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Admiral YI Sun Shin
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Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Admiral YI Sun Shin
    Posted: 26-Aug-2010 at 12:01
Originally posted by lirelou


That is certainly true of my generation (60 plus). Korean education up until very recently still stressed learning a certain number of Hanju characters, and many businesses in Seoul still put up signs in both Han Gul and Hanju or classical Chinese. 
 
A re-emphasis on classical Chinese characters could return as China's economic and political strength grows.  
 
 One thing that I have noticed is that China does not promote Mandarin in the same way France does French.  For example, the French fund schools, trade organzations, educational programs and cultural exchanges in an effort to encourage use of French, even in countries where the language has declined.


Edited by Cryptic - 26-Aug-2010 at 12:07
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 12:16
SNK, in reference to: "I'll bet average Koreans knows more about Chinese characters than Vietnamese."

That is certainly true of my generation (60 plus). Korean education up until very recently still stressed learning a certain number of Hanju characters, and many businesses in Seoul still put up signs in both Han Gul and Hanju or classical Chinese.  But then, Korea's historical relationship with China differs fro that of Vietnam. The Chinese have never considered Korea as part of China, except to demand that Korea accept its roll as a vassal state (or more correctly, the Korean King acknowledge his position as a vassal of the Chinese Emperor), whereas the Chinese view Vietnam as a Chinese state (Nam Viet) that broke away from the Empire. You will find Chinese and Chinese-based (Chu Nom) characters in use among the Buddhist, Daoist, and Confucian clergy in Vietnam, but not among the general public, primarily due to Ho Chi Minh's decision to make the Quoc Ngu mandatory. As for the words themselves, the majority of words in both Korean and Vietnamese have Chinese roots, much as ost English words have Latin roots..

I am aware of the Goguryo issue, and my comment about China above refers to Shilla and Choseon periods. 
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Posts: 50 		  Quote SNK_1408 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 03:51
Originally posted by lirelou

.... Remember that the Choseon dynasty was so conservative in thought that even King Sajeong's Han Gul alphabet remained unused until the late 19th Century.
 
...


You sounded like you knows Korean language pretty well, tell me something that I don't know.
It was used but not extensively, commonly used by commoners and women up until late 19th century. Then after Korean Empire, republic government adopted usage of full Korean alphabet. Btw, Koreans still use Hanja in their written medias such as newspapers and books/government documents. I'll bet average Koreans knows more about Chinese characters than Vietnamese.

Hanja learning was compulsory up until early days of 1980s at elementary-high school, then as more younger generations went to overseas for education at aboard, usage of Hanja became pointless as they started using English and other foreign languages, also during Japanese occupation period 1910~1945, Korean were influenced by imported Japanese words. However usage of Japanese words have been discouraged by both North & South Korean education boards for "nationalism" purpose. From early 1990s, Korean government started ambitious plan for re-introducing native Korean words. There is even TV program that teaches how to use 'native words' over loan words.

Koreans today extensively uses three words: Hanja words, Korean words and English words. Either one of them would help to communicate with Koreans without much problem except for English words are not used extensively.
Many words like School, government, bank are mostly loan words from Hanja, where was newer words like computer, television, video, camcorder, camera, program etc.. are used as original sound just like English. Korean words are usually used at expressive words, color, sound, number, directions, commonly used daily words such as greetings, swearing words etc..


Edited by SNK_1408 - 25-Aug-2010 at 04:26
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 06:01
RollingWave, Reading coastal currents and sailing the high seas are two different skills, and as regards the former, I would suggest the Yi was intelligent enough to listen to the experienced coastal sailors in his crews. (Which I presume he did, and in itself is a mark of genius that was not common among Korean generals of the period.) Nelson was no fluke, and his navigational experience rested upon a long tradition of English high seas sailing. Korea had no such experience at the time, and indeed, their Navy was merely the coastal hugging version of the Army. Had Yi lived, and had Korea found a King interested in maritime trade overseas, that might have changed. Remember that the Choseon dynasty was so conservative in thought that even King Sajeong's Han Gul alphabet remained unused until the late 19th Century.
 
