhongGuo/China "

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2006 at 14:56
Whoa! Here are some very good answers! Thanks guys! (and good pics Charioteer)

Edited by Degredado
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2006 at 02:24


This is a brocade piece  made to protect ones shoulder parts, unearthed in 1995 at the remains of "NiYa" archaeological site,  todays MinFeng county in XinJiang autonomous region.

This Han dynasty- Jin dynasty period textile has a phrase  "Wu Xing Chu Dong Fang Li Zhong Guo" on both the top and bottom, which reads from the right to left (as this is how ancient Chinese read), translate as "five stars gather-at east favors Zhong Guo/China". The term "Zhong Guo" is clearly identifiable.

 As for the  meaning and purpose of the phrase, the five stars point to the elements of  metal, wood, water, fire, earth, that compose the celestiall body. as early as spring & autumn period, the concept of "five stars" has already developed and was in association with the representation of military and state affairs.
Ancient text from the  Han dynasty,records of royal astronomy- chronology of history has the same mention of such concept  of "five stars"  as well the term "Zhong Guo":
"if the stars  gathered at the east, shining red and bright, favors ZhongGuo/China to use military, otherwise, they gatherd at the west, favors the barbarian, ZhongGuo should not use her military",  in the records of of HanShu(book of Han), a similar description can also be found.

From the character of "Guo" (first character from the bottom left on this brocade piece), one can see the writing form of Guo is different from the "Guo" on that bronze ware of king Cheng of western-Zhou dynasty, as the character  "Guo" during early Zhou hasnt got the square aound it yet, like how  the "Guo" is written on this textile.( which it evolved from the Zhou form)
the character next to Guo's right is "Zhong", symbolize the royal banner
the original form of Guo(without square around it), one can understand its meaning by visualizing it, as one can see the "little square" in the bottom left parts of Zhou period "Guo", it symbolize the platform where the offerings  would be placed for the ancestors, the other parts of the "Guo" symbolize a man offering sacrifice in front of the platform.

Together the two essential parts form the character "Guo". As we know that in ancient times, another term which basically has the same essence of description of the events/activities of  ancestral offering, "SheJi" is term originally mean the ceremonial halls of the royal family to their ancestors, but when one says  that a certain dynasty's "SheJi" is finished, then it effectively means the kingdom/state/country under their rule is finished. For example, in spring & autumn When the king of Wu kingdom captured the capital of  Chu kingdom, he deliberately destroyed the "SheJi" of Chu royals, which symbolized that he has destroyed the kingdom of Chu.
So the connection between the concepts is there.
Which all in all, the term of "Zhong Guo" appeared at least from the early period of Zhou dynasty, consider King Cheng was only the second ruler, and to taken consideration that the evolution of the characters at least must be started during the Shang, let alone from practical to literal meaning, thus its reasonable to assume, that the concept  of "Zhong Guo"may had formed even earlier than King Cheng  of Zhou's era.

Sidenote: This brocade piece belong to the  upper ruling class of NiYa, placed at the top-right side next to the body. Its believed war or social unrest may caused the men there to abandon "NiYa".

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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 07:13

The people of HuaXia today,built new ceremonial hall for the Yellow emperor

 

Paying pilgrimage and holding memorial ceremony for the ancester "HuangDi"

 

 



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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 04:49

It is obvious, that the term "Zhong Guo"(China) was used long before the establishment of the Han dynasty.

For further reference( which in Chinese), please check the following sites

http://www.artcn.cn/Article/Print.asp?ArticleID=3029

http://www.jschina.com.cn/gb/jschina/2003/24/node8192/node82 24/userobject1ai533323.html

this  bronze vessel belong to the  king Cheng(1042-1021 BC) of western-Zhou dynasty.

The inscription within contain total 122 letters, that  the term "Zhong Guo" first appeared , which is the earliest physical evidence.

The character "Zhong" (literally mean centre) as its a pictograph, symbolize the royal banner (how the character look like in Chinese),

the character "Guo" (literally mean kingdom/state/country) symbolize the royal city/residence of the sovereigns, of the Shang and Zhou Kings.

The term "Zhong Guo" originally only refers to the area which was under direct  control of  the Kings, but eventually came to refer all the vassels/states under the influence of the kingdom, culturally or/and politically.

