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What Is Jihad----According to Quran
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Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What Is Jihad----According to Quran
    Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 06:14

 he is a murder he targets muslims civilian too.

In Iraq,Jordan,Saudi Arabia,Eygpt,Pakistan and Afghanistan,He represents himself.

 Usama case  is a results of the  fanatics schools in Saudi Arabia combined with the West policy and Israel behaviour against Islam.
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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 06:41
Palestinian - Israelian problem must be solved somehow, but just by means of negotiations, other ways like Intifada, terrorism are wrong. American policy is unfair for Palestinians but terrorism make the things worse. For me, at least, Osama made the big mistake can a muslim could do. 
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 06:57

American policy or Israel policy against them is not unfair but, unhuman.So  they are fighting back unhuman way.

An arab woman and child just killed new by israel army.  I wont count this two as a military target.

before advicing Palestinian, you should take care unhuman way treated against them.

 
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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 08:27
I don't want to start a war, but how you could be so upset for a child and an woman (it's  unquestionable and untolerable act) but so tolerant for hundred deaths of muslim civilians in iraq. Try to judge with the same measure; about the israel you haven't the power to change the situation but inside the islamic world is your duty, the educated people, to change. Don't blame, like us, in the communist regime and after, somebody else fault. We in 1990, 1991, 1999 killed each other, like you now, and i know what i'm talking about, was our fault, our lack of education. That must be your job, to educate people, not to convince the rest of the world that is israel and us fault.

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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 08:50

I don't want to start a war, but how you could be so upset for a child and an woman (it's  unquestionable and untolerable act) but so tolerant for hundred deaths of muslim civilians in iraq.

I am not tolerant, but one of this is a war. I dont  think israel open a  war against this two. human lost  at war  is acceptable, but human lost at torture or killing  civilian without war is not.

about the israel you haven't the power to change the situation but inside the islamic world is your duty, the educated people, to change.

can I give any alternatives?(I am talking about Palestinian  issue not ladin, he is mad.)  why  do you think, they will listen other, and just give  their lands to israel.

Don't blame, like us, in the communist regime and after, somebody else fault. We in 1990, 1991, 1999 killed each other, like you now, and i know what i'm talking about, was our fault, our lack of education. That must be your job, to educate people, not to convince the rest of the world that is israel and us fault.

I am not  blaming anyone, but If you cannot give any good alternatives why should they care for us.would you?

one can begin a war, but for peace two should be agree.

 

 
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Ahmed The Fighter View Drop Down
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Posts: 1106 		  Quote Ahmed The Fighter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 15:21

 We don't blame anyone one but every issue have it's reasons and we try to explain these reasons.

As Mortaza said Usama is mad but if you back a 25 years,Usama was america's ally, they supported him and sent him to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

I am from Iraq and I am tolerant and very Sympathtic  with my people we suffering from terror and American policy in Iraq is effectivless,But that don't prevent me to be tolerant for other cases like Palstine,11 Sept or any terrorism attack.

any suicide operation is unacceptable,I am not here to justify the terror by  any way because I am victim of it.

I don't support the terrorism attacks in palestine  against jew civilians,but imagine their situation and tell me why Israel dosen't move on in roadmap and still building the wall?
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Posts: 1070 		  Quote Jhangora Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 10:53
Originally posted by azimuth

ok i will try to answer you briefly.

Originally posted by Jhangora

I would like to know  views of members on Jihad.

What is Jihad.Under which circumstances is it obligatory for a Muslim/an Islamic country to declare Jihad

Obligatory when the nation and its religion is under threat.

for example  if Damascus is under attack by others who want to affect the religion and destory the country its Obegatory for people of Damascus to participate in Jihad not Obligatory for people living in Riyad BUT people of Riyad are obligated to support and help people in Damascus.

the only difference is that people in Riyad dont have to go as a whole army to defend Damascus but sent part of it.

 

Originally posted by Jhangora

.When an Islamic nation declares Jihad on a non-islamic nation is it obligatory for that nation to make a formal proclaimation of Jihad.Is Jihad just war or there are different kinds of Jihad {including peaceful ones}
 

AFAIK Not Obligatory but someway or another people will know.

its a war like any other wars except this one's reason is to defend the religion of Islam and the people who belive in it.

and yes there are different types of Jihad for example when a muslim man/woman hold hiself/hersef from commiting a sin its Jihad. 

