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Scorpius
Shogun
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Topic: A new era of islamic calvinism?? Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 01:42 |
Originally posted by ill_teknique
- the sunna was written and composed by mortal fallible individuals who are no more special than anyone else why would not some of them be deviating from their original version. And even al bukhari was a human being that might've been able to make a mistake. The sunna is there for examples not to be prior to the qu'ran |
Everybody can make mistakes. Even the prophets.
We are all human.
He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.When the blind man came to him.How do you know? He may purify himself. Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.As for the rich man.You gave him your attention.Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.The one who came to you eagerly.And is really reverent.You ignored him.Indeed, this is a reminder.
[80:1-11]
Moreover, God commanded Pophet to Say:
Say: "If I am in error it is to may own loss;if I am on guidence that is so because of what my Lord reveals to me.He is all-hearing and all-too-near.
[34:50]
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Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:15 |
i think condition to islamic reforms.but that is not like cristian's.muslims peoples are use quran and sunnet.but i use just quran (allah's words).im not believe true reach the today to muhammeds says.i think
enough the quran in my life
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konstantinius
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Posted: 25-Aug-2006 at 19:10 |
I am not religious but I was born and baptized Christian Orthodox. Without wanting to offend anyone, let me say this: I have lost my conviction in monotheism. All three monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) carry within the seed of their own destruction which is this: that they are intolerant of others and all carry the element of forceful conversion which leads to persecution and war. If anything, I am tending to side with the Nestorian heresy of the old days which claimed that the godhead is way too complex to be comprehended by our own miniscule human minds and one should focus on one's own personal being in order to attain enlightment. In other words, God is reachable and attainable indivindually by each one of us without the "assistance" of organized religion. But this would jeopardize the comfortable living that muftis, rabbis, and bishops have set up for themselves at the expense of the rest of society for well over a thousand years now so the status qvo remains as is.
On Turkey: Turkey will become more Islamisized only over the dead body of the Turkish military, proud safe keepers of the Kemalist ideals. I believe that the sociological seed for Turkey's Islamic radicalization is there, but it will have to fight against the Kemalist establishment in order to survive. The military is the true power in Turkey, politically as well as economically. The military has replaced traditional Islamic dogmas with a hardcore, potent nationalism that puts the nation first and religion, well, somewhere back there. I don't see this changing in the next decade, sort of a domestic Islamic uprising that the military would crush anyway.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 04:00 |
If anything, I am tending to side with the Nestorian heresy of the old
days which claimed that the godhead is way too complex to be
comprehended by our own miniscule human minds and one should focus on
one's own personal being in order to attain enlightment. In other
words, God is reachable and attainable indivindually by each one of us
without the "assistance" of organized religion. |
Thats pretty much what Islam teaches as well.
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Bulldog
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Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 13:17 |
Turkey will become more Islamisized only over the dead body of the Turkish military, proud safe keepers of the Kemalist ideals. I believe that the sociological seed for Turkey's Islamic radicalization is there, but it will have to fight against the Kemalist establishment in order to survive. The military is the true power in Turkey, politically as well as economically.
Partly correct, its more complex than that however. The army isn't actually "anti-Islamic", today as part of millitary training and millitary schools religion is also taught, and many influential people in the army are proud of the successes of Turkish-Muslims. Infact in the Millitary headquarters there are many paintings in rememberance of the Ottomans, Timurids, Selcuks and the armed forces see's itself as the continuation of "Mete-Hans" army from 200 BC as the Turks of Turkey have never been ruled by another power.
The army and most people in Turkey see the army as the guaranteur protector of the nation. The army's purpose is to serve the country, that included respecting people's beliefs. It's suprising but religion is not supressed instead its quite free and often an important factor which is used.
Alot of Turkish nationalists also have respect for Islam or are quite religous as Islam never was forced on Turks and since they converted they achieved incredible success.
Also alot of religous people have respect for the army as they see it as the continuation of the muslim armies and if it wasn't for the army they would be living under a non-Muslim power and feel more religously oppressed.
The millitary is the main power but what alot of people in the West find hard to comprehend is that the army is actually the most trusted organisation in Turkey. People don't fear or have a problem with the millitary having power. In the millitary people of all social backgrounds have a chance to succeed. In pollitics only the rich and well connected do. Plus all people see polliticians do is cheat, be greedy and if they had the chance they'd sell half the country. In the current environment of Turkey;s location the worst possible action could be the millitary handing all its power over to the polliticians. Unlike in the West, any Tom Dick and Harry can start up a party pump it full of dirty money, use mass media propoganda get elected screw up and then vanish, parties fly and leave in Turkey. Most people have no time for their games and so have far more trust in the millitary whose primary goal is simply for Turkey.
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine
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DocStaph
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 21:09 |
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please!
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DocStaph
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 21:13 |
Originally posted by sedamoun
It's impossible to live exactly like during Mohamed's time (what the Talibans want). Christianity has evolved, just like Islam and Judaism since their creation.
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Did you know the Talibans personally? How is it that you know what they wanted?
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Pregnancy is a Death Sentence to an Afghan Woman!
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 23:27 |
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please! |
In some religions the clergy has a direct say in your afterlife. Must
be in communion with the church, or must be buired on church land etc.
Islam rejects these ideas. The only person who can affect you state is
yourself. Its your actions and your beliefs that will be judged. Not
the opinions of a priest.
There is you, there is God and no-one inbetween.
Edited by Omar al Hashim - 06-Sep-2006 at 23:28
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DocStaph
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 17:30 |
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7 times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from heaven as the legend fortails.