Sidenote: such an important relic, was almost unintentionally destroyed by the local metal recycle station as its viewed unworthy object, but was fortunately saved by someone.



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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 06:42

The Ancient Han called themselves  "Hua Xia"(or "Zhu Xia",ie all of Xia). "Hua" means prosperity/glory, "Xia" means "Men of  Zhong Guo" .("Zhong Guo" translate as "Middle Kingdom"/"Central state")
3000 years ago, the term "Zhong Guo" already appeared  from the early period of the Zhou Dynasty, it  can be substituted with another term "Zhong Yuan", they were geo- cultural and political terms determined an area,which makes today's He Nan province in central China. The terms reflect that the core of Chinese cultural dominance, from its ruling center around the city of LuoYang, extending to the whole of middle reaches of the Yellow river. In 1965, bronze vessels belong to the king "Cheng"of Zhou dynasty were unearthed in ShannXi province( North-west  to He Nan province), from the  inscription on the bronze ware, came across the phrase "Zhai Zi Zhong Guo", which means "move  residence to Zhong Guo". which accord with historical records, that state " the King Cheng of Zhou dynasty want to follow his predecessor king Wu's will, to move Zhou capital to the centre of the "world"(TianXia), and rule."

And some believe the term " Hua Xia", derived from geographical origin, that identify "Hua" with Mountain Hua in ShannXi province, which was the area  that harbored the Yang Shao culture of China, and identify "Xia" with river Xia, in ShanXi(a different province next to ShannXi) province's south west region, which was ancient Xia people's settlement area. From the inscriptions on Shang dynasty oracle bones, the characters of both "Hua" and "Xia" have grand meaning, they were highly praised gods along with another god "He"(means river), according to ancient legend,  "He" splits "Hua" and "Xia", the 3 gods were altogether addressed in oracle reading by the Shang.


The geographical meaning of "Hua Xia" was the core area where the legendary pre-history sovereigns, Yao, Shun, great Yu, along with Shang and Zhou dynasties ruled. It is the "Zhong Tu"(middle earth), thus "Hua Xia" transform into "Zhong Guo", as opposed to the usage of terms like  "Si Fang" and "Si Yi", i.e uncivilized barbarians (non-Chinese) around the "Middle kingdom" (the Chinese)
Today, "Si Fang"   literally mean four directions, thus "Dong Fang"(east),"Xi Fang"(west),"Nan Fang"(south),"Bei Fang"(north) in Mandarin. But when the King WuDing of Shang dynasty and his queen FuHao battled the barbarians called "Tu Fang" and "Qiang Fang" to the north-west, Usage of Fang(Si Fang) must had similar meaning to that of Yi, as the  terms "Si Fang" and "Si Yi" were to express a same definition," barbarians around in four directions ".

In ancient text, "Hua" and "Xia" both meaning the Chinese and their kingdoms,states,clans etc, whereas the term "Man" and "Yi" were refering the non-Chinese barbarians.
In one historical records from the Spring & autumn period,  "the armies of Kingdom Lu and Qi fought each other at a place called JiaGu, the sovereign of Qi called the help of local Lai tribe to attack the sovereign of Lu. Confucius condemed this action by saying"if its not the descendants of Xia themselves fought each other, the Barbarian Yi would never disrupt the land of Hua"".
Confucius had good reason for that, as he himself was descended from royal line of Song Kingdom, whom themselves before the establishment of Zhou dynasty were once the ruling class of Shang dynasty. And the founder of Lu kingdom was JiDan or ZhouGong ( Duke of Zhou), brother to the King Wu of Zhou, and the man responsible for split the land under Zhou rule into many feudal kingdoms, Confucius revered him and called ZhouGong a saint.  The founder of Qi kingdom was JiangShang, supreme advicer to the founding king of Zhou dynasty, who helped the king to overthrew the Shang, and was rewarded with the land of Qi.