Koreans have since proven their genius in industry and boat-building. They don't need to puff up Admiral Yi's reputation with hyperbole. It suffices that at one of the darkest periods in Korean history, he was the light that rallied and inspired the Korean people.  
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Posts: 15 		  Quote RollingWave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 18:44
Originally posted by lirelou

As for Admiral Yi being greater than Nelson, understand that Nelson actually knew how to sail ships on distant seas, and was a master navigator. Yi was neither. Yet Yi was a model of ethical values and was totally committed to his country, something that many of his superiors lacked. Within the Korean military system of the 16th Century, Yi was both a model and a giant among his peers, something that excited great envy among his enemies. He would be better compared to Spain's 'Cid Campeador', Rodrigo de Bivar. The only real talent he had in common with Nelson was that of a naval tactical innovator. 
 
That is not technically true, Yi didn't sail to distant seas, but all signs point to him being a geniues navigator,  as he basically read the currents perfectly in every battle, causing the Japanese forces to be rowing against strong currents in their attempt to approach the Korean ships (his amazing victory at the Battle of Myeongnyang was probably the best example) , and even when the Japanese did have favorable currents  Yi played it against them (see battle of Hansando, where it appeared that the Japanese tried to use favaorable currents to rush into the Korean fleet, but the Korean fleet manuvered aside and fliped the table against them)
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Posts: 97 		  Quote Tiger of Kai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 14:06
Originally posted by lirelou

History_wiz, If you want a good study of the Imjin Wars, I would strongly recommend Stephen Turnbull's "Samurai Invasion", in which Admiral Yi figures prominently. His Turtle Ship was not an "Ironclad", and indeed, the spikes on the deck cover were meant to repell Samurai boarders, thereby forcing the Japanese to find another tactic other than their formidable boarding party. The matchlock rifles were know to the Koreans, but discounted by the first Korean general to take to the field as "Irrelevant, since they can't hit anything with them". (He was killed by one). The Korean ship mounted naval artillery out-ranged the Japanese ship-mounted guns, and Yi developed the tactic of standing out of range to destroy the Japanese ships by fire. Also, the Korean compound bow outranged the Samurai longbow. Still, Korea almost lost the war, thanks to an inept command system by which generals were kept in Seoul until they were finally given command, thereby forcing generals to go into battle with troops they had never commanded, and troops to serve under generals who were unknown to them.


Turnbull's work is decent, but it tends to focus on the Japanese side a bit. Much like Kenny Swope's work focuses on the Ming waaayyyy too much. For the discussion of the Imjin War I would highly recommend Samuel Hawley's work.

I like what you mentioned about the Korean command structure, however. To say they were inept is definitely putting it mildly.
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 11:25
As for Admiral Yi being greater than Nelson, understand that Nelson actually knew how to sail ships on distant seas, and was a master navigator. Yi was neither. Yet Yi was a model of ethical values and was totally committed to his country, something that many of his superiors lacked. Within the Korean military system of the 16th Century, Yi was both a model and a giant among his peers, something that excited great envy among his enemies. He would be better compared to Spain's 'Cid Campeador', Rodrigo de Bivar. The only real talent he had in common with Nelson was that of a naval tactical innovator. 
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Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 11:18
History_wiz, If you want a good study of the Imjin Wars, I would strongly recommend Stephen Turnbull's "Samurai Invasion", in which Admiral Yi figures prominently. His Turtle Ship was not an "Ironclad", and indeed, the spikes on the deck cover were meant to repell Samurai boarders, thereby forcing the Japanese to find another tactic other than their formidable boarding party. The matchlock rifles were know to the Koreans, but discounted by the first Korean general to take to the field as "Irrelevant, since they can't hit anything with them". (He was killed by one). The Korean ship mounted naval artillery out-ranged the Japanese ship-mounted guns, and Yi developed the tactic of standing out of range to destroy the Japanese ships by fire. Also, the Korean compound bow outranged the Samurai longbow. Still, Korea almost lost the war, thanks to an inept command system by which generals were kept in Seoul until they were finally given command, thereby forcing generals to go into battle with troops they had never commanded, and troops to serve under generals who were unknown to them.
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Originally posted by TranHungDao

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

If Korea has Ming's support there is no way Japan could have won, the resource and manpower of Ming is inexhaustable and even if ming is toppled by internal rebellion the Manchus would then help Korea since Japan would have been a threat.

