Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Southern Mongolians and Manchurians
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 29-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Southern Mongolians and Manchurians
    Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 11:31

1, It's not completely corret to say Manchus "conquered" Inner(Southern) Mongolians. It's that Manchus help some Mongol tribes defeated a stronger tribe named Chahar that was directly ruled by Mongol great Khan, then, Manchus allied with Southern Mongolians to form a powerful steppe empire, which conquered China later. You can say Manchus conquered western Mongolians(Oirad Mongols), even included Northern Mongolians(Halha Mongols), but it's actually an alliance between the Manchus and Southern Mongolians. 

2, Southern Mongolians never thought they allied with(or submitted to) a Chinese empire, and Manchu empire was actually a non-Chinese empire before it conquered China. And, Southern Mongolian nobles even thought they were conquerers like the Manchus when their political and malitary alliance successed to defeat and conquer Chinese Ming empire later. However, the Mongols didn't rebel because of that the Manchu emperors had become Chinese emperors, just like that Mongol tribes in their native homeland didn't rebel for that Kubilai Khan established Yuan empire in China. But when those conquered empires in China was collasped in the end, things would turn to be very different for those people in their native land.

3, When Halha Mongols(Northern Mongolians) joined the alliance of Manchus and Southern Mongolians to avoid the thread from Oirad Mongols(Western Mongolians), and when they evetually defeated Oirad Mongols later, Manchu empire actually had already become a Chinese empire in this time.  

4, When Manchu empire was overthrow by Chinese, both Southern Mongolians and Northern Mongolians have realized their alliance with the Manchus didn't exited again, and they both began to struggle for their national independence and defended their country from the invasion of Chinese warlords, the difference between them was that Northern Mongolians got the help from Russians but Southern Mongolians got nothing, although they also tried to get it from Japan or USSR. BTW, Western Mongolians(Oirad Mongols) were destroyed so much by the Manchus that they were too week to do anything at that time.

 
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2005 at 11:40

Looks interesting. I agree with most of your write up except for the part where the steppe mongols didn't rebel against Kublai. They actually did rebel which led to immense civil wars.

And by the way, I noticed that you presented your exact post on two different forums: Steppes and Asian History. All we need is one. Thanks, and keep this in mind for future reference.



Edited by Seko
Back to Top
Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 29-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 10:54

Some statements are related to China(east asia), but historically, the history of Southern Mongolians belongs to steppes and central asia history.  

 
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 11:06

Ofcourse!

I wanna ask those people who makes such statements where they gonna set Ottoman empire? They've ruled in 3 continents...
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg">
Back to Top
tadamson View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 25-Jul-2005
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 451 		  Quote tadamson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2005 at 11:16
DayI,

I'm curious, why post under different names ?
rgds.

      Tom..
Back to Top
blitz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 02-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 04:50

Hi Yungsiyebu Uriankhai,

is it true that the founder of Qing dynasty, Nurkhachi, was a descendant of Munkhe Khan, the 4th great khan of Mongols and grandson of Ghengis Khan?   

 



Edited by blitz
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
Back to Top
Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 29-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 10:34

Nurhaci was the founder of Aisin Gurun(Manchu empire in Manchurian), his son Hong Taiji begun to conquer China and named his empire Amba Daicing Gurun(Great Qing empire in Manchurian), but he didn't achieve it. Nurhaci's grandson Shunzhi, who completed to conquer China, was the first Manchu emperor who begun to rule China and Chinese people, and the real founder of Qing dynasty.

The 6th ancestor of Nurhaci Khan, with a Mongol name "Munkh Timur", was ever a leader of Jurchen(Manchu) Tumen(10,000 families) of Mongol's Yuan empire. It's possible that Chinggis Khaan's descendants ever ruled Jurchen tribes in today's Manchuria, just Like they ever ruled Turkistan and were Turkified in the end, but we lack the direct evidence to prove it yet. of course, It's also possible that he was the former Jurchen noble who adopted a Mongol name for improving his status.

 
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 12:29

Originally posted by tadamson

DayI,

I'm curious, why post under different names ?

Huh??
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg">
Back to Top
Your_Overlord View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Your_Overlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2005 at 22:12
Originally posted by blitz

Hi Yungsiyebu Uriankhai,

is it true that the founder of Qing dynasty, Nurkhachi, was a descendant of Munkhe Khan, the 4th great khan of Mongols and grandson of Ghengis Khan?   

