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Admiral YI Sun Shin

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Admiral YI Sun Shin
    Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 02:36

Warhead,

Originally posted by warhead

"The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War"

 

Actually, they didn't, Nurhaci did offer help, but Korea was afraid of the rising power of the Jurchen, so they pleaded to Ming not to, and this was rejected.

Well, I can only surmise that you are unaware of Kato Kiyomasa's campaign against the Jurchens (Orangai to the Japanese) in September of 1592.  Kato had 11,000 men, of which some 3,000 were allied Koreans, who disliked the Jurchens' raids.  A Jurchen fortress was taken, and a Jurchen Army was defeated in the field.  The fighting was fierce, but the Jurchens eventually withdrew.  Kato left Manchuria shortly afterwards, and though he planned to return, that was the only time the Japanese crossed into China, during the Imjin War. 

 

"However, one still has to wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had been able to secure Portuguese naval support for the Korean Invasion."

 

If Korea has Ming's support there is no way Japan could have won, the resource and manpower of Ming is inexhaustable and even if ming is toppled by internal rebellion the Manchus would then help Korea since Japan would have been a threat.

I agree about the Chinese manpower advantage, but the ability of a Portugeuse squadron to counter or negate the Korean naval threat would have freed up the Japanese on land, and even if they still ultimately had to pull out, it would likely have lengthened the war.

Peace,

David



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 02:53

Tobodai,

Originally posted by Tobodai

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by Evildoer

I believe they were also called Ywuejin people - in less than a century after the invasion, they would conquer China and construct the Qing dynasty.

The Jurchens--the Japanese fought against them too, during the Imjin War.

Francis Drake? Yi Sunshin was no pirate...

Pirate?  No, no, no---"El Draque" was a privateer!  

 

 

 

How is that carried away , no one I have seen, not Nelson, not Drake destroyed as many ships of the enemy.  WHy on earth could he not conceivably be the best admiral? Because hes not european?

OK calm down there, buddy.

No, I have no problem whatsoever with non-Europeans being considered for the title of "best admiral"--certainly, I'm a fan of Admiral Togo, and his performance during the Russo-Japanese War was a wakeup call for the West.

As for Admiral Yi Sun-sin, if the figures given by I/eye are correct, then he may indeed qualify, at least in terms of ships sunk and/or captured:

Originally posted by I/eye

Admiral Yi's record:

Ratio of ships used:
Korean 1 : 7 Japanese

Ships destroyed, damaged beyond repairable, or captured by enemy:
Korean 0 : 359 Japanese

Casualties suffered:
Korean 243 : 33,780 Japanese

However, I assume that the statistics above relate to Yi's performance during the entire Imjin War.  At Lepanto in 1571, the Holy League Fleet under Don Juan of Austria sank, burned, and captured some 200 Ottoman vessels.  30,000 Turks were killed.

And that was a single battle.

So, I still feel we should be careful on how we judge all of this.

Peace,

David



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 03:01

I/eye,

Originally posted by I/eye

However, one still has to wonder what would have happened if the Japanese had been able to secure Portuguese naval support for the Korean Invasion

Portuguese navy would have been defeated.. a little more work for Yi Sun Shin, but no real effect to the war

Would you care to back that claim up?

The Korean ships would not have been able to withstand the firepower of  Portuguese vessels.

Peace,

David

 

 

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 03:17

Evildoer,

Originally posted by Evildoer

Privateer or pirate... all the same thing. KGB thug or Mafia thug.

Relax.

I assumed you were at least semi-joking, as you used a  icon, so I returned the jest.

He was not just a talented fellow. He was a Poseidon. Even without Portugese help Japan might have conquered Korea without him. He defeated Japanese navy at enormous odds. If he just lost a single battle, whole of Korean navy would have been doomed. The ships under his command were the ONLY warships Korea had. (That was why he had only 12 ships after he returned from exile and while he was in exile a stupid commander lost all the others.)Note that Korea was a de-militarized nation at the time with only 3000 garrison at Seoul (!!!).

I did not mean to downplay Admiral Yi's accomplishments with my comment about him being a "talented fellow".  If I'm guilty of understatement, I apologize.

Francis Drake was not the naval commander in charge of defeating armada - he was under someone else's control. By the way Brits had advantage all along because they were fighting on their own seas -

So was Admiral Yi!

 

Spaniards could not navigte well in dark North oceans - plus their ships were designed to fire from distance whereas Spanish were more of transport-grapplers, and had to carry troops as well in place of sailors. Plus Brits had a better experience.

