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demon
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Topic: Historical annoyances. Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 20:53 |
Oh... I think I mixed up readings
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Grrr..
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Evildoer
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Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 21:30 |
I think the CE, BCE one is purely stupid - before Christ's birth, all things that occured were "uncommon".... Cyrus must have been able to fly and Caesar must have been able to spew flames from his mouth...
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 04:04 |
Originally posted by Cywr
im not too sure what your saying but hitler refuse to shake Jessie Owen's hands after winning a couple gold medals when one of his advisers suggested he do so...hitler was reported to say "you expect me to shake hands with a negro?" |
No, Hitler only shook people's hands on the first day, after that, he just sat in the stand with the crowd, practicing his stiff wave. He did wave at Jessie, and smiled at him, but didn't specificly refuse to shake his hand, as he wasn't shaking anyone's hand that day. Upon returning to the US after the Olympics, he was however snubbed by Roosevelt. Jessie Owens' autobigraphy should be proof enough. Its one of those things that started as popular myth, but has began to seep into the classrooms of late. Hitler did refuse to shake hands with some non-Germans on the first day, but Jessie Owens was not amoungst them.
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where did you get this information from? because i have read and listened from numerous sources that it was otherwise, and Hitler did refuse to shake hands with Owens after the 100m race and that he stormed out in frustration.
but im not disputing what you say Roosevelt said nor the first day hand shake bussiness.
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Cywr
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 04:11 |
http://hnn.us/articles/571.html
The Wiki also has some mentions, can't renember under what.
Also, his autobiography clears the issue up too.
Originally posted by The Wiki
A persistent myth has grown up that Hitler had intended to use the games to promote "Aryan superiority", and was in the
stadium for some of Owens' events but had refused to acknowledge him after his remarkable performances. In fact, in Owens'
Autobiography, The Jesse Owens Story, Owens himself recounted how Hitler had stood up and waved to him:
"When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad
taste in criticizing the man of the hour in Germany." - Jesse Owens, The Jesse Owens Story, 1970. |
Edited by Cywr
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Arrrgh!!"
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Berosus
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 05:07 |
Originally posted by Cywr
That Athens was more of an oligarchy of the elite than a modern
represenative democracy is hardly controversial. They did however, have
a form of direct democracy in place, where by the voters (only males of
a certain status) could vote directly on decisions, as opposed to just
voting for suits, which makes them in that little niche, more
democratic than many modern democracies.
Still, the Swiss do it better.
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I said the same thing in a history paper; the Dutch also did a pretty
good job when it came to running a country without a king. My
impression is that other Europeans didn't want to follow the Swiss and
Dutch examples because they noted that both countries have unusual
geography, and figured that democracy wouldn't work elsewhere for that
reason. Instead they waited until England tried it, followed by
the United States and France.
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Nothing truly great is achieved through moderation.--Prof. M.A.R. Barker
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Berosus
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 05:16 |
Originally posted by lars573
Egypt didn't have slaves at all in the
Greek/Roman/European/southern US sense. They paid taxes in a way that
could be confused with slavery. The average egyptian peasant farmer
paid taxes by giving the pharaohs government a portion of his harvest
25% IIRC, and manual labour on public works projects while the nile was
in flood. Where he got room and borad and medical care. On his flooded
farm lands he would get jack. |
Right, and did you hear what the archaeologists found when they
excavated the camp of the pyramid builders, in addition to the fact
that the food and health care were good? Most of the people
buried in the local cemetery were women and children, meaning that the
workers brought their families with them. And they came from
every part of Egypt, instead of being dragged off the nearest
farms. Altogether it seems to me that the Egyptians
believed pyramid work was both a good-paying job and a patriotic duty,
so I don't think they had much trouble recruiting people to do it.
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Nothing truly great is achieved through moderation.--Prof. M.A.R. Barker
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Berosus
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 05:24 |
Originally posted by Zulufrog
Wrageowrapper, what
exactly did alexander the great do to be a real arse whole. i know that
later on in his campaigns through persia he began to become more
'persian' by wearing their kind of gouns, and adopting their kind of
culture whilst neglecting that of his own...also the ordering the
raising of Persepolis to his soldiers when they went on looting and
raping sprees...but is there more? |
There certainly is. Besides the destruction of Persepolis, a lot
of people got killed everywhere he went, especially those close to him,
like Cleitus and Parmenion. And you may have heard how he
crucified the physician who failed to cure his best friend,
Hephaestion, when he drank himself to death.