 



most likely not
Back to Top
blitz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 02-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2005 at 05:05
Originally posted by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai

4. When Manchu empire was overthrow by Chinese, both Southern Mongolians and Northern Mongolians have realized their alliance with the Manchus didn't exited again, and they both began to struggle for their national independence and defended their country from the invasion of Chinese warlords, the difference between them was that Northern Mongolians got the help from Russians but Southern Mongolians got nothing, although they also tried to get it from Japan or USSR. BTW, Western Mongolians(Oirad Mongols) were destroyed so much by the Manchus that they were too week to do anything at that time.

 


It is true.  Very sad for inner mongolians. I read  following story:

In 1911  the 4 khans of Khalkha Mongolia proclaimed their independence . And 35 of 49 inner mongolian qoshuns and the western mongols followed them and agreed upon a single mongolian state.  The prime minister of Mongolia became one of the 4 khans. But chinese warlords didn't accept this mongolian state and invaded inner mongolia.  But the chinese were defeated several times.  Soon the prime minister of Mongolia  visited russian tsar in St.Petersburg and  prayed for weapons.  But russia and china made a treaty before this visit  and according to this treaty  inner mongolia and buriat mongolia must remain in China and Russia respectively. So mongolia didn't get any weapon from russia and inner mongolia was taken by chinese.  

After the October revolution Khalkha Mongolia got weapons and another helps from Russia  and proclaimed again their independence.   

When in 1945 soviet troops liberated China from Japan khalkha Mongolia tried to unify inner Mongolia to Mongolia. But again Stalin made treaty with China and Inner Mongolia remained in China.



Edited by blitz
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
Back to Top
poirot View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 21-May-2005
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2005 at 07:06

The pulling of Inner Mongolia to China after the overthrow of the Qing Empire had to deal more with the presence of Chinese merchants, mostly from the province of Shanxi.   Economically, Inner Mongolia had deep ties with Northern China.

After World War II, Inner Mongolia was a haven for the Communist Party,   During the Chinese Civil War, the Communist People's Liberation Army had divisions of Mongolian cavalry (yes, real horses).
AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           
Back to Top
blitz View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 02-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103 		  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2005 at 10:05
Originally posted by poirot

The pulling of Inner Mongolia to China after the overthrow of the Qing Empire had to deal more with the presence of Chinese merchants, mostly from the province of Shanxi.   Economically, Inner Mongolia had deep ties with Northern China.

I don't think so.  In the year of 1911-1913 for example southern(inner) Mongolia was almost unified with northern Mongolia.  In 1913 this two defeated chinese forses twice in Inner Mongolia.

In 1945 the the right wing of Soviet-Mongol forse was northern mongols(khalkha) and together they liberated inner Mongolia. Inner Mongolia was ready to join Khalkha. But Stalin didn't allow it because of the relationship with China and because one part of mongols(buriads) was in Soviet Union. So IM remained in China.  

  



Edited by blitz
Road to wisdom: err, err and err. But less, less and less!
Back to Top
Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 29-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:05

***

sorry, to avoid any unexpected trouble, I delete some of my statements, I hope my discussion could be limited in the ancient history of Inner Mongolia.

 

 



Edited by Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 12:24
No problem. If you will, continue with your work on inner Mongolia. Seems interesting too.
Back to Top
poirot View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 21-May-2005
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:08
Originally posted by blitz

Originally posted by poirot

The pulling of Inner Mongolia to China after the overthrow of the Qing Empire had to deal more with the presence of Chinese merchants, mostly from the province of Shanxi.   Economically, Inner Mongolia had deep ties with Northern China.

I don't think so.  In the year of 1911-1913 for example southern(inner) Mongolia was almost unified with northern Mongolia.  In 1913 this two defeated chinese forses twice in Inner Mongolia.

In 1945 the the right wing of Soviet-Mongol forse was northern mongols(khalkha) and together they liberated inner Mongolia. Inner Mongolia was ready to join Khalkha. But Stalin didn't allow it because of the relationship with China and because one part of mongols(buriads) was in Soviet Union. So IM remained in China.  

