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Cavalry in history

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  Quote Vlad Catrina Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cavalry in history
    Posted: 29-May-2005 at 12:40
I believe that a battlefield could`t be something "real" without cavalry. It had a decisive role in every wars.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 13:27

There were plenty of battles in ancient times before cavalry existed and in modern times since it's ceased to exist. The early Romans were never that big on it, neither were the greek city states, it never really effected their efficiency.

Also many parts of the world Americas/Africa had no cavalry.

As for cavalry vs infantry. One of the great military what if's for me is a Napoleon leading a French army in Zululand with infantry, guns and cavalry vs Shaka Zulu with only infantry. I think Nappy would get stuffed.



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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2005 at 15:51
I agree to some extent, cavalry is a striking sight on the battlefield, as well as effective shock troops and/or archers.

However, in early medieval Scandinavia and Britain, cavalry warfare was a rare sight. One would often ride a horse to battle, but then dismount to fight on foot. In Britain this changed abruptly with the Norman conquest, while in Scandinavia it was a more gradual process.
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  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 03:45

LMAO zulus armed with spears vs Napolean.are u serious.

 

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 04:25

As for cavalry vs infantry. One of the great military what if's for me is a Napoleon leading a French army in Zululand with infantry, guns and cavalry vs Shaka Zulu with only infantry. I think Nappy would get stuffed.

 I seriously doubt that. French soldiers had a tradition of being seriously outnumbered by less discipline armies and yet managed to win. For instance during the napoleonic, 1500 french infantry hold 35,000 turk cavalry at the battle of Mont talbot for hours and hours until 3,000 reinforment came to defeat the turks. You have another example as a huge mameluke cavalry rushing french squares at the batle of the pyramids, yet they couldn't win. Also you 25,000 chinese besieging 500 frenchmen during the sino-french, the 500 frenchmen hold for 3 months until french reinforcement came and rout the chinese. Many battles were fought in madagascar and africa against redoutable enemy yet, when fully prepared french forces are almost always triumphant. I know the zulus were well discipline and could outrun a horse but i doubt the french army would have made similar mistake to what the english did. Arrogance is what defeated the english.

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 09:30
The idea that Napoleon would have been defeated by Shaka is ludicrous. Shaka could field at it's most 40 000 men, whereas Napoleon had more than a million. Even if the french were heavily outnumbered they would win, the zulus would have been shot to pieces by the french artillery and would never have been able to break through a solid square of bayonets, or stand against a charge of carabiniers
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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 11:28
Altough, somehow they massacred the Brits.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 13:04

I think the Zulus would win, notice I said French invading Zululand, hundreds of square miles of barren plain with no buildings, fortifications or cover. Nowhere for the French to take cover or hold up in.

If the Zulus fought the French in the European theatre they would most certainly lose.

Shaka could field only 40,000 men but do you really think Nappy would send 500,000 men and the old guard to Southern Africa. Something closer to the Egyption expedition is more realistic.

The Zulus were a highly trained disiplined forces with excellent command structures, regimental and brigade systems, well drilled soldier in regular bodies and superb scouting. Their organisation was comperable to the Romans.

Artillery would prove practically useless against zulu as it did for the British, Zulu prefering not to fight pitched battles but highly mobile warfare. Also maneuvering artillery over 100s of miles slow the French down.

It is a common maxim among military historians that the only reason the British won the Zulu War was because they had the Martini-Henry rifle and if they hadn't would have lost. Hence the theory a European muzzle loading musket army would have been defeated.

Finally European, American and Asian armies throughout history have been defeated time and time again by forces worse than Zulus after for marching day/weeks/months in barren wilderness's after armies that have a retreat into the terrain to use against them.

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  Quote Kentuckian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2005 at 23:50
Napolean's cavalry at Waterloo...now there was a slaughter.
"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones

"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt

"This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 01:05

Finally European, American and Asian armies throughout history have been defeated time and time again by forces worse than Zulus after for marching day/weeks/months in barren wilderness's after armies that have a retreat into the terrain to use against them.

 I have yet to find a case where an army armed with stabbing spears or medieval weaponry, have overwhelmed and defeated a french post renaissance army of more than 1500 men. You better go read about french war  against the samori in a very hostile environment similar to zulu lan. The samori also have modern rifle, yet they couldn't match a sizeable french forces deep into their territory and was finally conquered.

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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 05:26

Originally posted by Paul

chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

I think the Zulus would win, notice I said French invading Zululand, hundreds of square miles of barren plain with no buildings, fortifications or cover. Nowhere for the French to take cover or hold up in.

