Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
ok ge
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator
Joined: 29-Aug-2005
Location: Saudi Arabia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1775
|
Quote Reply
Topic: European Press shows solidarity with threatened Danish cartoonist Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 01:39 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Don't they poke fun at Jews in many Arab countries? Does that not provoke anti-Jewish sentiments? And you can't say that Jews are not occasional targets of mockery in the Arab world, my parents are from the Middle East so I know this very well. |
This issue precisely I talked about in a recent closed topic "When a cartoon is a cartoon". I will quote myself and excuse my laziness for that:
Originally posted by ok ge
strategos wrote:
Arab nations constantly still have such drawings and cartoons being depicted of jews. Why don't we have their governments make formal appologies to the jews.We also do not see jews threatening another "holocaust"(even thought that might sound weird), and burning of Arab embassies(if they have any). | | |
I think there is a contineous lack of knowledge of the full picture in most of the Middle east conflicts. Some of these misunderstandings is that Arab newspapers are full of anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish caricatures. While such cartoons exist with no doubt in many Arab newspaper (I personally disagree with the ones that target the Jews in general, but not the anti-Israeli ones), Israeli and Jewish newspaper in Israel are not innocent at all in that matter. It is like a battle between both sides and surprisingly they share the same caricature ideas in some cases! Israeli newsppaer are filled with anti-Arab and anti-Muslim racism. In one case, the Jerusalem Post depicted a caricature of the Islamic Jihad as a huge snake sitting on the world map and its tongue dripping poison all over the world! same exact propoganda.
Also, so much fuzzing about isolated cases of total retaliation (as the one posted here of the fundamentalist group in UK), and almost no coverage of similar cases where for instance Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the spiritual leader of Shas party and the Cheif Rabbi of Sephardic jews, has called many times Arabs in generals as cursed "snakes and insects." In fact, he was quoted to say "It is forbidden to be merciful to them, you must give them missiles, with relish - annihilate them. Evil ones, damnable ones," quoted in the Hebrew Maariv newspaper (source)
Bottom line, you can be selective in accusing a religion and ignoring the full picture. One thing for sure and hard to dispute, while the Prophet Muhammed is depicted in all ugly pictures in many Israeli newspaper and now European newspaper, you will have a hard time finding an Arab newspaper that depict Jesus or Moses in such an ugly way, not even any of the desciples of the Gospel (whom Muslims consider them false). Definitely Muslims are raised to respect the core beliefs of other religions, in contrast to what the "free" and "tolerant" west is preaching. |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Well, from what I know the mob in Lebanon didn't include any ethnic Lebanese. It was mostly Syrians and Palestinians. So its not even their country, technically. But even if they were Lebanese, I never justified the actions of the mobs (calling them "protesters" isn't correct, because once they resort to violence, they become a mob). I was simply defending the Arabs' right to boycott, no matter how premature I personally seem to find it. |
Who said they were not Lebanese? What source? Sounds to me a Lebanese propoganda and similar to the typical excuse "they are not truly Lebanese". Who cares about their origin. They are Lebanese citizens as Osamah Bin Ladin is a Saudi citizen. It is a fact.
I know you were not intentially defending the bombing of the embassies. I just wanted your statement to come rephrased just for clarity.
By the way, why not boycotting Turkish goods if you believe in your cause. I heard Armenian diary products as good as the Turkish ones. But I guess they are not available in the States.
Edited by ok ge
|
D.J. Kaufman
Wisdom is the reward for a lifetime of listening ... when youd have preferred to talk.
|
|
ArmenianSurvival
Chieftain
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 03:09 |
Thanks for the clarification about the anti-Jewish/anti-Israeli
sentiments in the Arab world. I agree with you in that I find the ones
targeting Jews in general distasteful, but I can't say the same about
the anti-Israeli ones, especially if theyre doing the same to the
perception of Arabs/Muslims in their own country. So given your
position, I can't say that I disagree with your view. Mainly because
the anti-Israeli ones are political rather than ethnic/religious. But
in reality I believe anyone has the right to say just about whatever
they want, even though I personally don't like ethnic/religious mockery.
Who said they were not Lebanese? What source? Sounds to me a Lebanese
propoganda and similar to the typical excuse "they are not truly
Lebanese". Who cares about their origin. They are Lebanese citizens as
Osamah Bin Ladin is a Saudi citizen. It is a fact. |
I don't have a written source, I heard it from my dad, who heard
it on a Lebanese channel. But anyway, its irrelevant if theyre ethnic
Lebanese or not, I just thought I would mention the fact that they
weren't (if in fact the report was accurate).
