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Direct Link To This Post Topic: .:: Afghan Empires ::.
    Posted: 30-Oct-2005 at 20:18
I am Iranian and I have to agree with Bang on this, Pashtons are also claiming famous iranian poets, afghanistan is Iran, just they seperated and tried to desotroy all Iranian speakers and those not Pashtons this part he is true.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2005 at 00:29
The year is 2005. Afghanistan is not Iran. If the Pashtons are claiming that Iranian poets are theirs then how about writing us about it. Maybe we can believe as well. Let me help you get started. What poets? What are the Pashtons doing to Iranians? Is this all Pashton's or certain political factions?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 05:19
Rumi for one, and I do not need to write about it, Afghanistan is Iran, even if it is independent now, it still realies on Iran and now it refuses Iranian help because of US, I do not need to prove that they are claiming Iranian Poets it is a fact...... Pashtons themselves speak a langauge which is originally belonging to the Iranic family and closely retaled to Persian.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 11:35

So you don't feel that it's necessary for you to try and prove your point on this subject? Come on, you can at least try. Lets see them facts.

You seem to have mixed politics with your history. What part of Pashton society still relies on Iran? I really am not informed about this stuff as you may be. So a little info would help.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 16:26

The only parties that are relied to Iran are the Hazaras of Bamian.  The Tajiks were sidelined by the Iranians for a very long time because they were Sunnis, up until a few years before 9/11 when they finally started giving arms to fellow Tajik Persian speakers in Panjsher who would also receive aid from Russia and India.  The Uzbeks never received arms from Iran, they received theirs from Russia via Uzbekistan and possibly Turkmenistan.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2005 at 16:28

Originally posted by Rakhsh

Rumi for one, and I do not need to write about it, .

You are correct, Afghanistan does claim Rumi as being one of their own, but I think only in terms of historically, not ethnically because today Balkh is inhabited by mostly Uzbeks and Hazaras. 

Historical scholars confirm he was from Balkh, but not necessarily Afghanistan, but possibly in Tajikistan that at the time was part of the dominion of Balkh (ancient Bactria).  Though I doubt even he would even consider him Tajik, but a Balkhi.  Read the following quote: 

According to Professor Franklin Lewis, "Bah al-Din may have
been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210
(Shavvl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bah
al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Tajikistan).

Counterclaim by other Scholars:

According to several other scholars, Mawln was probably not born in Balkh (a metropolis prior to the Mongol invasion), but in a small
town about 155 miles north in the valley of Wakhsh River, which
flows into the Amu Darya (Oxus) River.
2
Since this region is north
of the Amu Darya, it is in present-day Tajikistan. This area,
culturally a part of Balkh, is where Mawln's father, Baha'uddin
Walad, was a preacher and jurist.
3
He lived and worked there
between 1203 and 1211 and then in Samarqand in the year 1212.
4

He presumably returned to Balkh, since he and his family
emigrated from there to Anatolia about 1216 or 1217.
5
It must also
be kept in mind that Bahau'uddin was called the "Great Master of
Balkh," (Khodwandgr- Balkh) and that Mawln's earliest
biographers mentioned only Balkh as the family's origin.
Therefore, Mawln's father must also have been very active in
Balkh as a preacher, scholar, and spiritual leader with numerous
disciples-- and not merely a rural preacher. He was a "Balkh," a
man of Balkh
. - Ibrahim Gamard

Rumi was never obsessed with his ethnicity, or race,  as Turkish, Afghan, Iranian nationalists were (maybe still are) today.  

He was in love with his religion and the last thing anybody should do is claim that he was their nations only, which would be like spitting on his grave.   All he asked was for unity and peace, and unfortunately all we can offer him today is ethnocentrism and racism.  This must change.



Edited by Afghanan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 10:35

Originally posted by Afghanan

 The Uzbeks never received arms from Iran, they received theirs from Russia via Uzbekistan and possibly Turkmenistan.

BULLOCKS! stop talkin from ur rear end!....uzbekistan & turkmenistsan never ever helped us.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2005 at 17:49

Bang, wake up and smell the Chai.  Previously you quoted RAWA.org for human rights abuses, have you even read what RAWA has said about Dostum?