Originally posted by Jhangora

Who has the authority to declare Jihad and on whom.What is the punishment if it is found out that the reasons for which Jihad was made werent valid ones.

What does the Quran say regarding Jihad.

the Ruler of a country/state or nation is the one who has the authority to declare Jihad, on the people the ruler rules.

its a war as i stated and the reasons are clear so there are no punishments for making a war on fase reasons.IF there are any which i dont know like a ruler making a propaganda about other nation attacking us to destroy our religion and ordered people to go to jihad i think this ruler should be killed. but i dont know.

the Quran says that people who makes Jihad by themselvs and their money are rewared heaven.

if you want verses i will look for them .

 

Since the topic has gone off-track I request you to look for verses.Then we can look at individual cases.Whether they are valid or invalid.
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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 18:08
Originally posted by Mortaza

American policy or Israel policy against them is not unfair but, unhuman.So  they are fighting back unhuman way.

An arab woman and child just killed new by israel army.  I wont count this two as a military target.

before advicing Palestinian, you should take care unhuman way treated against them.

 

Palestinains walk around throwing rocks at soldiers, launching bombs at cities and running back into gaza strip. The whole conflict is you attack me I attack you.

Do you really believe when Israel launches bombs to attack terrorists, and the missle misses or missle also kills some civilians they do this purposely? I am not saying it is right, but it is not on purpose.

But when Palestinians start running into cafes yelling "Allah give me strength" and blowing themselves up to kill others, now that is purposely killing innocents.
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 18:36
Originally posted by strategos

Do you really believe when Israel launches bombs to attack terrorists, and the missle misses or missle also kills some civilians they do this purposely?


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.


But when Palestinians start running into cafes yelling "Allah give me strength" and blowing themselves up to kill others, now that is purposely killing innocents.



No Israeli is innocent: they support their terrorist state that shouldn't exist.

I just defined Israel in another topic as a neo-Crusader state. That's the truth. I also found in another topic (quoted from CIA) that 80% of Israelis are native from foreing countries. They are not Palestinians: they are Europeans, Nordamericans, etc. Israel is a shame of genocidal colony, not in the 18th or 19th century but in our time. And that is just simply unbearable. Do you blame Native Americans for attacking US colonists? I don't. They were defending their land and their existence, exactly like Palestinians do now.

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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 19:26

In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? Do they really expect to kill off enough innocents to kill off all Palestinians? Lets not be foolish..,

 

You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.
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Posts: 180 		  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 00:27
Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.

So its okay to pass on their missery to someone else who had nothing to do with their bloody genocide.


Israelis take the land = Palestinian suicide bomber kills israelis= Israel retaliates= more palestinian suicide bombers.

Many seem to overlook that first factor in the conflict, and just start with the second one.
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 00:39
Originally posted by strategos


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? Do they really expect to kill off enough innocents to kill off all Palestinians? Lets not be foolish..,

 

You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.


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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 00:42
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by strategos


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? Do they really expect to kill off enough innocents to kill off all Palestinians? Lets not be foolish..,

 

You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.


jenin

Jenin?
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Posts: 636 		  Quote ill_teknique Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 01:25
Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by strategos


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? Do they really expect to kill off enough innocents to kill off all Palestinians? Lets not be foolish..,

 

You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.


jenin

Jenin?



The massacre in Jenin. 
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Posts: 1096 		  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 01:51
Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by strategos

Originally posted by ill_teknique

Originally posted by strategos


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? Do they really expect to kill off enough innocents to kill off all Palestinians? Lets not be foolish..,

 

You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.


jenin

Jenin?



The massacre in Jenin. 

I was actually mispronouncing the word, my mistake. I will still hold to what I said.

And let us discuss the massacres of jenin in another topic..

 
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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 11:13
Originally posted by strategos


In most cases absolutely yes. Israel is terrorist state number one but they have the fantasmaoric protection of the Eagle.

 

What do they have to gain? What does Israel have to gain by killing innocent civilians? 


The country, US and International Zionist organizations subsidies...

 


You say these people are just Europeans and Americans. Most did not migrate for the fun of it, many migrated bcause of the terror they had endured for 10 years in Europe and a bloody Genocide. I do not blame them moving out of Europe.



I'm sorry but only 20% of native Jewish Israelis means that most of them migrated later and for diferent reasons. American Jews suffered no persecution for instance and yet they are 1/3 of all colonists.

The Holocaust is a worn off bad excuse. If it was for that, they should have founded Israel in Bavaria. As someone has said: being victim doesn't give you the right to become murderer yourself.