By the way, why not boycotting Turkish goods if you believe in your
cause. I heard Armenian diary products as good as the Turkish ones. But
I guess they are not available in the States. |
Well our first preference is goods from Armenia, but we mostly buy
goods from Arab countries, since many dishes we eat are in fact Middle
Eastern/Mediterannean, and Armenia doesn't export many of those
ingredients (such as Arabic bread, hummos, mutebel, lebni etc.). Since
just about all Armenian stores also carry products from Turkey, we're
going to end up buying some Turkish products here and there, and they
add up. I would have no problems boycotting Turkish goods, though...I
don't know why Armenian stores don't substitute Turkish goods with more
Arabic goods. It might be because many of these Armenians are very
familiar with Turkish culture, so theyre very sympathetic towards
Turkish foods. Of course, most of the food we buy in general is made in
the States.
I've never tried Turkish dairy products, but I can tell you the
dairy products, fruits and vegetables in Armenia are amazing, by far
the best I've had in my life. No comparison at all to the basic foods
in the States. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure you're right when you say theyre not available in the States.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
|
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance
Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 04:17 |
Originally posted by azimuth
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by ok ge
Originally posted by Maju
Originally posted by ok ge
Turning the argument to be "I am requested to shut my mouth from
criticism" is just a twist to the truth. Go read Daniel Piple
publication, Pat Robertson, Rabbi Yosef Ovadia which all are filled
with criticism and sometimes poor taste of reality, and no Muslim
rioters went in the streets with anger. Why is that?
|
I don't know: why is that?
|
Because it is not about "Muslims being insulted" as it is protrayed
by the sides here. Otherwise, they would have retaliated for all
criticizing articles and insulting comments on the prophet and the
islam and the calls for extermination of Muslims in the west.
|
Then what is it about? I still don't know...
Why
don't you just give a direct affirmative answer instead of making
rethoric questions and negative replies that are no reply to my simple
question? Is that also a Muslim custom? Not to go to the grain and
instead to move around the object of the discussion without adressing
it at all? Or is it just something aprticular of ok Ge?
Here
such attitude would earn you the nick of "Gallego", as it's said (and
is probably true) that if you meet a Galician at the stairs, you will
not find out if he's going up or downstairs.
So,
why did Muslims react to this particular case of Danish free expression
adn not to other seemingly more insulting cases that have happened
before? Can you give a direct reply?
|
are you slow or what?
why you keep asking the same question again and agian? now wite it down or put it as a memo in your desktop. ok
it wasn't the cartoons its the Danish governmnet's position from the cartoons.
|
No need to insult, Azimuth. ok did not say why but just why not.
Now I wonder, are you clairvoyant or what?
Assuming your reply is what ok meant, what I don't know because he's remained silent.
Why do you expect a government to interfere in civil affairs? That's an authoritarian viewpoint.
The Danish government did perfectly staying aside of such silly
discussion. It was and is a matter between a newspaper and a Muslim
organization and maybe the courts. The goevrnment ahs nothing to do
with that.
Are you slow or what?
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Mortaza
Tsar
Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 05:02 |
No need to insult, Azimuth.
I think you should respect freedom of speach, you warrior european.
|
|
malizai_
Sultan
Alcinous
Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 05:52 |
Originally posted by Maju
Why don't you just give a direct affirmative answer instead of making rethoric questions and negative replies that are no reply to my simple question? Is that also a Muslim custom? Not to go to the grain and instead to move around the object of the discussion without adressing it at all? Or is it just something aprticular of ok Ge?
|
You still havent replied to my simple questions, so y complain.
Originally posted by Maju
you give a direct reply?
|
Do u, because i am still waiting.
Originally posted by Maju
No need to insult, Azimuth.
|
But, maju it is your self ordained right to be mocked and vilified unreservedly. Sorry, not right but an obligation.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 06:11 |
Malizai: can you repeat your question? I am unaware of having ignored
you. I would say "sorry" but not after you are clearly trying to insult
me.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 09:01 |
As for me, I don't think Dannish Government should be that much responsible as Moslems ask for. Now, I'm not a Moslem, but my words are for people claiming to support 'freedom of speech':
There's a proverb that says: 'istiqno ozing ke bas; otmese keseke ke': 'Push the fire to yourself; if it does not hurt, so to others'.
Suppose you were in Moslems shoes. Or let's say somebody aims your own family (yeah you people; you people talking about 'freedom of speech'); your mother, your sister, and says: 'Nobody ever died of laughter'
so, would you still talk about 'freedom of speech'?
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
gok_toruk
Arch Duke
9 Oghuz
Joined: 28-Apr-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1831
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 09:03 |
Freedom of Speech; but no offense to people.
Everything has got its own limits.
|
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 10:24 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
As for me, I don't think Dannish Government
should be that much responsible as Moslems ask for. Now, I'm not a
Moslem, but my words are for people claiming to support 'freedom of
speech':
There's a proverb that says: 'istiqno ozing ke bas; otmese keseke
ke': 'Push the fire to yourself; if it does not hurt, so to others'.
Suppose you were in Moslems shoes. Or let's say somebody aims your
own family (yeah you people; you people talking about 'freedom of
speech'); your mother, your sister, and says: 'Nobody ever died of laughter'
so, would you still talk about 'freedom of speech'?
|
C'mon: is Mohammed your sister or your mother? Why do you mix things.