  

I do not deny the Mongol quest for independence, I am just stating that without Chinese merchants from Shanxi, Inner Mongolia would have pulled away from China, regardless of warlord intervention.
AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           
Back to Top
poirot View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Editorial Staff

Joined: 21-May-2005
Location: Belgium
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1838 		  Quote poirot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 15:11
Originally posted by blitz

Originally posted by poirot

The pulling of Inner Mongolia to China after the overthrow of the Qing Empire had to deal more with the presence of Chinese merchants, mostly from the province of Shanxi.   Economically, Inner Mongolia had deep ties with Northern China.

I don't think so.  In the year of 1911-1913 for example southern(inner) Mongolia was almost unified with northern Mongolia.  In 1913 this two defeated chinese forses twice in Inner Mongolia.

In 1945 the the right wing of Soviet-Mongol forse was northern mongols(khalkha) and together they liberated inner Mongolia. Inner Mongolia was ready to join Khalkha. But Stalin didn't allow it because of the relationship with China and because one part of mongols(buriads) was in Soviet Union. So IM remained in China.  

  
AAAAAAAAAA
"The crisis of yesterday is the joke of tomorrow.�   ~ HG Wells
           
Back to Top
Your_Overlord View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote Your_Overlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2005 at 20:52
in my class at UCLA, they said that PRC traded Mongolian Independence for manchuria with the Soviets. 

and Russians liberated Manchuria not China as you guys are defining it (which excludes Manchuria), so by the way you mongols see things, the Russians didn't liberate China, no?  please show a little more consistency when you guys talk about what is chinese or what not, instead of just picking spots to condescend an entire group of people.

also, the topic is this thread is a little...uh...how the hell can inner mongolians see themselves as conquerors? by the same logic, can't han chinese see themselves as conquerors as well b/c the manchus had two divisions of Han Chinese Banners b4 their conquest of reminenscents of the Ming?  but thats stupid as well.  Bottom line, Manchus conquested both Han Chinese and Mongols during the 17th century(Even if they used a lot of Han and Mongol troops, the expeditions were still Manchu led). and the Manchu's  rocked the  mongols,  just live with it.

and this Inner Mongolian independence thing needs a better argument, cus historically Mongolians did even hold it for that long.  Most of Inner Mongolia was part of Xi Xia and Jin during the 5 Kingdoms era. only after Mongol conquests did it b/c Mongolia.  Manchu conquered it later, so isn't it a mere 3 centuries that "Inner Mongolia" was actually occupied by a mongol state?


Edited by Your_Overlord
"All under heaven is one family"
Back to Top
Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai


Joined: 29-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 108 		  Quote Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 10:26

Those nomadic Tangud, Khitan, Ongud, Jurchen in today's Inner Mongolia, are the ancestors of today's Southern Mongolians like Naiman, Kereit, Merkit and others are. Chinggis Khaan didn't replace other nomadic tribes with his original Mongols, but unitified all nomads of Mongolian steppes to be a nation with the common name of Mongolia. Inner Mongolia belonged to Tangud, Khitan, Ongud and others many hundred years ago, today, it belongs to their descendents who are Southern Mongolian.

 
Back to Top
yan. View Drop Down
Consul
Consul


Joined: 15-Apr-2005
Location: Germany
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 352 		  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2005 at 13:10

Originally posted by blitz


It is true.  Very sad for inner mongolians. I read  following story:

In 1911  the 4 khans of Khalkha Mongolia proclaimed their independence . And 35 of 49 inner mongolian qoshuns and the western mongols followed them and agreed upon a single mongolian state.  The prime minister of Mongolia became one of the 4 khans. But chinese warlords didn't accept this mongolian state and invaded inner mongolia.  But the chinese were defeated several times.  Soon the prime minister of Mongolia  visited russian tsar in St.Petersburg and  prayed for weapons.  But russia and china made a treaty before this visit  and according to this treaty  inner mongolia and buriat mongolia must remain in China and Russia respectively. So mongolia didn't get any weapon from russia and inner mongolia was taken by chinese.  

After the October revolution Khalkha Mongolia got weapons and another helps from Russia  and proclaimed again their independence.   

When in 1945 soviet troops liberated China from Japan khalkha Mongolia tried to unify inner Mongolia to Mongolia. But again Stalin made treaty with China and Inner Mongolia remained in China.