You summary of the Armada campaign oversimplfies things.

It's true that the English "race-built" galleons were optimized for long-range gunnery, and were faster and more nimble.

The Spanish and Portuguese "high-charged" galleons, on the other hand, were designed and predominantly armed for close-range gunnery and grappling & boarding, which was the Spanish naval specialty, which they used with great success both in Mediterranean galley warfare and Atlantic sailing vessel warfare.

Still, the English ended up doing the most damage with short-range gunnery, during the engagement at Gravelines.

And to say the English had "better experience" is misleading--there were plenty of experienced officers, sailors, & soldiers with the Armada too, as you acknowledge below.

Even at the on start of the invasion, almost all experienced Spanish admirals and seamen were opposed to it. It was a stupid blunder made by a Catholic-fanatic who knew nothing about navy (Philip II).

I agree it was a faulty plan on Philip's part--he never seemed able to grasp the realities that his men had to face. 

However, the fact that Hideyoshi decided to go on with the Korean Invasion without coming up with a suitable counter to the Korean Navy was likewise a major blunder.

Peace,

David

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 03:35

Evildoer,

Originally posted by Evildoer

Plus Drake and Nelson were from the greatest European sea-power with the world's best navy. They had advantage against the Armada, and at Trafalgar.

I mentioned only a comparison to Drake, so I'll stick with that part of the debate.

At the time of the Armada, there was actually much debate over who had "the world's best navy".  Drake's raid on Cadiz should have been a warning to the Spaniards that a comparatively new form of naval combat* was making serious headway, but that wasn't a completely clear thing at the time.

The only advantage that the tiny Korean navy had against the Japanese armada were turtle ships, which Yi Sunshin himself helped to build up. So he was indeed a genious and a political saviour in all sense of the world.

The Koreans had more than just the turtle ship (kobukson).  They also had the p'anokson ("board-roofed" ship).  The novel design of the turtle ship has always gained the most attention from historians, but the p'anokson was at least as important to the Korean Navy, if not more so.   Certainly, the Koreans had far more p'anoksons than turtle ships.  Another interesting point (brought up by author Stephen Turnbull in Fighting Ships of the Far East Vol 2--Japan and Korea AD 612-1639) is the fact that, while Admiral Yi is closely associated with the turtle ship, he never commanded one in battle himself--his flagship was in fact a p'anokson!

Both were very heavily-gunned by Asian standards, and were superior to Japanese warships.  Turnbull noted that the Koreans produced "the most advanced range of shipboard cannon in East Asia".  Author Jan Glete, in his book Warfare at Sea, 1500-1650, made the interesting comment that European observers probably would have described the turtle ship as a type of galleasse--ie., a vessel with mixed oar and sail power, with a heavy battery of cannon--and the p'anokson likewise would have qualified as such.

 

 

Peace,

David

* I say "comparatively new form of naval combat" because the Portuguese had actually pioneered the use of standoff gunnery against the Muslims, at the Battle of The Malabar Coast, in 1503.



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 04:09
wow... thanx u guys u guys have been great help
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 04:15

Originally posted by history_wiz

wow... thanx u guys u guys have been great help

 

Happy to toss in my 2 cents--good luck with your research.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 09:23
Well david, I bet that 12 european ships can never defeat 330 Turkic Ships the way Yi defeated 330 Japanese ships with only 12
Grrr..
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 17:25

Actually about the Sea thing it was not on Korean seas. Of course it was closer to Korea, but Japanese were already familiar with the seas of the areas in which the battles took place, since it is practically their own back yard. It is like Great Lakes being just as much of an American waterbody as Canadian. On the otherland, the seas in which Spaniards engaged the Brits were unfamiliar to them, and the climate was different as well - the dark cloudy weather of British isles were a definate stumbling block to the men who usually sailed sunnier seas. Plus on their way back a storm struck them, sinking more ships than British cannons.

The British had a navy that was comparably the same size as the Spanish, whereas Korean navy was a speck compared to the number of ships Japanese had.

One parellel between Hideyoshi invasion and Korean one was that the victors won because of the greater firepower.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2004 at 18:01
Actually, although large, the Japanese navy had a flaw compared to the Korean navy.  They didn't have any cannons...Japanese naval tactics were basically board with samurai and kill everyone...Koreans just stood as far away as possible and blasted away with cannons...