This one speaks worlds about him:

Criminal Gen. Dostum seeks
 
Russia's help against Taliban

NNI, Wednesday 3rd November, 1999

Link to Article:  http://www.rawa.org/dostum2.htm

There were no innocent parties in the Civil War, one day you will come to realization about that.  And dont play this game that 'you can't say anything because I lost family.'  I too, have lost family, every Afghan on this planet has lost family because of the war.  Hafizullah Amin ordered the death of 1/3 of my mothers family.  That still does not give you any excuse to speak rude to other members, let alone push racism against Pashtuns because Pashtuns are human beings too.



Edited by Afghanan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 08:55
Originally posted by Afghanan

Bang, wake up and smell the Chai.  Previously you quoted RAWA.org for human rights abuses, have you even read what RAWA has said about Dostum?

This one speaks worlds about him:

Criminal Gen. Dostum seeks
 
Russia's help against Taliban

NNI, Wednesday 3rd November, 1999

Link to Article:  http://www.rawa.org/dostum2.htm

There were no innocent parties in the Civil War, one day you will come to realization about that.  And dont play this game that 'you can't say anything because I lost family.'  I too, have lost family, every Afghan on this planet has lost family because of the war.  Hafizullah Amin ordered the death of 1/3 of my mothers family.  That still does not give you any excuse to speak rude to other members, let alone push racism against Pashtuns because Pashtuns are human beings too.

What i was saying is that not a single weapon came thru uzbekistan or turkmenistan.

Forget about providing weapons to Dostum...they didn even allow his plane to land when he Gen. Malik switched sides. Again it was Turkey who provided refuge for him.

C'mon man...Its the negative press about Dostum. the foreign journalists were always in kabul and they got their news those who were in kabul...and as u know it very well that they are all anti-dostum.

Pashtons humanbeings?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 11:03

Turkey provided Refuge, but he escaped to UZBEKISTAN first.  Afterwards, he fled to Iran, and FINALLY, Turkey.

Refer to this article written by Radio Free Europe about Dostum:

"The Taliban's ascension proved too powerful for Dostum, however, thanks in part to his onetime "foreign minister" and later rival, Abdul Malik. Dostum was ousted from his Mazar-e Sharif stronghold and his surrounding mini-state in 1997, and eventually forced to flee to Uzbekistan, Iran, then Turkey."

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/03/4cf98ae3-c998-4 245-ba20-f820362a15f0.html

As for Uzbekistan, Russia, and others giving support to his party, it is common knowledge.  Refer to this article written by the University of Maryland in regards to Risk Assessment for Afghanistan's Minorities. 

" Furthermore, material and diplomatic support from Iran, Russia, and Central Asian republics (including Uzbekistan) provide the Uzbeks with the means to continue rebellion."

Source: http://www.ecoi.net/doc/en/AF/content/5/761-778#s1390

NO political-ethnic armed faction is innocent of crimes

against the Afghan people.

 

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2005 at 12:17
Originally posted by bang

Pashtons humanbeings?

Bang, we do not tolerate such bigotry here, please restrain yourself and your language. please look at the wider picture, I know your feelings on this issue are strong.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 17:58
Originally posted by Afghanan

Turkey provided Refuge, but he escaped to UZBEKISTAN first.  Afterwards, he fled to Iran, and FINALLY, Turkey.

Refer to this article written by Radio Free Europe about Dostum:

"The Taliban's ascension proved too powerful for Dostum, however, thanks in part to his onetime "foreign minister" and later rival, Abdul Malik. Dostum was ousted from his Mazar-e Sharif stronghold and his surrounding mini-state in 1997, and eventually forced to flee to Uzbekistan, Iran, then Turkey."

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2005/03/4cf98ae3-c998-4 245-ba20-f820362a15f0.html

Thats NOT true!...His plane entered uzbek airspace WITHOUT any permission and uzbek authorities made it clear to him that he cannot stay there and thats when Turks said He can come to turkey. After refueling at termiz airport... he flew directly to Turkey.... he never ever stepped into Iran!

Originally posted by Afghanan

As for Uzbekistan, Russia, and others giving support to his party, it is common knowledge.  Refer to this article written by the University of Maryland in regards to Risk Assessment for Afghanistan's Minorities. 

