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prejudice, discrimination and racism

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  Quote jito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: prejudice, discrimination and racism
    Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 23:34

Hi to all, I came across this site because I'm taking a class on ethnic relations in the U.S and off course immigration, and ethnic and racial differences have come into the lecture.

I see that the immigration topic is closed and it is really funny to see how all take a side, no matter if in favor or against immigration. however the side that each of you takes is shaped by your own experiences.

think about it.

PD: All of us here, either born here or outside are immigrants, unless you are a native American. which that is being an AMERICAN.

MJG
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 23:39
No body here is opposed to legal immigration but only illegal immigration! But there are some who would use the racist card even though it has nothing to do with race, it just happens that most illegal immigrants are from certain countries.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 23:58
Originally posted by jito

Hi to all, I came across this site because I'm taking a class on ethnic relations in the U.S and off course immigration, and ethnic and racial differences have come into the lecture.

I see that the immigration topic is closed and it is really funny to see how all take a side, no matter if in favor or against immigration. however the side that each of you takes is shaped by your own experiences.

think about it.

PD: All of us here, either born here or outside are immigrants, unless you are a native American. which that is being an AMERICAN.

Be careful when you take any course with the word "Ethnic" in the title at a university.  Be even more careful if you are taking a course with the word "Ethnic" in the title, and it is offered by the Sociology department.  Professors of these courses are often post-modernists and historical revisionists with degrees from diploma mills.

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  Quote jito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 22:37

Well emperor, what i see is that the racist card has a lot to do with it, because of US immigration history, the preference for Western Europeans over southern and the time it took for black people to become "Free."

Whether legal or illegal, race has to do with it. you might want to consider that there are 3 groups terribly discriminated in this country from which none of them came here voluntarily. African Americans, were brought as slaves and they had no option. Mexicans were introduced by force during the Spanish Mexican war, and were supposed to be respected by the Guadalupe Hidalgo treaty, but that 1/3 of land was Mexican. and finally, the ones who were here, were reduced to small reservations, in which land was not much fertile, and every time there was something of value, they were forced to move.

with that antecedent you can say for sure that race had to do with it. a

actually there was a whole movement calle the Eugenics movement previous to the birth of the KKK, which supported scientifically that some people according to their race was inferior. and guess who were the races that were in inferior, off course a white with Down syndrome would had been 10 times smarter that a black.

more over, immigration form certain parts of the world has to do with conditions established by the U.S. for example, Mexicans and the bracero program, that was the reason of the American dream in Mexico... what about Cuba. Haiti after independence was intervened by the U.S and the first thing they did was to remove their golden bars and take them to N.Y. 

what a coincidence that all that happened in the southern hemisphere inhabiter by "inferior, black, mindless" people, while Europe actually received a Marshall plan. and Europe had already exploited the same region for couple of 100 years.

then you see that it really has to do with race. yesterday i came across a kkk site in which they want you to denounce illegal immigrants. and declare the supremacy of the white Christian men.

well as i finish my research on immigration i will be telling you more, however if you have anything to prove you point it would be more than welcome.  it would help my paper.

thanks to all.

MJG
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 23:07

I am not denying that American immigration policy in the past has been discriminatory.  In fact, I was not even talking about immigration in my previous post.  I was warning you about the academic cranks that often inhabit Sociology and Ethnic Studies departments at universities.  Do not think that I am calling your professor a crank, because I have never heard him lecture or read any of his work.  If you know what postmodernism and historical revisionism is, then you can begin to recognize the buzzwords and language that subscribers to these dangerous theories use in their lectures.

If you want to know my personal view on immigration, I will tell you.  I think the border with Mexico is way too porous and needs to be sealed off.  In this day and age, with the threat of international terrorism constantly looming overhead, the present border policy of this country is even more dangerous to America's sovereignty and national defense.

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  Quote strategos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 23:19
Originally posted by jito

what a coincidence that all that happened in the southern hemisphere inhabiter by "inferior, black, mindless" people, while Europe actually received a Marshall plan. and Europe had already exploited the same region for couple of 100 years.

Darwins theory of survival of the fittest was changed and adapted to justify the colonization of Africa and parts of Asia. These people were militaraly and thus politically inferior compared to most European countries. They were easy to take over because they were weak, while making war with European countries could be more costly and risky.

Oh and yes, your KKK does not prove much, they are a radical group of southern Supremisists. There are plenty of black, hispanic, Middle Eastern, and Asian radical groups that state that other races are inferior to their own as well..



Edited by strategos
http://theforgotten.org/intro.html
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 00:06
Jito,

I join Byzantine Emperor with his warnings about ethnic studies classes, but I come from a different perspective.

Ethnic studies provides an interesting tool to understand people. It was only after learning the ethnic studies paradigm that I felt that I could really understand religious wars--in many cases, they are really about ethnic conflicts. Even social classes in most of Europe tend to have an ethnic origen if we dig deep enough.

That being said, many ethnic studies academics just parrot back the paradigm and expect the same from their students. In other words, it becomes some kind of faith creed. And most faith creeds lead to intellectual laziness.

Most, although not all, post-modernist are just lazy thinkers, more interested in appearance than in real intellectual debate. I have not come across any post-modernist that I can truly respect, but I am sure that one exists out there; it has been the case that I have never come in contact with their writings. For most, post-modernism is a thinking vice, just as most schools of thought are if not used critically.