I agree about the Chinese manpower advantage, but the ability of a Portugeuse squadron to counter or negate the Korean naval threat would have freed up the Japanese on land, and even if they still ultimately had to pull out, it would likely have lengthened the war.


Actually, the Ming were routed in Vietnam, just as the Qing were.   Both armies were about 200,000 vs Dai Viet's 100,000.  Western historians have observed from Chinese records that once China invaded Vietnam, sooner or later, they were vexed with the question of how to get out of Vietnam, because the war there was bankrupting the China.  (In both Japanese invasions of Korea, the Ming only sent about 100,000 to help the Koreans.  And they were effective!)

This is pretty faulty on several levels.
 
1. The total manpower send into korea in the first invasion by the Ming , if you count EVERYONE starting from the first small parties , was MAYBE close to 50,000 .
 
The Ming's local governor at Liao Dong authorized a small force of some 3,000 men under Zhu Chen Xun into Korea around July - August of 1592,  they were ill informed of the situation, and eventually was defeated badly at PyongYang in an attempt to retake the city and one of their generals Shi-Ru was killed in action. After this only a few hundred men was stationed with the Korean king at Uiji under Lo Shang Zhi, until the full expedition arrived, the administrator's letter suggest that he had around 36,000 men in Korea at that point, after this expedition under Li Ru Song and others retook PyongYang and Kaesong, they met stiff resistance at Seoul and entered into a stalemate mode, around this time 5,000 more men under Liu Ting arrived (they had traveled all the way from South Western China to get here) . inbetween this the Korean records noted a few other reinforcement of roughly 1000 men each, though the letters from the administrator Song Ying Chang does not seem to confirm this. adding this all up means that the total deployment was somehwere between 43,000 - 50,000 .
 
2. The second war saw a larger deployment, though it was reinforced in different stages. so due to obviously overlapping double counts it's hard to read into the total men power deployed, but at their height around September of 1598 they probably had some 75,000 - 80,000 men.  at the start of the war they had roughly 10,000 stationed in Korea, mostly at Namwon and Seoul ,  after that the Namwon garrison was largely lost, though the Ming forces was able to hold on to Seoul, by late 1597 they had reinforced back up to around the 40,000 range, and launched a counter offesnive on Ulsan, but that ended up badly. though how many Ming forces were actually killed remained murky. (probably 5k-8k) after this they made a large build up and launched a final large offensive starting from September of 98, at the point they probably had 75,000 + . so overall deployment might have been over 100k.
 
3. war is not just about manpower, it is also largely about logistics, and that was one of the primarly problems for both side in this conflict, the Japanese was getting cut off at sea thanks to Yi's effort and was badly harrased by insurgent koreans everywhere, so despite a large army they really couldn't go anywhere by the later months of 1592. on the other hand, th Ming also soon met with sever logistical problems after entering the war in earnest at 1593, as their letters noted how they couldn't even get salt, let alone rice and meat to their forces. they were citing terrible road conditions and an largely ineffective Korean government. (I can post out the original letter writings if you like) .  The Ming's manpower was also largely tied up against the Mongolian front,  and raising new armies is hardly something that can be done in a short span of time. (the two war both only lasted around 12 -18 months total. )
 
There was one additional potential source of army tha the Ming could have drawn from, but the Koreans were appalled by that proposition, which was to borrow forces from the Manchurian tribes , the Koreans have long suffered from raids from them however, and the prospect of them marching into Korea, even in times of desperation, is appalling.
 

 
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Perhaps you should read the arguments in this website, where I eventually gave up.
 