" Furthermore, material and diplomatic support from Iran, Russia, and Central Asian republics (including Uzbekistan) provide the Uzbeks with the means to continue rebellion."

Source: http://www.ecoi.net/doc/en/AF/content/5/761-778#s1390

NO political-ethnic armed faction is innocent of crimes

against the Afghan people.

ill informed sources!...If Turkmenistan & Uzbekistan supported junbesh (dostum's faction) they wud have given him refuge when he needed the most...but he was turned away instead.

And again since you can't defend your pashton taliban....you blame all the factions!

 

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2005 at 21:13

Bang,

Just to say "Its not true" doesn't hold any water.  Since when has the  Uzbekistan government been honest?  Since when did Uzbek government become a 'trusted' source of information and independent Western news and research centers become 'ill informed' ?

Wake up Bang, your real motivation is not about revealing 'human right atrocities' otherwise you would be rather vocal about a number of different atrocities that have been discussed.  The only topic you've ever been vocal about is this one about Pashtuns.

For some reason, Uzbekistans atrocities against Tajiks and their own fellow countrymen fall on your deaf ears!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:12

Bang you asked for info on the Uzbek empire well here you are...

Your ancesters would have looked something like the image below:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 20:28

I have to agree with bang on this one, though I hate to admit. He is a little extreme. I mean obviously not all of them are bad people, not even a majority. But there is a large portion of the population that did support the Taliban and radical elements in the government. So I must say that they did a lot of damage and murdering.

But I think the really evil behind all of this is radical Islam. I mean I have no problem with the religion itself, but it tends to be more extremist than other religions and has killed many peoples under its banner and destroyed many cultures. If the Pashtos, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras were not muslims, then maybe they could come together under the banner of being Afghani. And maybe Iran and Afghanistan wouldn't be stuck over this Shia/Sunni BS and they would unite to form a more efficient and stronger nation.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 04:04

What!!! i believe that more people have died under the name of Christianity then under the name of Islam. How do you think Christianity spread so fast, by peace?

Ever heard of the Christion fundementalist group known as the IRA???

Their aim is for a united Ireland just as the PLO wants a united Palestine, however one is labelled as an Islamic extremist

The media has done well in brain washing i see

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 11:55
Originally posted by Afghanan

Bang,

Just to say "Its not true" doesn't hold any water.  Since when has the  Uzbekistan government been honest?  Since when did Uzbek government become a 'trusted' source of information and independent Western news and research centers become 'ill informed' ? 

man you are soo thick...where did I qoute uzbek sources? I was tellin you about what really happened and its the fact....you are obviously a pathan and never been to northern afghanistan...

Originally posted by Afghanan

Wake up Bang, your real motivation is not about revealing 'human right atrocities' otherwise you would be rather vocal about a number of different atrocities that have been discussed.  The only topic you've ever been vocal about is this one about Pashtuns.

For some reason, Uzbekistans atrocities against Tajiks and their own fellow countrymen fall on your deaf ears!

If you are refering to mistreatment of taliban prisoners...then let me tell u...they deserved every bit of torture!...the difference between us and you pathans is that....we dont mistreat or torture UNARMED CIVILIANS while thats the only thing u pathans did when u came to norhtern afghanistan.

Mr. pathan...im not from uzbekistan and I dont know what goes on inside that country...and frankly speakin its none of my business...

Im here to reveal how corrupt and thick you pathans are! now deal with it!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 12:09
Originally posted by PrznKonectoid

I have to agree with bang on this one, though I hate to admit. He is a little extreme. I mean obviously not all of them are bad people, not even a majority. But there is a large portion of the population that did support the Taliban and radical elements in the government. So I must say that they did a lot of damage and murdering.

But I think the really evil behind all of this is radical Islam. I mean I have no problem with the religion itself, but it tends to be more extremist than other religions and has killed many peoples under its banner and destroyed many cultures. If the Pashtos, Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Hazaras were not muslims, then maybe they could come together under the banner of being Afghani. And maybe Iran and Afghanistan wouldn't be stuck over this Shia/Sunni BS and they would unite to form a more efficient and stronger nation.

Talibans = pashtons...end of discussion...