That being said, I am interested in learning what Byzantine Emperor thinks post-modernism and historical revisionism is and why they are so "dangerous." Would you be so kind to explain, Byzantine Emperor?

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 00:26

Originally posted by hugoestr

Most, although not all, post-modernist are just lazy thinkers, more interested in appearance than in real intellectual debate. I have not come across any post-modernist that I can truly respect, but I am sure that one exists out there; it has been the case that I have never come in contact with their writings. For most, post-modernism is a thinking vice, just as most schools of thought are if not used critically.

Yes, you are correct in that it is a thinking vice.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I will try to explain what I have learned postmodernism to be.  Basically, to the postmodernist, there are no cold hard facts.  We are all blobs of expressionless, featureless, genderless material moving around in an open plain.  Everything that we see and feel is created by language...if one can harness the power of language, one can control and create realities.  To the postmodernist, Primary source texts have no real value and the author rarely states what really happened -- how do we know the ancient and medieval worlds really existed?  We must offer a critique of these texts, "deconstruct" them, and read into them what we want.  Postmodernism denies an individual his race, gender, and beliefs.  It can lead to terrible cases of historical revisionism, such as denying that the Holocaust ever occured or downplaying its moral degeneracy.  Nazi thinkers were masters of using postmodernism to assert their racist propaganda.

Hopefully I have made myself clear in why I think postmodernism and historical revisionism is dangerous. 

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2005 at 23:27
Your answer seems more or less right.

From your answer I make the following commentary:

1. No one can successfully argue against objective reality or against logic. Those who do are contradicting themselves when they use logical arguments to support their claim.

Denying objective reality brings up a paradox: it is the objective truth that there is no objective truth.

This really is the money shot against postmodernist that deny objective reality.

2. They are right to a certain extent about how language can create and control social reality--up to a certain point. No amount of pretty language is going to fix an economy in shambles, clean the air, or bring back the death. On the other hand, political atmospheres have been created by language, worldviews are framed using language, and even personal identity uses langauge to define its reality. The main problem with the argument is absolutes--once we qualify properly, their claim has some validity.

3. Deconstructing text has its place. We can look, for example, at Nazi propaganda, and see how the text was colored by the authors experience in WWI, their feelings of hopelessness and dispair, and their found strenght and pride in stating that they were better than the jews.

There is an excellent book that deconstructs Donald Duck comic books. It is called How to Read Donald Duck.

4. Historical revisionism is not exclusive to post-modernist. Everyone does it. Many "traditions" that countries have started less than 100 years ago. In fact, many conservatives are really into re-inventing the past, making it more glorious, more orderly, more rational than it really was.

It seems that we agree on this topic. It is now time to ask Jito about his opinion on a small chat.

Edited by hugoestr
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  Quote jito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 19:47

Hi to all again, thanks for all you said i did not really read all carefully because i have to take a test today before 11 pm and i have not finishing studying, but i promise i will take a took at it and try to give you guys my opinion on that one. however, i saw many new ideas to me, you all seem to be very professional and educated, which makes me fell a bit ignorant while finishing my INR Major at FIU. well guys. hope i learn a lot from you and that  can get back to you before Monday.

take care.

 

MJG
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  Quote jito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 19:48

It seems that we agree on this topic. It is now time to ask Jito about his opinion on a small chat.

by the way is HER...

thanks bye.

MJG
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2005 at 21:24
Originally posted by jito

It seems that we agree on this topic. It is now time to ask Jito about his opinion on a small chat.<SPAN =smText/SPAN>


<SPAN =smText>by the way is HER...</SPAN>


<SPAN =smText>thanks bye.

</SPAN>


Sorry, Jito.

You have to understand that we only have three or four women in this site.

That said, what is your opinion on our discussion?
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  Quote jito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 12:49

O.k it is me again, and i see that my first reply got to the wrong people, the racist thing has to do with the comment made by Emperor (solo) not by Byzantine. however, i think that you are right and without all the wording that you know, i said it simpler, there are facts, not shown by a professor, there are statistics of many sources, gov, ethnic groups, movements... etc. and those ate the facts that no language, and no lecture can dismiss. off course they can be 100% altered by language and the perception that the one transmitting it has, which in turn will affect the listeners point of view.

so guys I agree on what you said, so far my teacher has been presenting us with two sides of the same coin, and with more factual data than mere interpretations. so i guess he is more like a hystorian... but will See the semester is not over yet.

thanks.

MJG
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2005 at 13:06
US migration history has evolved from being anglo-centric, first shunning the Irish and germans, then reluctantly accepting them and other West Europeans, but shunning southern Europeans, then growing on them and shuning Eastern Europeans and so on.
All the while christian middle easterners were allowed to migrate into the country because they are technicly caucasian (caucasoid actualy, though rebranded in the US), nowadays most immigration quotas are in favour of Pacific-rim immigration.
The history of US immigration policiy is intresting, and very wierd, as is the rift between official census and immigration policy, and public attitudes towards immigration and race.

Between a 1/4 and 1/3 of European migrants went home to Europe after working in the US for a few years, not alot of people know that[/micheal came accent]


Edited by Cywr
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