Today, Han Chinese still call themselves "Scions of the Yellow emperor and the Fire emperor".
The founders of ancient Xia, Shang, Zhou dynasties were from "HuaXia" group, First king of Xia, King Qi(which literally means begining) was the son of the legendary sage sovereign "Great Yu",

 who battled the floods and revered by "HuaXia" to these days. Before Qi, the working chief examines certain outstanding personage, as majority of the Clans agreed, the person then was elected as the new chief of the HuaXia, because of Yu's deeds battling the floods, he was chosen by the former chief Shun. But after Yu's death, Qi abolished this custom, the YouHu clan objected this change, and was defeated by Qi's force, thus establish the first Chinese dynasty, Xia.

Qi rewarded the Zi clan whom helped  his father "the great Yu" battle the floods, a land to rule. The Zi later overthrew the Xia, and founded the Shang Dynasty by Tang , the first king of Shang.
The Zhou was a vassel state to the Shang, their royal line had the surname of Ji, which was the surname of the Yellow emperor.  Xia, Shang, Zhou dynasties were all founded by HuaXia, thus by the "Scions of the Yellow emperor and the Fire emperor". 

The HuaXia revered both  " the Yellow emperor" and " the Fire Emperor".

This is the Han dynasty wall carving depicting the Yellow emperor

and his wife Lei Zu (inventor of Silk), a Northern Zhou dynasty statuary of her

HuangDi(the yellow emperor) had the surname of Ji, also called  by clan Xuan Yuan or YouXiong, son of ShaoDian. He possess of the virtue of earth, since earth is yellow, thus the name HuangDi, meaning the Yellow emperor. By defeating YanDi(the Fire emperor) at the battle of BanQuan, YanDi  agreed to surrender and form with HuangDi the Yan-Huang alliance, where the "scions of the Yellow and Fire emperors" came to be.

HuangDi then defeated the JiuLi tribe under the leadership of ChiYou at the battle of ZhuoLu. He had ChiYou's head cut off, part of JiuLi fled to south, while part of them were incorporated into the Yan-Huang group. By these victories, HuangDi was chosen by the rest, as the common leader of all tribes.
HuangDi gave many contributions to the HuaXia, including silk production, building of ships and vehicles, Chinese letter, musics,mathematics,medicine etc. He had twenty five sons, fourteen of them were granted with surnames, altogether twelve. He was buried at QiaoShan(today HuangLing county in ShannXi province) after he passed away.

Through the millennia, the land around his mausoleum see the rise and fall of many dynasties, because of these intense human activities, that as much as 90% of the land was once covered with vegetation now became wasted. Only at the mausoleum of the Yellow emperor, one might get a glimpse of what was the land look like back in the millennia, there are cypress trees(sign of condolence) more than 2500 years old,  there are fountains to be found only around his mausoleum. No one dared to disturb the place, that its ecological environment is preserved through the millennia.

Lei Zu was the daughter of XiLing clan, she born HuangDi a son named ChangYi, whom became the ancester of YouYu clan and the Xia dynasty. Another son of theirs XuanXiao became the ancester of  the Shang and Zhou dynasty.

YanDi, or the Fire emperor,

was the leader of  a tribe which had the surname of Jiang. Also called ChiDi, LieShan clan, or some say hes the same as the legendary ShenNong (whos the inventor of Chinese agriculture and medicine)

YanDi's mother was named RenSi, one day she was on tour of Mountain Hua, after  seeing  a divine dragon, she felt strange of her body, upon return she gave birth to a son, whom is the YanDi. Legend says YanDi could speak after 3 days of his birth, could walk after the fifth day, and at only 3 years of age, he know the essense of agriculture.Through his life, he did many good things to the people, he directed the agriculture that no one was lack of food and cloth, in order to find cures to illness of man,  he  personally tasted many unknow wild vegetations, that it is said he poisoned himself 70 times in a single day. He also make musical instruments, and teach the people how to follow proprieties. His clan originally came from the south of ShannXi, along the yellow river, his clan spread towards the east, where evetually clashed with HuangDi. YanDi and HuangDi fought at BanQuan, with HuangDi's victory and the forming of Yan-Huang alliance, the HuaXia is born, thats why Han Chinese today still call themselves  "Scions of the Yellow and Fire emperors".