BTW I'm related to the guy who defeated Kato Kiyomasa General Jung Minboo
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 06:57

Originally posted by demon

Well david, I bet that 12 european ships can never defeat 330 Turkic Ships the way Yi defeated 330 Japanese ships with only 12

Demon,

Unlike Korean and Japanese vessels (where the former were much more advanced, as Gubukjanggoon correctly pointed out), European and Turkish ships were comparable technology-wise, so the comparison you offer isn't entirely fair.

However, for what it's worth, in 1416 the Venetian Capitano Generale da Mar, Pietro Loredan, defeated an Ottoman fleet of 112 ships, with only 15 of his own.

Peace,

David



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 14:22

One advantage the Italio-Spaniards had was that Ottoman ships were manned by slaves, whereas Europeans used normal citizens to man them. And the slaves were often Christian, so they would have turned upon their enslavers whenever the chance allowed them.



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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 20:29
From what I learned, the Spanish had canons, while the Ottomans still fought with arrows...
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 21:59

Evildoer,

Originally posted by Evildoer

One advantage the Italio-Spaniards had was that Ottoman ships were manned by slaves, whereas Europeans used normal citizens to man them. And the slaves were often Christian, so they would have turned upon their enslavers whenever the chance allowed them.

This is a totally inaccurate generalization.

First of all, the expression "Italo-Spaniards" is useless in this case, because it does not differentiate between the naval/military traditions of the various Italian city-states (eg., Venetian guns were amongst the very best in the world during the 16th century, whereas Genoese guns were not).

Secondly, we must examine in detail the two different rowing systems used on galleys.  The system employing "normal citizens" was the so-called alla sensile system, where free oarsmen were used.  Each man used his own oar, and the technique for rowing was a special skill.  These men were well-paid for the time.

However, as author John F. Guilmartin pointed out in his book Galleons and Galleys, by the mid-16th century "inflation had put oarsmen's salaries beyond the reach of Western Mediterranean powers and they instead turned to slaves and convicts, by definition less skilled and motivated."  The method of rowing used by these men was known as a scaloccio, and it used several men to a single oar. 

What this means is that by the time of Lepanto (1571), Spanish galleys were rowed by slaves.  So much for your "Europeans used normal citizens" theory.

However, the older system (alla sensile) persisted in the Eastern Mediterranean, amongst both the Venetians and the Ottoman Turks (some Turkish vessels had slaves, while many others were rowed by free men).  So much for your "Ottoman ships were manned by slaves" theory.

Peace,

David



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 22:06

Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

From what I learned, the Spanish had canons, while the Ottomans still fought with arrows...

The Ottomans had cannon too (good ones, btw), though the Spanish and Venetians generally placed more emphasis on artillery.

And the Turkish bow was probably responsible for more Christian casualties at Lepanto than any other single Ottoman weapon.  Among the victims was Agostino Barbarigo, the Venetian Second-In-Command, who was struck by an arrow when he raised his visor to shout orders to his men.

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 02:49

 Adm.Yi Sun-shin as good of a job he did, did not face a real navy and only fought hired transport.There was also a more than considerable advantage in knowledge of the area then said earlier, exploiting inlets and local depths.

Back to his impact, i believe it to be heavy. The face of the war might have been very different if the Japanese supply lines and reinforcements were kept intact.  Alone take Hideyoshi's tons of supplies,grain,coinage pay for the soldiers to buy it so they would not strip the countryside and its locals. The Admiral caused this to fail, the farmers and people arose leading them to be surrounded by enemies.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 06:11
about 2 weeks ago, a new tv series began in korea, its about yi sun shin and its called "immortal yi sun shin" and its pretty cool. I heard it was historically accurate and it shows all the people that served under Yi and his enemies and allies. The japansese general's and commander's names are all stated and the drama over all is great. if you guys can he get a hold of it somehow translated into english, i really recommend you watch it.
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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 06:41

Adm.Yi Sun-shin as good of a job he did, did not face a real navy and only fought hired transport.There was also a more than considerable advantage in knowledge of the area then said earlier, exploiting inlets and local depths.

he fought both the transports as well as the real navy

and he knew the area because he took the time to study it. the Japanese could have done that too if they wanted to, because they had taken over southern Korea

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 06:54

I/eye,

So give us the breakdown about how the Korean p'anokson and kobukson would have survived the broadsides of galleons and carracks...

Peace,

David

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  Quote I/eye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 07:07

do that in the imjin alternate scenario thread  in historical amusement forum.. it's the same discussion, and i already asked about the portuguese in there..

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