Little Turkey in the middle of Europe

These are quick links.. on Hellenic Assistance to the Kurds.. and involment.. take a look at all of the BBC one's then the 2. one but ignore it if you like only look at the references and media parts.. the third one.. is simialr to the BBC.. but from a kurd site..

1.BBC news.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/287232.stm

   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/286849.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/280817.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281322.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281815.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/358115.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/280690.stm


2. This is a turkish source, so my advice would be to check the reference newspapers and source it gives you
http://www.atmg.org/GrecoPKK.html

3. This I believe is a kurdish source.. but it talks only on the capture of the leader of PKK.. might be some other greek references apart from that..
http://www.kurdistanica.com/english/politics/analysis/analys is-105.html



Edited by baracuda

I meant EU

Turkish newspapers described the capture as a national triumph over arch enemy Greece. They say Turkish special forces flew to Kenya in an executive jet and snatched the leader from under the nose of the Greeks.

Media......

"spartakus" - Why 3 posts? no-one is blaming the greece or the greeks for anything, someone asked for reference and I put links to it from the BBC.. no need for panic you don't need to defend anything ( BTW the second link wasnt working fixed it now.) And cutting the news like that makes it seem something other than what the british media said.. so here it is for the interested..

first BBC link...

High-level links However, Mr Ocalan was brought to Greece despite the desperate wish of the government not to get embroiled in the problem of securing his asylum in Europe. It was done by a shadowy group of Greek nationalists, sympathetic to the Kurds, hostile to Turkey, possessing high-level links with the Greek security services. The outgoing Greek interior minister - who had to resign over the Ocalan affair - pointedly referred to the security services as an autonomous state agency. If the allegations of an official Greek policy to help the Kurdish armed struggle are not be believed, many here are wondering if committed individuals, or even officials, might be implicated in the kind of support for the Kurdish cause which Ankara is claiming.

second BBC link...

Individual donations more likely Observers say it is highly unlikely that the rich and influential state-sponsored church, which officially claims the allegiance of 98% of Greece's population, would give funds to the PKK. But it is highly possible that individual priests had encouraged donations for the rebel movement. Many Greek Orthodox believers sympathise with the Kurds and the church has traditional nationalist leanings. Archbishop Christodoulos has himself upset politicians by denouncing Turks as "barbarians" and has called on Greeks to "liberate Constantinople" in reference to the historic heart of orthodoxy, now present-day Istanbul. The church will be under considerable pressure to distance itself from Mr Ocalan's reported remarks, which is likely increase tension between Greece and Turkey

BBC links 3 it about the capture, 4 pretty straight forward.. with the Cypriot Passport, the connection of some politicians, resignitions, and defining it stain on modern greece by some Pasok MP..

BBC link 5

Mr Ocalan was captured and returned to Turkey on Monday after hiding out at the Greek ambassador's residence in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi. There had been speculation that the Greek government may have been seeking an African country willing to offer asylum to the Kurdish rebel leader. Mr Papadopoulos was in charge of Greek intelligence services, which were believed to be deeply involved in the operation to send and protect Abdullah Ocalan in Kenya. Mr Petsalnikos, whose ministry is in charge of security forces, is being blamed for failing to prevent a small group of Kurdish sympathisers from smuggling Mr Ocalan into Greece last month. For years, Greek officials have expressed support for Kurdish self-determination, but cautiously avoided direct aid to Ocalan's Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK. The government spokesman said the Greek prime minister would seek a judicial inquiry into those who brought Mr Ocalan into Greece on 29 January. He said: "The prime minister asked that responsibility be sought from all of those people who beyond every sense of reality and beyond every limit of national duty ... brought Abdullah Ocalan to Greece."

BBC link 6

The Kurdish rebel leader, Abdullah Ocalan, has said that his organisation, the PKK, received support from several countries in the past, including Greece, Syria and Iran.       Mr Ocalan, speaking on the second day of his trial on charges of causing the deaths of thousands during the 15-year armed struggle of the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), reportedly said that contacts in Greece had helped to procure surface-to-air missiles for the PKK.

ok.. he might have been presured, but I doubt it, as I remember seing a picture of a greek officer in uniform teaching these people.. I'll post it if I can find it on the internet.

BBC Link 7..

Mr Godana told a news conference that Kenya had asked the Greek government for the immediate recall of the ambassador. "It is no longer possible to trust the ambassador as serious doubts about his credibility have been created," he said. The presence of Mr Ocalan in the country raised serious security concerns, he said. "We would not have expected a friendly country like Greece to subject Kenya to such an awkward situation giving rise to suspicion and possible attack." Contradicting the official Greek Government line, he stated that the rebel leader had left for "a destination known to the Greek authorities. "We would like to assure everybody, Kurds included, that we had no role in this affair," he said. He added that Kenya had had no contact with Turkey over the affair. Ocalan's 13 days in Kenya The Kurdish rebel leader had arrived in Kenya from Milan, Italy, on 2 February aboard a private jet, along with four other people, all travelling under assumed names, the minister said. Clearance for the arrival of the plane had been sought by the Greek embassy, the minister added, and the ambassador, George Costorlas, had briefly boarded the aircraft, then left it along with the passengers without going through any formalities. The foreign minister added: "We are puzzled as to why Kenya was chosen as a destination for Ocalan. "It is possible that the Greek authorities may have taken advantage of the strong friendly relations existing between our two countries, which raises serious questions about their sincerity and trustworthiness."