Besides the ancestors of Xia, Shang, Zhou dynasties were descendants of  the Yellow emperor, many their vassel states and clans were also founded by YanDi's descendants, for that war Confucius despises between the Lu and Qi, Lu was founded by Ji clan, which was descendant of the Yellow emperor, whereas the Qi was by Jiang clan, the descendant of the Fire emperor.

 


 



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  Quote honeybee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 16:31
Originally posted by barbar

[QUOTE=Sino Defender]


Only after Banchao compain, did han managed to establish its real control over this region, that is 85 AD, and your Han resourses tell us that after the death of Banchao, that is 102 AD , Huns controlled this region again, and Han never managed to retake it.

No and No, the first protector general in the region dates to 59 b.c. Ban Chao simply recaptured the region. Read the Han Shu. The Huns has nothing to do with the Uighurs(hujie) in fact they were enemies. And no the Hujie at this time did not control any part of Turkestan, they are north of Zungaria.

 

"I'm laughing over your "7th-10th of Tang control".  After Talas battle,  Tang almost lost its power in this region, "

No, warhead has already debunked this nonsense. Talas did absolutely nothing. It was just a skirmish. Tang power only ended in 790s.

 

"Manchu didn't have real control over this region (especially in the southern main part) after their defeat of Zhungars. Only in 1877 they managed to control this region, and gave the name Xinjiang ('new  land') in Chinese. "

 

umm the Qing dynasty has full fledge control over the entire region when Meng Jui took it over in 1759.

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Feb-2006 at 00:38

Originally posted by poirot

Give me the sources.  Those who lived during the Tang Dynasty were known as the people of the Tang, and similarily for the Han

have watched the tv channel that shows the stone that has a quote of "big Qin "View" "Religion" "flow" "walk" China"

just translate the word one by one and u will know what i am tlaking about. i suck at ping ying sorry.

they were called the people of the tang, but also people of the middle kingdom. the term "middle kingdom" / "china" was already in use during the han dynasty.



Edited by Sino Defender
"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 22:58
Give me the sources.  Those who lived during the Tang Dynasty were known as the people of the Tang, and similarily for the Han
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 22:52
Originally posted by poirot

I repeat again, the name China and Chinese is a modern construct.  Do not confuse the Han with the Chinese, as one refers to an ethnic group, and the other a nationality.  One does not need to be Han to be Chinese, nor does one need to be Chinese to be Han. 

I disagree with many Western historians exclusively labeling the Han as Chinese, because empires like the Tang, Song, and Ming were all composed of mulitple ethnic groups.  Like the Roman empire, ancient Chinese empires were multiethnic.

Sino Defender and barbar, please be more considerate of each other and maintain a civil discussion.  Sino Defender, your quote seems too militant.

it is not. an unearthed christinity stone dated back to the tang dynasty already has the term "china" on it. some of the han objects unearthed also show the term "China"

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 20:48

I repeat again, the name China and Chinese is a modern construct.  Do not confuse the Han with the Chinese, as one refers to an ethnic group, and the other a nationality.  One does not need to be Han to be Chinese, nor does one need to be Chinese to be Han. 

I disagree with many Western historians exclusively labeling the Han as Chinese, because empires like the Tang, Song, and Ming were all composed of mulitple ethnic groups.  Like the Roman empire, ancient Chinese empires were multiethnic.

Sino Defender and barbar, please be more considerate of each other and maintain a civil discussion.  Sino Defender, your quote seems too militant.



Edited by poirot
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Feb-2006 at 16:20
Originally posted by barbar

Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

Only after Banchao compain, did han managed to establish its real control over this region, that is 85 AD, and your Han resourses tell us that after the death of Banchao, that is 102 AD , Huns controlled this region again, and Han never managed to retake it.

I'm laughing over your "7th-10th of Tang control".  After Talas battle,  Tang almost lost its power in this region, acutally, Qarluq and Tibet allied to took this region thereafter, and in 791 Uyghurs defeated them, and established the control. Before that time, Tang only had control over this region for two very breif periods, which never exceed 80 years if you sum up. Check your own records.

Manchu didn't have real control over this region (especially in the southern main part) after their defeat of Zhungars. Only in 1877 they managed to control this region, and gave the name Xinjiang ('new  land') in Chinese.

 

all this doesn't matter. what matters is that we now are stronger than you, and you have effective control over the region. who can claim is a question based upon perspective. if you have the right to claim, we have just as much.