Mocking Mohammed is for you like it is for me if you mocked
Kropotkin...
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 10:29 |
Originally posted by gok_toruk
Freedom of Speech; but no offense to people. |
What people? Did they offend you? You are acting like Mohammed was yourself. It is not the case, obviously.
Mohammed is like any other historical character. Full stop.
Everything has got its own limits. |
Yes, the limit is in respecting people's life and integrity. And the
only ones that are surpassing that limit are Islamist Fascists who are
not just making death threats but also killing people for it.
I don't think we can't support it when they start kiling people.
That's the limit. The only and absolute limit.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 10:50 |
muhammed is nobody to you maju , he means alot to muslims apparently more than you think.
|
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 10:59 |
Originally posted by azimuth
muhammed is nobody to you maju , he means alot to muslims apparently more than you think.
|
That's fine. Christ also means a lot to Christians but caricatures of Jesus don't normally end in massacres nowadays.
I think that the rule that applies to Jesus in a "Christian" country can perfectly be extended to Mohammed, am I wrong?
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 11:24 |
dont think so
and i think its a very wrong comparision, since christans do draw jesus and other christan figurs.
also Christianity isn't that strong in "christan" countries as it was before.
while islam is still strong in many islamic countries.
so maybe i guess islam to muslims today is more like christianity to christans 600 years ago.
|
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 11:53 |
Originally posted by azimuth
dont think so
and i think its a very wrong comparision, since christans do draw jesus and other christan figurs.
also Christianity isn't that strong in "christan" countries as it was before.
while islam is still strong in many islamic countries.
so maybe i guess islam to muslims today is more like christianity to christans 600 years ago.
|
Not just Christianity isn't as strong as it used to... but Islam isn't
strong either. So what rule whould we use: the one that we Europeans
wish. You have no right to impose your prejudices to us. That's
ridiculous! If Mohammed can't be drawn in Saudi Arabia or the EAU, it
is your problem... but if that happens in EU it's not your problem
anymore: it's my problem. And a big problem.
I'm very sorry you are still in 1400... but that's not my problem: it's yours.
What is clear is that you can't, shouldn't and won't impose your values on our society.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:12 |
eh,
i just was trying to give you an idea how is islam to muslims, didnt talk about whos whos problem.
it was a replay to your post above. so no need to jump on a different subject telling me whos whos problem
if its not your problem then why the hell you are so paranoid about it?
its our problem isnt it???
|
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:26 |
It is my problem as it is happening in Europe... where I live.
Actually it's surely my problem too that you seem to be still in
1400... and I hope it doesn't take you 600 years to reach the 21st
century.
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|
Guests
Guest
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:52 |
I think this topic lead to personal attack rather thn healthy discussion..
Muhammad is a 'Rasulullah'. A prophet. I guess all of u know about this. To muslims he is respectable leader for Islam community and all his 'amal' and good deeds he done previously are example for muslims till now. He is the one who brought Islam to this world. Nowadays, there are millions of Muslims. Unfortunately, there was some party who was so ignorance and inconsiderate. These people never think that their action had hurt all muslims sensitivity, not only one part of the world but all around the globe due to this matter with their irresponsible action and it is very very unacceptable for all Muslims. This already have been stressed by many Muslims members here. Cok gec, Seko, azimuth and others.
I guess in continuing this topic just making the things look worst cos some people just dont understand how this issue matter to all muslims. why not just close this topic.
|
|
ulrich von hutten
Tsar
Court Jester
Joined: 01-Nov-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3638
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 12:56 |
Originally posted by azimuth
so maybe i guess islam to muslims today is more like christianity to christans 600 years ago.
|
600 years ago ?
600.000 would hit the bull's eyes
|
|
|
azimuth
Caliph
SlaYer'S SlaYer
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 13:19 |
maju
again i was giving an example how is islam to muslims compared to christianity to christans.
so please dont jump up and down and try to say we are living in year 1600 !! i didnt say that.
i compared it to christianity, and i might be wrong. islam to muslims mostly is the same from its begining, and history proves it.
it didnt change much. BUT again if you want to compare how strong it is to its followers then i compared it to christianity 600 years ago, where religion was a big part of people's lives i think.
islam isnt like christianity, if you compared the two you will find lots of differences.
so my whole point is that Islam isnt and didnt change like christianity changed by time.
yea also whos problem and the rest of "your problem" and "my problem" isnt something i care about, i discuss what i want to discuss here. if you did something and its your problem i would discuss it. like it or not. even though its irrelevant to this issue . just wanted to make it clearer to you.
|
|
|
Maju
King
Joined: 14-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6565
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 10-Feb-2006 at 13:36 |
why not just close this topic. |
Because it would be a like pulling a veil over an ugly wound... it wouldn't help heailing.
Let it bleed...
|
NO GOD, NO MASTER!
|
|