Huns(Xiongnu), Turks(Tujue) and Mongols

About the Tokharians: http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm

the easternmost group of indo-europeans

Hi Everybody,

I am a new user, and the amount of information presented in this discussion has JUST AMAZED ME!

I want to thank you all for such a nice thread. I am quite interested in the origins of Turks and the diversion of language families in the steppes of Middle Asia. Being very poorly-informed on the issue compared to you guys , instead of babling here, I would like to ask for some suggestions as to what to read on the topic.

I'd greatly appreciate the names of books or authors on Turks or Turkic languages if you can give me couple of them.

Thanks all,

Murat.

The Hun tribes, or as the Chinese called them the Xiongnu or Xiongnu stemmed basically from the Siberian branch of the Mongolian race. During the third and second centuries BCE they rose to great power and became a tribal confederation. During Emperor Mo-tun reign (208-175 BCE), the Xiongnu were at the zenith of their might and occupied a huge territory from Lake Baikal on the north to the Ordos plateau on the south and the Liao River on the east. By 55-34 BCE their political influence reached as far as the lower Volga and the Ureal foothills. This expansion westwards significantly increased the trade with the western world. The trade route was leading now from the west through the northern oasis of east Turkestan to the Xiongnus' headquarters in north Mongolia and southward to north China.

The basis of the Xiongnus' economy was herding, mostly pastoral nomads who lived in felt-cobbled tents, using bow and arrow from horseback. By the first century BCE there were also large settled populations with well-developed agriculture of millet, barley and wheat. The production of crafts flourished as wll, iron and bronze was smelted in their workshops and fine tools, weaponry, household utensils, jewelry and ceramics were produced.

Chinese sources inform us that the Xiongnu worshiped the sun, moon, heaven, earth, and to their ancestors. They had shamans or medicine men who had great influence over the tribesmen. The horse played a leading role in the herder's migration, hunting and war. In special ceremonies they sacrificed white horses and drank the blood. When a man died his widows were married either to a younger brother or a son. When a great chief died, concubines and retainers were often killed and buried with him. The Xiongnu apparently had no writing. It is believed that they spoke one of the Turkic languages (Guniley, 1960, pp. 48-49; Meanchen-Helfen, 1973, pp. 376-443). However, the question of language is far from being resolved.

During the newly established Chinese Han dynasty (AD 206-220), China expanded its borders and the Xiongnu empire lost ground. Weakened by the loss of men and animals because of their constant battles, and the split by internal dissension, the tribes of the confederation began one by one to accept a position of vassalage under China. The northern Xiongnu moved from Outer Mongolia into what was than Dzaungaria, where they conquered a new but short lived empire. With the beheading of their leader by a Chinese army the group disappeared from history.

The southern Xiongnu, who replaced their northern kindred in Outer Mongolia, remained at peace with China for some years. With the turn of the Christian Era these Xiongnu extended their power west into Dzungaria and reasserted their independence from China, although some tribes along the borderlands remained vassals of the Chinese and served as buffers against their independent kinsmen. In the first of this millenium the Hsien Pei, a Tungusic or Mongol people, appeared north of China and conquered Mongolia, forcing the independent Xiongnu into Dzungaria. A century later the Hsien Pei also gained control of Dzungaria. The Xiongnu who had remained on the borders of China lingered on in history until the fifth century. Those who were forced out of Dzungaria by the Hsien Pei disappeared from notice in A.D. 170.

Originally posted by ihsan That is even weirder, so he contradicts with his Empire of the Steppes

enjoy thumbing through this book, it is so out of date..
it must be. I wonder overall, what percentage of it is accurate.

The word Gunna is not avaible in Turkic inscriptions. In Old Turkic, words don't start with "G/Gh".

Ok. I am actually "newuser". I was typing the reply at school today and when I logged on to my school account and went online to AE, I was logged on to AE already as "newuser" (for some unknown reason), whoever created that account (maybe I forgot that it was my account, dunno). For the sake of convenience, I just used that username and typed in my reply.

Edited by therecanbeonlywar!

"Really? Care to elaborate more on the Sakas of Dzungaria? I haven't encountered any sources (at least online) that directly say the Sakas controlled territories in Dzungaria. The kurgans in the Altai area were similar to the Scythians culturally but they were technically not Scythians, at least not racially."

 

The primary sources listed come from Shi Ji, the Sakas are known as the Se in Chinese. They were first pushed out by the Wusun and later the Yue Shi. Nothing more is recorded other than greek record at the same time recording the sakas overruning the Greco Bactrian kingdoms. So the Se in all probability is the same people as the Sakas which the Greek and chinese record of geography seem to confirm and its already quite established in the historical society.

The real Huns couldn't have been Mongolic, there are no evidences to proove that.

Originally posted by cliveersknell The Wuhuan are a branch of Xianbei people that migrated from the Hulun Buir steppes to northern Liaoning , Jilin and even Jehol, they eventually became the Qidan. r's Clive

That's a very interesting idea. Where did you get this idea?

But, in so far as I remember, Kitan's did not related themseves to Ohaan (Wuhuan).