Earlier post:
 
 debated about this in http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=255.
It was a difficult debate this this website heavily favors Japan over Korea. I gave up in the end because people no longer bothers to respond.Pinch
 
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Eastern Knight I have deleted the table that was stuffing up the layout of the thread. In the future don't copy and paste that much.
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Originally posted by pekau

Originally posted by Hulegu Han

I saw Korean television series about Yi Sun Shin 2 years ago. It wasn't good enough in terms of drama but interesting in regard og history. But I'm not sure whether the scenes are true because I don't now much about Yi Sun Shin...
 
An important history lesson is that drama series in any nationality should not be taken seriously unless you are familiar with the facts.


I'm actually gonna have to say that Yi Sun Shin was historically good compared to other Korean dramas, which just.....


He's often considerd the "Francis Drake of Asia".


I always thought he was considered the "Horatio Nelson of Asia"...

Some quotes


It is always difficult for Englishmen to admit that Nelson ever had an equal in his profession, but if any man is entitled to be so regarded, it should be this great naval commander of Asiatic race who never knew defeat and died in the presence of the enemy; of whose movements a track-chart might be compiled from the wrecks of hundreds of Japanese ships lying with their valiant crews at the bottom of the sea, off the coasts of the Korean peninsula... and it seems, in truth, no exaggeration to assert that from first to last he never made a mistake, for his work was so complete under each variety of circumstances as to defy criticism... His whole career might be summarized by saying that, although he had no lessons from past history to serve as a guide, he waged war on the sea as it should be waged if it is to produce definite results, and ended by making the supreme sacrifice of a defender of his country. (The Influence of the Sea on The Political History of Japan, pp. 6667.)



And even surpassing Nelson



Throughout history there have been few generals accomplished at the tactics of frontal attack, sudden attack, concentration and dilation. Napoleon, who mastered the art of conquering the part with the whole, can be held to have been such a general, and among admirals, two further tactical geniuses may be named: in the East, Yi Sun-sin of Korea, and in the West, Horatio Nelson of England. Undoubtedly, Yi is a supreme naval commander even on the basis of the limited literature of the Seven-Year War, and despite the fact that his bravery and brilliance are not known to the West, since he had the misfortune to be born in Joseon Dynasty. Anyone who can be compared to Yi should be better than Michiel de Ruyter from Netherlands. Nelson is far behind Yi in terms of personal character and integrity. Yi was the inventor of the iron-clad warship known as the Turtle Ship (Geobukseon). He was a truly great commander and a master of the naval tactics of three hundred years ago. (A Military History of the Empire (Japanese: 帝國國防史論), p. 399)
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Admiral Yi is probably the greatest admiral in east asia and plz tell me if there are any better, cuz I doubt you ever will


He gained support of the ppl so badly that Seonjo had him imprisoned twice, tortured, sentenced to death, rank stripped etc. Yet he still fought for Korea, even by being a common soldier.
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Originally posted by Hulegu Han

I saw Korean television series about Yi Sun Shin 2 years ago. It wasn't good enough in terms of drama but interesting in regard og history. But I'm not sure whether the scenes are true because I don't now much about Yi Sun Shin...
 
An important history lesson is that drama series in any nationality should not be taken seriously unless you are familiar with the facts.
     
   
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I saw Korean television series about Yi Sun Shin 2 years ago. It wasn't good enough in terms of drama but interesting in regard og history. But I'm not sure whether the scenes are true because I don't now much about Yi Sun Shin...
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Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

If Korea has Ming's support there is no way Japan could have won, the resource and manpower of Ming is inexhaustable and even if ming is toppled by internal rebellion the Manchus would then help Korea since Japan would have been a threat.

I agree about the Chinese manpower advantage, but the ability of a Portugeuse squadron to counter or negate the Korean naval threat would have freed up the Japanese on land, and even if they still ultimately had to pull out, it would likely have lengthened the war.


Actually, the Ming were routed in Vietnam, just as the Qing were.   Both armies were about 200,000 vs Dai Viet's 100,000.  Western historians have observed from Chinese records that once China invaded Vietnam, sooner or later, they were vexed with the question of how to get out of Vietnam, because the war there was bankrupting the China.  (In both Japanese invasions of Korea, the Ming only sent about 100,000 to help the Koreans.  And they were effective!)