If Rome built the vatican by forgiving the sins in return for compensation, the saudi, is doing the same. In the sense perfoming Hajj nowadays costs thousands and thousands of dollars.... That profit is used to expand the kabaa and use it as a tourist attraction.. Which therefore entails that sins are forgiven for a price...
Would you agree...
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 19:55 |
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an
endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7
times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from
heaven as the legend fortails. |
I haven't heard that before. Do you have a quote from Quran? Even then, its God doing the forgiving not the clergy.
If Rome built the vatican by forgiving the sins in return for
compensation, the saudi, is doing the same. In the sense perfoming Hajj
nowadays costs thousands and thousands of dollars.... That profit is
used to expand the kabaa and use it as a tourist attraction.. Which
therefore entails that sins are forgiven for a price...
Would you agree... |
No, not really. Selling forgiveness at a price, is not the same as spending money to get to Hajj. Well, I suppose it depends on the motives of that person actually, but since only God is a judge of our intentions we get back to the no intercessors between you and God part.
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Eondt
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 09:25 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
How So Omar? Care to elaborate on your statment please! |
In some religions the clergy has a direct say in your afterlife. Must be in communion with the church, or must be buired on church land etc. Islam rejects these ideas. The only person who can affect you state is yourself. Its your actions and your beliefs that will be judged. Not the opinions of a priest.
There is you, there is God and no-one inbetween.
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Well said. The same principle applies in Christianity. There is you and you're relationship with God. The curch is meant to provide guidance and support, not dictate conditions for the afterlife. There might have been misrepresentations by the church in the past (its headed by humans after-all) but this is exactly the sort of thing the reformists like Martin Luther were changing. Unfortunately humans corrupt everything they touch and every now-and-again we need to step back and look at ourselves and what we are doing.
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DocStaph
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:42 |
Well said. The same principle applies in Christianity. There is you and you're relationship with God. The curch is meant to provide guidance and support, not dictate conditions for the afterlife. There might have been misrepresentations by the church in the past (its headed by humans after-all) but this is exactly the sort of thing the reformists like Martin Luther were changing. Unfortunately humans corrupt everything they touch and every now-and-again we need to step back and look at ourselves and what we are doing. |
The Church is corrupt! The mosques are corrupt and the synogues are corrupt as well! A wise man once stated!
"The church was built by the Romans and runned by the Jews" There is more to this quote, I have to remember it properly.....
Martin Luther was good man indeed! He wanted to bring humanity back to its rightful saviour!
Edited by DocStaph - 08-Sep-2006 at 19:42
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DocStaph
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 19:46 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim. I haven't heard that before. Do you have a quote from Quran?
Even then, its God doing the forgiving not the clergy.
Would you agree..
No, not really. Selling forgiveness at a price, is not the same as spending money to get to Hajj. Well, I suppose it depends on the motives of that person actually, but since only God is a judge of our intentions we get back to the no intercessors between you and God part. [/QUOTE
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute.
Edited by DocStaph - 08-Sep-2006 at 19:47
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Scorpius
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:42 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Nice Shot! But nevertheless, by performing the hajj, one entails to an endless past of sins forgiven, just by swarming around the kabaa 7 times and kissing a rock which could possible be a meteorite from heaven as the legend fortails. |
In which sura it is said that by doing Hajj, all of your past sins are forgiven?
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Scorpius
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Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 20:50 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Your assumption is based on doing Hajj makes your past sins forgiven and yet I now realized Omar has asked you (before me in my previous post) in which sura you read it and as long as I know, there is none. So if you provide us the sura you are using for your claim then we can talk about it with knowledge.
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 01:21 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing
tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because
those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly
basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Sorry, doesn't work like that. Hajj is only compulsory if you can
afford it, if you can't your excused and the only judge to whether you
can afford it? God.
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DocStaph
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 13:59 |
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim
Originally posted by DocStaph
Its the same! $5000 spent to live in luxury while performing tawab. The more money you have, the more sins forgiven. Why? Because those with a huge salary will be able to perform hajj on a yearly basis, compared to those who are poor and destitute. |
Sorry, doesn't work like that. Hajj is only compulsory if you can afford it, if you can't your excused and the only judge to whether you can afford it? God.
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Ahhh so the rich will be able to complet the five pillars of islam, and the poor can only hope and dream to complete the last pillar...Ahhh sorrows..
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DocStaph
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 14:00 |
Originally posted by Scorpius
Your assumption is based on doing Hajj makes your past sins forgiven and yet I now realized Omar has asked you (before me in my previous post) in which sura you read it and as long as I know, there is none. So if you provide us the sura you are using for your claim then we can talk about it with knowledge. |
Do you live by the words of the Quran?
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Scorpius
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 18:23 |
Originally posted by DocStaph
Do you live by the words of the Quran? |
Only God knows. I am doing my best but why do u ask this question I don't get it ?
I simply ask your source of information since you are basing your discussion on something I am not aware of and never read before in Quran.
and still I am waiting for your answer. Would you please inform this soul in which sura/verses in Quran you read that Hajj cleans all your past sins?
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Omar al Hashim
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Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 19:52 |
Ahhh so the rich will be able to complet the five pillars of
islam, and the poor can only hope and dream to complete the last
pillar...Ahhh sorrows.. |
No. The poor can complete the hajj requirement by fasting. See [2:196]. After a brief search through the Qurans index on the USC site. I can't find any mention of Hajj cleansing your past sins.
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