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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 15:30
I was going to post a rebuttal Maju but I support Israel and their right to exist peacefully but that is for another thread. I will stick to topic.
Jihad- From what I have read there is the greater Jihad and lesser Jihad.
The greater being that inner struggle that most humans deal with spiritually. The lesser being conflict with the infidel whether it is defensive or offensive. There have been examples of both in current events and history. Those who take the faith to its core ideology would go on the offensive by virtue of the fact that the Infidel has rejected Mohammad as Allah's only Prophet and the true religion. Damascus is an example in history; it was once a Christian city under the rule of the Byzantine Empire. It was attacked as part of a design to expand the rule of Islam and either convert the Greek speaking inhabitants or force them into dhimmitude, or second class citizenship and slavery. Modern examples are Sudan, Nigeria and the Philippines. Osama on several occasions has given the invitation for Americans to embrace Allah prior to 9/11.
I would agree that the majority of Muslims in the world do not take it to that extreme otherwise things would be much worse. I have been called anti Muslim but I just cannot understand why Muslims are hurting Muslims. I have read some theories but it still hurts to see innocent children die and there is nothing I can do about it. It does not matter to me if they are Muslims or whatever, they are still innocent of the conflict.
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Well, i think that Jihad is one of the worst things ever made by a human against another human.The eastern roman empire is a good example and i agree with eaglecap.The Byzantines did not attack the Muslims first,yet after the battle of Yarmuk(20 August 636A.D) the whole Middle east was under the control of the Muslims.Not to mention what happened in Egypt where the city of Alexandria was almost burnt to the ground.The Muslims didn't stop there.They even started raiding greek-speaking and christian Asia Minor and they besieged Constantinople in 673.They attempted that again and again but they failed all the times.However the Ottomans who also declared Jihad against the Byzantines finally managed to capture the city of Constantine.What happened during these times in Asia minor is beyond imagination,  slaughter of those who kept their christian faith(whole cities disappeared from the face of earth),mass conversions to Islam for those who were not brave enough not to give up their faith and the culture of their ancestors,and they left some people with their former religion so as to pay the taxes(dhimmi) and being in fact the slaves of the Muslims.
The same things happened also in the Balkans during the Ottoman era.
According to Quran it is an obligation for a Muslim to attack neighbouring countries if they are not Muslims too.From what i have read the Muslims raiders did the jihad mostly for the looting since this occupation was the only thing the desert nomads knew how to do well....
What they managed to do was to destroy the cradle of Greco-Roman civilisation in the east.(Asia Minor,Egypt,Syria,and finally Greece)


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Posts: 6565 		  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 18:57
Originally posted by RomiosArktos


According to Quran it is an obligation for a Muslim to attack neighbouring countries if they are not Muslims too.


This is a very intersting point and one of the main points of Western (or western-like) criticism of Islam as doctrine. The other two are the admixture of politics and society with religion (theocracy) and the discrimination against women (sexism, patriarchy). Maybe I could add a 4th: sexual repression (but my viewpoint would be too liberal even for most westerners and far easterners) - anyhow it is inside "Patriarchy".

Focussing in this issue of jihad as a divine right to make war against any non-Muslim, it's obvious that any sort of plural international system can't accept that premise. How do Muslims of today see this aspect of Jihad?

Apparently early Muslims believed that they had the divine right to ask for tribute or coversion to their neighbours - or else declare jihad. That was how the political Islam, the Caliphate expanded at the expense of weak neighbours. In this sense, Islam is seen by many as an agressive and militarist doctrine: a warrying cult (much as Judaism was before it, let's be fair).

Some in the West, specially fundamentalist Christians wave this ghost of militant Islam as a warning and as a excuse for any sort of neo-Crusades.

How do Muslims see all this?

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 19:05

Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by RomiosArktos


According to Quran it is an obligation for a Muslim to attack neighbouring countries if they are not Muslims too.


This is a very intersting point and one of the main points of Western (or western-like) criticism of Islam as doctrine. The other two are the admixture of politics and society with religion (theocracy) and the discrimination against women (sexism, patriarchy). Maybe I could add a 4th: sexual repression (but my viewpoint would be too liberal even for most westerners and far easterners) - anyhow it is inside "Patriarchy".

Did you ever read the Thousand and One Nights? It was Christian countries that banned it - at least the unexpurgated version.


 
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