They never fought in highly pashton populated areas such as southern & eastern Afghanistan.

even in northern afghanistsan....the local pashtons helped taliban consolidate their power by guidin them to peoples houses ...looting and etc.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 21:22
Originally posted by OSMANLI

What!!! i believe that more people have died under the name of Christianity then under the name of Islam. How do you think Christianity spread so fast, by peace?

Ever heard of the Christion fundementalist group known as the IRA???

Their aim is for a united Ireland just as the PLO wants a united Palestine, however one is labelled as an Islamic extremist

The media has done well in brain washing i see

 

I wasn't talking about Christians. Otherwise I would have said yes, fundamental Christians killed many pagans in Europe, in the middle east with their stupid crusades (everybody thinks the crusaders were heros, I think they were killers). And yes they still kill today.

But I will leave Europe to deal with that menace, it is their issue. By gripe with Islam is the number of my brothers and sisters it has killed.

Actually I shouldn't say Islam, but u know I mean the fundamentalists not the religion.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 21:27

Bang,

You have YET to show me any PROOF that Dostum only landed in Turkey or whatever.  You claimed it, now PROVE it.  Your anger clouds every judgement you have ever made.  Ofcourse when I post something about Dostum in the SAME website you quoted your own atrocities, you dont believe it!  Soon you will say RAWA is "Pashtun."

We ALL know that the Taliban committed many atrocites across Afghanistan and even Pakistan, from Herat to Islamabad.  They massacred mostly Hazaras in Yakaolang, and even had a 'scorched-earth' policy among Tajiks.  We all know that they wanted to destroy ethnic minorities who disagreed with their Wahabi/Deobandi beliefs.

We all know that even Ahmad Shah Massoud, the Lion of Panjsher was accused of committing atrocites in Kabul under his command.  We all know the Pashtun guerilla leader Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, is nick named the "Butcher of Kabul" for his incessant bombings of Kabul after he was sidelined from power.  And as for the Uzbeks who took control of Kabul under Dostum?  C'mon Bang, do I have to FIND everything for you?

A young woman who left her home in Mycrorayan 3 in Kabul for Peshawar after the January 1994 fighting told Amnesty International of a rape which her father had described to her.

"One day when my father was walking past a building complex, he heard screams of women coming from an apartment block which had just been captured by forces of General Dostum. He was told by the people that Dostum's guards had entered the block and were looting the property and raping the women."

A teacher who left Kabul for Pakistan in mid-1994 told Amnesty International that her parents were frightened that she and other women in the family might be raped by members of the warring factions.

"I was frightened of becoming dishonoured by the armed guards, so we left Kabul. My neighbour was a middle-aged lady and had young sons. This woman was in the nearby shop when Dostum guards raided the shop. They got hold of the shop-keeper and took him away. They locked this woman in the shop for about one and a half hours. They then let her go. She came to us and told us to leave as soon as we could. She said she had been dishonoured by the guards. We knew we had to leave."

Some armed guards target women from ethnic minorities they regard as enemies. The following testimony was given by a 40-year-old woman who came to Peshawar in late 1993. In Kabul, she lived in Deh Dana area.

"First, the forces of Hezb-e Islami began to fire rockets on our residential area from the Chel Sotoon mountains. After that, the forces of General Dostum came to the city. They are known as Gelim Jam (carpet-takers). These guards were only looking for Pashtun people, and would not actually kill non-Pashtuns. We were not Pashtun, so at least our lives were spared... The next day armed guards of Hezb-e Islami came to us. They carried out a lot of atrocities. For example, a number of young women in our street were raped by them. One young woman was taken away by them and a few days later her body was found somewhere in the city."

Oh and as for Northern Afghanistan and Pashtuns 'leading' Taliban to Mazar.  Was it not the Uzbeks and Hazaras who rampage and pillaged Pashtun homes in Balkh BEFORE the Taliban advanced to retake Mazar?

Furthermore, is it not the Uzbeks of Mazar are still FIGHTING with Atta's ethnic Tajik people for control of Samangan, and other provinces in the north?  

Not only is Dostum NOT innocent, he is a war criminal in the same line as Mulah Omar, Massoud, Marshall Fahim, Gulbuddin, Palwan, etc, and they should be tried for all their crimes against the Afghan people and for perverting Islam for political gain.

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