Well this is what the Kenyan's said... on sincerity and trustworthiness.


the number 2. link is a more turkish approach to it, although the news is said to be from 'the Observer' the archives of the observer online go back to 98.. so I cant comment on the validity..

but here are some of the references it makes, they are from the hellenic resources network..

94-U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT Patterns of Global Terrorism:

http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/94/euro.html

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE 1996 APRIL: PATTERNS OF GLOBAL TERRORISM, 1995

http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/95/europe.html#Greece

actaully go here.. and look through them all ...

http://www.hri.org/docs/USSD-Terror/

read the 'introduction', 'Greece' and Turkey parts if you like..

Anyway I hope this is enough to show envolvement.. (p.s. those reports might also show involment of other european countries)

"spartakus" - Why 3 posts? no-one is blaming the greece or the greeks for anything, someone asked for reference and I put links to it from the BBC.. no need for panic you don't need to defend anything ( BTW the second link wasnt working fixed it now.) And cutting the news like that makes it seem something other than what the british media said.. so here it is for the interested..

I wanted to make clear some things and believe me i do not panic so easily nor i am defending anything.

Originally posted by AyKurt Im an ethnic Turk in Europe.� Born and bred in Eorupe.� If there was a "Little Turkey" created in the EU what incentive would i have to move there? Also another question i have is what reason would there be to establish such a state?� I would think it would only weaken our influence in Europe as we would be concentrated in one part rather than spread throughout the EU. How would it be of a benefit to Turkish Europeans to have such a state? I would rather see more organisation among European Turks than the creation of a state.� It seems Turks here arent organised in a clear and progressive way.� We should focus on being a part of Europe than being seperate from it.

Gain.. well desruption of european 'rest' and totality in the area.. and possibly the EU, as such a muslim state could be very influential, as it would be impossible for the EU to even touch such a state due to the support it would get from the muslim world..

As for your thoughts on organization I cant agree more, this post is to show some poeple whats really going on here in the middle east as some of them don't realize what their own countries are doing.... so this is just an example..

Originally posted by AyKurt Im glad you agree with me about organisation.� How do you think Turks in the EU and Turks generally could be better organised?

That's a sure way to ask for trouble. Of course it depends on what type of organization you're talking about, but an ethnic minority "getting organized" is a sure thing to increase xenophobia and/or racism - people generally don't like such states in the state. If you want to be politically engaged, devote yourself to the state instead, try to make it better for everyone instead of a select few. As said, I have no idea what kind of organization you're talking about, so I might wrong.

I dont think the "muslim world" would be as supportive as u think

Well I know, I know.. but then again they just might.. as they could benefit from this state in some way.... I know that its less than 90 years back they sold us out to the highest bidder.. but who knows times change, they know what the word 'turk' means when it comes to war.

and why would this hypothetical state want such support based on religion? History shows that perhaps as far as Turks are concerned our musilm "brothers" arent as so supportive. Anyway i wouldnt want to live in a religious state.

You see I can tell that you are a turk from these sentences haha

The EU can just ignore such a state and it would be powerless. The only obvious way such a state would be influential would be if there was economic reasons. If alot of Turkish businesses based themselves there. But you dont need a state to do that as any location can be used to create a Turkish business centre. Wouldnt Turks be more influential if they had such centres in a number of EU countries rather than in one state?

Yes, they can.. but think of it this way.. if the state has connection with outside of EU, grows economically to be a giant technological or financial center, then EU would be forced to notice the state for moneysake
Centers well.. you see there is a little problem with that of control, defence (in a sense that they are dependent of limitations and laws fair or unfair forced upon them, including different laws which pulsate as political parties change.. so It would be much better to have a state..

How do you think Turks in the EU and Turks generally could be better organised?

It wont help.. you see it comes from the saying " If a tree falls down in the middle of a forest with no one to hear, falls silently" -
I think the greeks actually need the turks to some degree to keep the attention on themselves, and they do what they do best, they talk... there are more believers of some X story in EU than there is anywhere... and these stories are not fiction to them but fact and reality. Even when their own history dis-proves them, they just shrug and continue on to some other theme.. (history as in arhives,treaties...)Its very sad.

    These all have to be changed, either using their own arhives and series of politics, to put it to their heads that we wont let them play with toys any more... or through a series of very harsh strategic planning making intentions known..

Organizing to do something.. mmm Well, I dont know if thats possible.. its just not in the nature of a 'turk'.. we don't go to extremes, we dont whine, and we just dont stand up for ourselves until there is a war.. I mean.. organize.. ok.. it would be more of a club.. get together place than something else
   
       

Originally posted by Cywr Alevis in Germany are very organised, though some people in Turkey aren;t very happy with that from what i've heard.

I dont think its because of the Alevi's, I would think that its because of their agenda's being vague or off to what they really are...

(and not only alevi's there are some muslims organizations which I personally see as a threat to EU)

"Cywr" you know Im actually interested what will happen later.. there are so many such organizations and support for radicallist groups in and outside the EU that it will eventually be the headache of all EU countries..if it already isnt.