Both the Ming and Qing invasions were opportunistic ones in the sense that Dai Viet was internally divided and one side actually invited in the Ming to help them maintain power.  The Ming and Qing came to help--themselves!

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

He's often considerd the "Francis Drake of Asia".

Wasn't Sir Francis Drake a pirate?!? Shocked

Anyway, this Admiral Yi seems truly extraordinary.

Originally posted by demon


It all started after Japanese unification under Doyotomi Hideyoshi.  He was an ambitious men, he watned to conquer india.  He also needed to give land to his warriors who served under him.  So, he decided to invade Korea.

Wow, this Hideyoshi has some balls!  Shocked

I thought it was China that he really wanted to conquer?  After all it was the Yuan (Mongols) that twice invaded Japan.  When did India ever do such a thing to Japan?

Originally posted by demon


The first wave reached Busan.  The soldiers, never seen a musket in their life, thought that these Japanese were using spears and so brought longer spears to "deal" with them.  Of course, they failed miserably.

LOL

Did Ming soldiers have muskets?  They certainly had cannons.

Originally posted by demon


The T cross tactic was later used by a Japanese general who studied Yi to defeat the Russians in Japo-Russian war.

Admiral Togo?  Question

Originally posted by demon


By this time, Won Kiun(mentioned before Yi started) got jealous of Yi and decided to incriminate him for a crime ne never commited.  Yi was soon exiled to death, and on his way, it is said that his father died...and he could not visit the place because he was in exile (It was a bad thing due to the fact that Korea at that time was confusious).  Then, by persuation of another brilliant terrestrial general, Wol Kiun, Yi was back on duty, but under the title of ChoongMuGong, meaning "loyal but without honor".  During that time, the battle of Chil Chul Riang waged on, under leadership of Won Kiun.

No good deed goes unpunished!  Cry

Originally posted by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner

Originally posted by Tobodai

oh hes more than that, I think if you add all enemy ships sunk and battles would , statisitcally, be the best admiral in history.

OK let's not get carried away...


I dunno, but he's certainly a good candidate for it! Ermm

If demon's data is accurate, then I would say Yi is!  Clap

Think about it:

1.  Yi's undefeated.
2.  He's was often outnumbered.
3.  He was terribly innovative.
4.  His victories were so staggeringly lop-sided.
5.  He practically saved a country.  His navy was to Korea, what the RAF was to Britain in WWII.

Perhaps the only thing against him is the geographically narrow confines of the Imjin War:  He didn't romp all over the world like Alexander, Ghenghis or Napoleon.
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well, just keep on posting till we reach page 8.
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You know, Easterknight... you could have given us link. The tables you copied and pasted is messing up the thread...
     
   
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5. Even in the sphere of culture, Yi has emerged as an iconic figure of 21st century Korea. The television show The Immortal Yi Sun-sin had its debut on September 4, 2004, went on to receive the record ratings of almost 30%, and was voted as one of the most popular broadcasts of the year. Its success in the East generated considerable interest in the United States, and a subtitled version was soon released for American audiences.

 

6. Admiral Yi is before all else a symbol of pride and inspiration to the Korean Navy. To this day, much research takes place on his tactics and leadership methods at the Republic of Korea Naval Academy, Republic of Korea Navy, the Naval Education & Training Command and the Republic of Korea Marine Corps.


[1]According to Right Naval Station Warfare Formations with Illustrations published in 1780, over ten naval formations were used by the Korean Navy such as the Command, the Crane Wing, the Little Crane, the Straight, the Diamond, the Wedge, the Right Left Chal, the Circle, the Curvature and the Two Line.

[2] Korea employed multiple-masted ships from the Silla period (BC 57 AD 935). A Japanese record states that the ships used by Baekje and merchant ships of Chang Bo-Go of Silla had multiple masts. The superior performance of such ships came to be known to China also, and an ancient Chinese text Defending the Seas: A Discussion explains that The turtle-shaped ship of Korea can raise and lay down its sail at will, and it can travel with equal ease whether the wind is adverse or the tide low.