Have you read "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson? At
the end of the chapter on Arbela/Gaugamela, he suggests that Alexander
had a lot more in common with Adolf Hitler than we'd like to admit; the
main difference between them is that Alexander never lost a
battle. If Alexander had been killed at the Granicus or Issus, or
if Hitler had succeeded in destroying the Soviet Union at Stalingrad,
wouldn't we look at both characters very differently today?
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Nothing truly great is achieved through moderation.--Prof. M.A.R. Barker
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Yiannis
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:07 |
Originally posted by Berosus
Have you read "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Davis Hanson? At the end of the chapter on Arbela/Gaugamela, he suggests that Alexander had a lot more in common with Adolf Hitler than we'd like to admit; the main difference between them is that Alexander never lost a battle. If Alexander had been killed at the Granicus or Issus, or if Hitler had succeeded in destroying the Soviet Union at Stalingrad, wouldn't we look at both characters very differently today?
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Good that you have read the book but (although me makes this observation) he puts in in a totally different meaning than you try to present it. The whole chapter is in praise of Alexander's genious if you recall
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Cywr
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:19 |
I've heard that book is a load of crap.
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Arrrgh!!"
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:29 |
Originally posted by Berosus
I said the same thing in a history paper; the Dutch also did a pretty
good job when it came to running a country without a king. My
impression is that other Europeans didn't want to follow the Swiss and
Dutch examples because they noted that both countries have unusual
geography, and figured that democracy wouldn't work elsewhere for that
reason. Instead they waited until England tried it, followed by
the United States and France.
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The Netherlands were no democracy until 1848, and they did never claim
that. Until 1795 'the Republic of the 7 United Netherlands' was a
republic. Strangely enough, the head of state, the stadtholder, was
hereditary. But most power was in the hands of an elite, so it was an
oligarchy.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:43 |
Originally posted by Cywr
I've heard that book is a load of crap. |
It depends on your point of view. It certainly does not pass unnoticed. One should remember that Hanson is a conservative and tends to make modern day projections of history. If you go past that, his books makes both an interesting read and a point of refference plus his theories are well founded.
I would suggest you to read it Cywr. It is certainly something that Classicists would approve and history-revisionists would burn.
Edited by Yiannis
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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Cywr
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:47 |
But the Dutch had, on a local level, a form of consensus democracy at a fairly early date. Only on a local community level though, and not on a state level.
Its this that formed the part of the historic basis for the so called 'polder model' or more recent times. At least, IIRC.
Yiannis, its more that he makes very liberal generalisations, and
intentionaly ignores anything that doesn't fit with his ideas.
Edited by Cywr
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Arrrgh!!"
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Yiannis
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:56 |
Originally posted by Cywr
intentionaly ignores anything that doesn't fit with his ideas.
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That's common practice amongst most historians They stick stubbornly to their opinions.
Seriously now, not that much as you may think. I'll insist on you reading the book and then comment...
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The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics
Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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JanusRook
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 12:45 |
where did you get this information from? because i have read and listened from numerous sources that it was otherwise, and Hitler did refuse to shake hands with Owens after the 100m race and that he stormed out in frustration.
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Actually I don't see why Hitler would refuse to shake his hand. Hitler had nothing against blacks. (Just so long as they didn't breed with his "pure aryan" race.) His only racist sentiments were towards the jews, and the slavs to a lesser extent.
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Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 13:18 |
and gypsies
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TMPikachu
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 13:52 |
China was full of dippy-peasants who only used gunpowder for fireworks.
Mongols won through sheer numbers.
Atilla was driven out by defeat.
Washington had wooden teeth (they were hippopotamus ivory)
Jesus is white.
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Temujin
King
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:42 |
well, Jesus IS (or rather was) white - if he ever existed that is...Semites are still Caucasian
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Evildoer
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:57 |
Washington had Hipopotamus teeth...
White is usually a term only applied to European Caucasians, and even more specifically northern Europeans. Arabs are not called White although they are Semite and neither are Greeks.
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demon
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 16:47 |
[/quote]Washington had wooden teeth (they were hippopotamus ivory)[/quote]
-----
American soldiers during American Revolution had shiny blue clothes
George Washington was horseback with his good looking cloth during the entire revolution.
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Grrr..
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Tobodai
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Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 17:32 |
There are too many innacuracies to count....
Certainly Egyptian slave labor and Mongol numbers bother me the most but so does the presumption that anything south of the Sahara is incapable of making dynamic hitory or a civilization.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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