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Polish Hussaria and "Ogniem i Mieczem"

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Pretorian
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  Quote HistoryGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish Hussaria and "Ogniem i Mieczem"
    Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 17:41
Is the movie Ogniem i Mieczem signifacantly historic to the real Polish Hussars back in the 16th-18th centuries?
هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Dec-2005 at 17:51
No, the tactics of hussaria, the first battle in the movie, everything is inacurate and it was criticised by the historians but the movie makers said that they dont care.
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  Quote Surenas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 01:21
What were wrong with the tactic's?
just asking i'm really interested in the polish Husaria's (excuse the spelling) I think they're the greatest heavy ca. ever!
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 05:37
They were the greatest cavalry. The loss at Zolte wody were due to betrayal of Polish cossack officers who betrayed the polish army last minute according to the book "Ogniem i Mieczem". In the movie they showed the Husars soaking in the rain and mud waiting for the right time to attack, the Husaria would never fall for such a trick, they were almost always on the offensive, they had to charge the Russians at Kluszyn about 10 times or more to break the lines, they would not be on the defensive they were like tanks duringt hose times. Hoffman didnt do a good job in showing the Husaria in its glory, but in Potop he sure did against the swedes, that husaria charge is more accurate i think
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 13:30

If i remember well really the battle of Zolte Wody took about 3 weeks, not 2 days.

The real history looks different than presented in the movie:

Khmielnitski (Chmielnicki in polish) leaves sitch in the 22 april with about 8000 soldiers.

Polish army leaves 21st april and is divided on 3 groups:

1. First group is about 5000 soldiers under Nicolaus Potocki. They are supposed to mobilise local nobles and gather more troops.

2. Second group under comand of young and unexperienced Stephen Potocki is about 3000 soldiers, all cavalry but there is only 1 banner of hussars (120-150 soldiers). Half of those soldiers - 1500 are registered cossacks.

3. Third group is 4000 cavalry, almosy all are registered cossacks, the only different regiment are German dragoons. This group is leaded by colonel Stanislaw Krzyczewski - friend of Khmielnitski. this group was traveling by Dniepr River on the boats.

The division of polish army on 3 parts was the first reason of the defeat. The group #2 under Stephen Potocki was marching fast, about 200 km a week. They soon lost contact with the group which was on the boats.

Meantime Krzyczewski stopped the boats and with small unit of soldiers left his forces. He went to nearby fort where he has met with Khmielnitski. Next he came back to his army (group #3).

29th april the army (group #2) of young Stephen Potocki meets with the army of Khmielnitski and the battle begins. Having 3000 men (between them only 120-150 were hussars) against 8000 Cossacks and Tartars Potocki entranched his army and fortified his camp. Stephen Potocki sent letter to his father (group army #1 which was left far behind) and asked for reinforcements. So Nicolaus Potocki decided to help his son and leaves. Khmielnitski left most of his army fighting with young Potocki (army #2) and with small forces left and headed to meet with Krzyczewski (polish army #3). Krzyczewski and his cossacks betrayed and joined to Khmielnitski. Those few who stayed loyal are being executed. Between them after fierce fight were killed all the German Dragoons who refused to join to Cossacks. So the army of Khmielnitski killed those 200 Germans and its number was raised by about 3800 registered cossacks and polish forces became smaller by 4000 men. The traitors were determined because after betraying and killing the Germans they couldnt hope for nothing but death from Poles. With this new army Khmielnitski comes back to Zolte Wody and now his army is 12000 against 3000 soldiers of Stephen Potocki. After arrive of Khmielnitski the cossacks of Potocki (1500 soldiers) betrayed and joined to the cossack army. Now Stephen Potocki has only 1500 men against about 15000 of Khmielnitski because all the time the new cossacks and paesants were coming to join him at Zolte Wody. From those 1500 another 200 dragoons desrted and joined to Khmielnitski (they were recruited from ukrainian paesants). The situation of Stephen Potocki and his army became critical. They have already fought many times, repulsed many attacks, killed many of the attackers but are tired and almost didnt sleep for many days. Stephen Potocki decided to retreat by surprise attack and cuting his road by saber trough the enemy army. His plan was succesfull, Polish forces broke the chain of besiegers and the remaining soldiers of Potocki are heading toward Krylov, fortified town. At 16th may the horde of Tartars caught moving polish army but attack was repulsed. But the next attack of Tatars is succesfull, all Poles including Potocki are killed. When it happend the army of Nicolaus Potocki (grp # 1) was about 100 km from the army of his son (grp #2). When Nicolaus Potocki was informed about death of his son and betrayal of Krzyczewski and about the fact that army of Khmielnitski was now numbering about 20000 soldiers he decided to retreat. During all the 18 days of defence the banner of hussars of young Potocki was charging many times, often saving the situation and achieving victory, forcing thousands of enemies to flee in panic from the battlefield. Hussaria during whole 18 days of battle fought well and almost didnt sleep.



Edited by Mosquito
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Surenas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 20:10
When is the book and movie set? sorry my polish history is really bad!
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  Quote Surenas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 20:31
Who in your opinion was the best polish cavalry commander and what years did his career spand?
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 20:49

Originally posted by Surenas

When is the book and movie set? sorry my polish history is really bad!

Years 1648-1655, rebelion of cossack in Ukraine.

 

Originally posted by Surenas

Who in your opinion was the best polish cavalry commander and what years did his career spand?

 

There is a different topic about it.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 03:04

Well, I really like the way how Sienkiewicz pictures the Army Group 3 betraying but the Germans staying loyal and dying. Well, still, Hussars fought and died, and there were few, if all of the cavalry would have been Hussars then there might have been some changes.

What about other battles? They lasted longer too?

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 11:13

Which battles exactly do you mean? The next after Zte Wody? Battle of Korsun?

Pity that TJK is not here, he is much better than me in this time period.

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote HistoryGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 16:22
I watched With Fire and Sword. But, I was dissapointed to find that it ends with only Part 1 and Part 2. It's so dissapointing to not see the end, since it ends with a noble showing the Hetman's Bulava... I am sure there is another part to it... Can anyone tell me what it's called so I can finish watching the movie?
هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2006 at 16:59

Its a trilogy. "With Fire and Sword" is a first part. "The Deluge" is a second part. "Sir Wolodyjowski" (or "Colonel Wolodyjowski") is a third part. All was filmed by Jerzy Hoffman. In my opinion "The Deluge" is the best of those movies.

The oldest one is "Colonel Wolodyjowski" (1969), later was made "Deluge"(1974) and "With Fire and Sword" was filmed last.

 

Picture is B&W but movie was made in colour.

 

 

 

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 12:06
WEll, I was most of all thinking about the prettyy nasty battle between COssacks and Poles and Tartars... In the book it is the lat battle and I believe it was in With the FIre and the Sword.
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 14:26
Battle of Beresteczko, the battle was a huge one which lasted about 2 days, the Poles had a force of around 57,000 and the Ukrainians had 100,000 plus 25,000 Tatar cavalry. It was a great victory for the Poles.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 09:24
No, not that one.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2006 at 09:30
I was talking about Zborov or Khotim, I think it was Zborov.
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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2006 at 04:57
Zbaraz? That was a Siege, but I dont know you said it was the last batle in Ogniem i Mieczem, and if you are tlaking about that one then it IS Beresteczko.
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:39
More movie stills would be great!
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 14:16

Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

More movie stills would be great!

Well, as you wish:

Cossacks in the "Ogniem i Mieczem" (With fire and sword)

Polish husars:

battle with Tatars

 

 

"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 06:21
Excellent!
Thank you very much.
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