[3] The main type of timber traditionally used in Korea for shipbuilding is pine; to increase its strength oak, in particular the evergreen, was often used. Korean pine often has knots and bends, and because it was dangerous to process such a tree into thin timber, it was processed thickly to reinforce the strength. Traditional Japanese ships were commonly made out of the Japanese cedar or fir, which are lighter and easier to process than pine. Capitalizing on this, traditional Japanese ships have been built out of timber processed thinly and accurately. But strength-wise, cedars and firs suffer from the drawback of being weaker than pine. This in the end meant that Japanese ships were built out of weak material processed thinly, while Korean ships with strong material processed into thick timber
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Yi Sun-sin: His Memories and Influence on Korea Today

Even after 400 years, the noble spirit of Admiral Yi, which saved a country from the brink of collapse, remains as the object of veneration and admiration. The following are a selection of different ways in which the Admiral has been remembered by his countrymen since his valiant death at the Battle of Noryang.

1. King Son Jo, expressing his apologies and praying for the soul of Yi, gave the following funeral address.

      I abandoned you, and yet
      You did not once abandon me.
      The sufferings you underwent in this world,
      And those you take with you to the world after,
      How could one convey them in

Later, in 1604, the 37th year of Son Jos reign, Yi was honored posthumously as the Vice-Prime Minister. In 1643, the 27th year of King In Jos reign, he was awarded the posthumous title Chung Mu Gong (Master of Loyal Valor). In 1793, the 17th year of King Jung Jos reign, he was honored posthumously as the Prime Minister.

Under the Royal Ordinance of King Jung Jo, an exhaustive compilation of the deeds and achievements of Yis lifetime was undertaken in 1793. Entitled A Complete Collection on Chung Mu Gong Yi, it was published in 14 volumes after three years of research. Assigned and protected as the cultural heritage, the collection is an important historical source which illuminates all of Yis legacies to Korea.

2. Numerous shrines and monuments dedicated to the admirals memory have been built, including the Hyonchungsa Shrine at Asan. All over the southern part of Korea, where vestiges of his footmarks remain at the sites of his various battles, at Cholla Naval Station, at his training camps and so on the public continue to visit and pay their respects.

   The worlds first ironclad warship, the Kobukson, was restored and reconstructed by the Korean Navy in 1980, and placed on exhibit in the Republic of Korea Naval Academy, the Asan Hyeonchungsa Shrine, the War Memorial and the Jinju National Museum.

   The scientific innovation behind Yis Kobukson is the spiritual foundation and driving force behind the shipbuilding industry in Korea today. Over 30% of the worlds ships are built in Korean shipyards, and its marine technology is regarded as the most sophisticated in the world. In terms of order volume, it continues to stay ahead of its nearest competitor Japan as it has done for many years.

3. Admiral Yi is one of the most respected figures in Korean history and there are no fewer than 200 books written on him, with 74 published in 2004 and 2005 alone. The biographical novel Song of the Sword, based on the story of the admirals life, became a bestseller and was even singled out as recommended reading by Koreas President Roh Mu-hyun.

4. Since the beginning of the 21st century, many Koreans have become keen to learn the attitude and methods of Yi Sun-sin for their own development. His integrity, loyalty and devotion, his fine strategies, creative thinking, painstaking forward-planning and emphasis on the gathering of information through contacts all fulfill the criteria demanded of a leader in modern times. The field of economics and management is just one area in which the study and application of Yis strategies and leadership has taken root. Professor Ji Yong-hee, author of In Times of Economical Warfare: A Meeting with Yi Sun-sin, is currently giving lectures under the series title Yi Sun-sin on Business Management. Regarding Yi as a model for 21st century leadership, he argues there are many lessons we can learn from him, including being faithful to basics, establishing trust between individuals, striving for innovation, valuing information, and not falling victim to pride.

   Yi, above all, was strict with his own self, and he stood by his principles till the very end, thereby earning the trust of those around him. Today this might be called Transparent Management. Since he founded himself on morality, his subordinates believed and trusted him absolutely. He was moreover very modest. And since modest, he was always prepared. Prof. Ji Yong-hee
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