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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 08:39
Originally posted by Sino Defender

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

Only after Banchao compain, did han managed to establish its real control over this region, that is 85 AD, and your Han resourses tell us that after the death of Banchao, that is 102 AD , Huns controlled this region again, and Han never managed to retake it.

I'm laughing over your "7th-10th of Tang control".  After Talas battle,  Tang almost lost its power in this region, acutally, Qarluq and Tibet allied to took this region thereafter, and in 791 Uyghurs defeated them, and established the control. Before that time, Tang only had control over this region for two very breif periods, which never exceed 80 years if you sum up. Check your own records.

Manchu didn't have real control over this region (especially in the southern main part) after their defeat of Zhungars. Only in 1877 they managed to control this region, and gave the name Xinjiang ('new  land') in Chinese.

 

Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 21:19

Originally posted by poirot

Curiously enough, the Han Dynasty called Rome Da Qin, meaing Big Qin.  I think it has to do with the western position of the Roman Empire.  Qin was the western-most state during the Warring States Period; thus, Rome was called Big Qin, a reflection of its power and western locale.

I think Roma was called Da Qin as a phonetic rendering of Aegean sea. While the Italian peninsula did not border the Aegean sea, it was not through the Romans that the Chinese came into contact with Rome but through the series of middlemen along the East-West trade routes.

There is a likelihood that the traders of the Roman empire identified themselves as being from the Aegean maritime commercial traders, and the name got stuck.

As for the possibility of naming Rome after Qin because of its power and western locality, I think it is less likely because the Chinese would picture Rome as a western terminal of the world, nor name Rome after Qin even if they did.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:30
Originally posted by Sino Defender

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty...



You are right about Han Wudi but it's not clear that after his death the lands were kept. In any case the consolidation of Chinese power in the area doesn't seem to happen before 60BC:

  At the beginning of the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220 AD), the region was subservient to the Xiongnu, a powerful nomadic people based in modern Mongolia. In the 2nd century BC, Han China sent Zhang Qian as an envoy to the states in the region, beginning several decades of struggle between the Xiongnu and Han China over dominance of the region, eventually ending in Chinese success. In 60 BC Han China established the Protectorate of the Western Regions (西域都護府 at Wulei (烏壘; near modern Luntai) to oversee the entire region as far west as the Pamir.

Source: Wikipedia


... and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.


The Mongol Yuan dynasty did not control Xinjiang: it belonged to Chagatai Khanate of Central Asia. It controlled Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria and Korea though.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 01:11
Originally posted by Sino Defender

can you make the tang map bigger? i am interested in knowing the details of it.


All maps from: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/History_of_China and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_China



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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2006 at 00:42

Originally posted by Maju

Eastern Turkestan (Xinkiang) was Chinese only for brief periods:



Eastern Han (25-220 CE). First period in which Xinkiang is Chinese


Tang controlled a vast stretch of Cetral Asia, including Xinkiang, in the 8th century.


And Quing would eventually take control of it again since the 17th century.

In all these periods, Turkmen were surely dwelling there.

however, the area was already occupied by western han during the 1st century bc under emperor han wudi, and the occupation continued until the end of the eastern han dynasty, and it became under chinese rule again during the tang dynasty (7th century - 10th century), and then under the mongol yuan dynasty, and then finally the qing dynasty that was replaced by the republic in 1911.

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 20:57
Originally posted by deniztc1983

so since people of East Turkistan dont call them selves hua , song red,da xia .. ect .. why are their homeland is occupied by chinese


And why are you bringing in this topic unrelated to the original question?

Stop propogandizing the topics. Consider this as an informal warning.
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Baron
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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2006 at 16:44

can you make the tang map bigger? i am interested in knowing the details of it.

in regard to barbar's post, it is not nonsense. what i mean is han chinese people can claim the land as much as those turkic people can. both ruled the place, and the han ruled it earlier.

i am not denying ur right to claim it, but i do not wish people to think that the turkic people are the only people who can claim it because we have just as much if not even more evidence and historical ties to this piece of land as these turkic people.

but under current circumstances, the turkic people are not strong enough to claim it.

 

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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