>>

They wouldn't need to, fortified camps would do it>>

Shaka could field only 40,000 men but do you really think Nappy would send 500,000 men and the old guard to Southern Africa. Something closer to the Egyption expedition is more realistic.
>>

No, but as I said, even an outnumbered french force would prevail>>

The Zulus were a highly trained disiplined forces with excellent command structures, regimental and brigade systems, well drilled soldier in regular bodies and superb scouting. Their organisation was comperable to the Romans.
>>

Undoubtely they were. But then, so were the troops of Napoleon...>>

Artillery would prove practically useless against zulu as it did for the British, Zulu prefering not to fight pitched battles but highly mobile warfare. Also maneuvering artillery over 100s of miles slow the French down.
>>

The british used only a comparably small number of field-artillery, yet british guns proved effective at Gingindlovu, Nyezane, Khambula and Ulundi>>

It is a common maxim among military historians that the only reason the British won the Zulu War was because they had the Martini-Henry rifle and if they hadn't would have lost. Hence the theory a European muzzle loading musket army would have been defeated.
>>

It's not really that easy. Keep in mind that boers with only muzzle-loaders repeatedly defeated large zulu armies - at Bloet River for instance the zulus lost some 3000 men to the boer muskets, and at Wegkopf a small number of boers killed more than a 1000 Ndebele... >>

Finally European, American and Asian armies throughout history have been defeated time and time again by forces worse than Zulus after for marching day/weeks/months in barren wilderness's after armies that have a retreat into the terrain to use against them.
>>

Napoleon's army howewer were not like these armies. Zululand is a comprativly small area, not like the frozen russian plains or the middle eastern deserts>>

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 09:12
It is clear none can compare Zulus and Russians nor their territories, but all can have a bad day. What if it would be raining? Some little help for Zulus. And I believe the uniform of the French Expeditional Armies was quite heavy without being wet, but when it is wet, and the gunpowder horns go wet and so on...
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 15:43
Originally posted by Paul

Shaka could field only 40,000 men but do you really think Nappy would send [...] the old guard to Southern Africa.

if Napoleon went in person then the answer is a 100% yes.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 18:18

Doesnt matter. The Brits came to history as the only modern army defeated by the wild men armed with the weapons of the stone age.

In 20th century the Italians were close to join the Brits in their club of modern armies defeated by wild people but finally they used airforces and gas against them what resulted in great italian victory.

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  Quote Jalisco Lancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 18:33
Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl

[quote]

I have yet to find a case where an army armed with stabbing spears or medieval weaponry, have overwhelmed and defeated a french post renaissance army of more than 1500 men. You better go read about frenchwar against the samori in a very hostile environment similar to zulu lan. The samori also have modern rifle, yet they couldn't match a sizeable french forces deep into their territory and was finally conquered.

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Hello Quetzalcoatl:

Without any animosity towards your beloved France.
But I can bring you an example of an army with stabbing weapons defeating a French army of more than 1,500 men.

The French faced the Zacapoaxtlas and Xochipulcas at Puebla on May 5th, 1862.
The French army was composed by 6,000 marines, colonial forces and cavalry and still were defeated by a Mexican force of 2,000 men ( most of them irregulars ) armed with Machetes and old flint lock Brown Bess rifles, ironically used by the british when they defeated to Napoleon at Waterloo.

More than 500 french were killed compared with only 82 mexican dead.
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 19:06

The French faced the Zacapoaxtlas and Xochipulcas at Puebla on May 5th, 1862.
The French army was composed by 6,000 marines, colonial forces and cavalry and still were defeated by a Mexican force of 2,000 men ( most of them irregulars ) armed with Machetes and old flint lock Brown Bess rifles, ironically used by the british when they defeated to Napoleon at Waterloo.

More than 500 french were killed compared with only 82 mexican dead.

 

 Sorry i don't believe you, 5000 french marine defeated by 2000 irregulars. Got any link. this is hardly believable. All Ive read about the war with mexicans is the pastry war, and most of the time the marines had the upper hand in many battle.



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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 19:30
Originally posted by Mosquito

Doesnt matter. The Brits came to history as the only modern army defeated by the wild men armed with the weapons of the stone age.

In 20th century the Italians were close to join the Brits in their club of modern armies defeated by wild people but finally they used airforces and gas against them what resulted in great italian victory.

 

Wow! This must be a record, Mosqito's gone 13 whole post before saying something inciteful. Do I rise to the challenge

The British are a long way from the only ones defeated by a tribal peoples. The Zulus stone age weapons included muskets and some rifles.

And as to these so called "wild men". Who is the more civilised a strong proud independant tribal people with stone age weapons or a race that spends it's whole history kissing foreign conqueror's bottom.



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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2005 at 19:53

Originally posted by Paul

Wow! This must be a record, Mosqito's gone 13 whole post before saying something inciteful. Do I rise to the challenge

The British are a long way from the only ones defeated by a tribal peoples. The Zulus stone age weapons included muskets and some rifles.

And as to these so called "wild men". Who is the more civilised a strong proud independant tribal people with stone age weapons or a race that spends it's whole history kissing foreign conqueror's bottom.

Soon you will tell us that Zulus had air cavalry.

If you could tell me more about the race wich spent "it's whole history kissing foreign conqueror's bottom" i would be glad to learn about it.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 01:05
air calvary?
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2005 at 03:58

Doesnt matter. The Brits came to history as the only modern army defeated by the wild men armed with the weapons of the stone age.

In 20th century the Italians were close to join the Brits in their club of modern armies defeated by wild people but finally they used airforces and gas against them what resulted in great italian victory.

Nope, this list is much longer:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=634& PN=5

 

...and please don't turn this topic in another flamewar



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