It's slightly more complicated. After 1911, the role of Japan shouldn't be forgotten. In fact, it was the fear for their relations with Japan (right after the 1905 disaster) that kept Russia from providing arms to Inner Mongolians and made them intervene against Halha interference in Inner Mongolia. Besides, I'm somewhat sceptical about Mongol victories at that time. If you look at the events of 1919, the Bogd Gegeen government was very weak. I could imagine there were problems between the different mongol tribes (why would Inner Mongolian tribes accept Halha nobles as leaders?), I don't have any proof so far, though. Then there was the problem of a corruptible nobility that would prefer getting annuities from Beijing to being independent (another important point in the chinese  Re-occupation of Outer Mongolia in 1919 as well). And of course there were large Han-Chinese settlements in Inner Mongolia even back then.

IIRC, 1921 would actually see two declarations of independence in Outer Mongolia: one after Ungern-Sternberg had driven Chinese troops out, and the other (canonic) one after the Red Army had captured Ungern-Sternberg (Both Reds and Whites coudl apparently rely on local support, while the Chinese couldn't).

The Mongolian participation in the Soviet Manchurian Offensive of 1945 was IMO rather a political act than a military endevaour. The main point was probably to neutralize the De Wang government and have a stronger position in future negotiations with China re. the acceptance of Outer Mongolia's independence (the ROC was still claiming it as part of China until Dec. 1945 or so). Having locals as guides and interpreters may have played a role as well, but the Mongolian forces' manpower certainly wasn't sufficient to put up an independence war for Inner Mongolia, besides the fact that Stalin, and therefore Choibalsan, wasn't interested. AFAIK Stalin only raised the question of Inner Mongolia's independence when Mao tried to raise the question of Outer Mongolia's re-annexation to China.

OTOH, I'm quite sure Stalin didn't view Mongolia's independence as somewhat that could be traded. At least that was my impression when I read an account of the negotiations for the Sino-Soviet treaty of August 14(?)th, 1945.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 16:03

Since 1911 Mongolia was de facto independant, but not recognised by anyone except Tibet. Although Soviets support Mongolia, but Soviet was hesitating to recognise Mongolia as independant State due to China's claim.  Mongolia was still de jure  part of China which was talking for Mongolia in world affair.
Mongolia leaders doing the best for State of Mongolia,  in lobbying Stalin to talk for Mongolia, declare themselves 2nd Communist State, , joining Soviet war, supporting all Soviet decisions.
This realism reached its apogee at Yalta, a small town in Crimea where Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt met from February 4 to 11, 1945, to discuss the post-war scenario.

Roosevelt was pro nationalist China. US Senate was lobbied by appeal of May Ling Soong, who is Madame Chiang Kai-Shek. Churchill care for Europe affair. 

Stalin's stand was pro independant state of  Mongolia.

So following agreement is important document on Mongolia internationally

------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------
AGREEMENT REGARDING JAPAN
The leaders of the three great powers - the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain - have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that:
1. The status quo in Outer Mongolia (the Mongolian People's Republic) shall be preserved.
2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.:
(a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union;
(b) The commercial port of Dairen shall be internationalized, the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union in this port being safeguarded, and the lease of Port Arthur as a naval base of the U.S.S.R. restored;
The Chinese-Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian Railroad, which provide an outlet to Dairen, shall be jointly operated by the establishment of a joint Soviet-Chinese company, it being understood that the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union shall be safeguarded and that China shall retain sovereignty in Manchuria;
3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.
It is understood that the agreement concerning Outer Mongolia and the ports and railroads referred to above will require concurrence of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The President will take measures in order to maintain this concurrence on advice from Marshal Stalin.
The heads of the three great powers have agreed that these claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated.
For its part, the Soviet Union expresses it readiness to conclude with the National Government of China a pact of friendship and alliance between the U.S.S.R. and China in order to render assistance to China with its armed forces for the purpose of liberating China from the Japanese yoke.
Joseph Stalin
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Winston S. Churchill
February 11, 1945
--------------------------------------------


After the WWII, Soviets  induced the Republic of China to recognize Outer Mongolia's independence, provided that a referendum was held. The referendum took place on October 20, 1945, with, according to official numbers, 100% of the electorate voting for independence.


After the establishment of the People's Republic of China,
People's Republic of Mongolia was second country after Soviet to recognize People's Republic of China. So both countries recognized each other on October 6, 1949.
So MONGOLIA became really INDEPENDANT STATE - de facto and de jure.
[/quote]
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.