Turkey Shoots Down Russian Jet Fighter

Wars & the military most surely do have 'rules', & violation of such rules can be deemed 'crimes'..

Well, according to the rules, you are entitled to shoot the pilot in his plane, while he is bombing you..

Sure, point taken, & Russians were never AFAIR, - known for being 'gentlemanly' in such matters..

Rules and regulations...as noted by J.A.W. have been around for a while now...and only the most obdurate would refuse to acknowledge a well known fact of reality.

Adherence to them is another question. As is the acceptance and enforcement.

And as I noted, Poland for example, is a signature and by de facto enforcing agent of the same. The Turks not and obviously not the rebels committing the war crime...for whether 'liked or not'. Proto 1, Art 42, exists and is recognized in NATO...less Turkey.

The history of the 'courtesies-conditions-behaviors' of war...which became the 'rules and conduct of governing' it, is an old story (dating from ancient eras)(Sources including: Biblical-Indian manuscripts-Koran-Medieval Church and Secular) and can be easily researched.

A more recent example was the claimed inadvertent bombing of a hospital in Afghanistan.

Human error led to deadly U.S. strike on Afghan hospital: military

''Some U.S. personnel were suspended and could face disciplinary action after failing to follow U.S. rules of engagement in a war zone, said U.S. Army General John Campbell, who leads international forces in Afghanistan.''...

continues@ http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/25/us-afghanistan-attack-msf-investigation-idUSKBN0TE1XH20151125

Those 'rules of engagement' are directly based on the 'Law of Land warfare' and the UCMJ; in turn in keeping with the protocols of the GC.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 28-Nov-2015 at 16:26

Originally posted by Mosquito Well, Polish soldiers who killed civilians in Afganistan had accusations based on Polish law, not international. http://jurist.org/forum/2015/04/milena-serio-war-crimes.php

Not uncommon...actually quite common; given the parameters of most Status of Forces Agreements (SOF) between a participating nation and a host.

In this case; the soldiers in question: ''Warsaw military court acquitted four Polish soldiers of war crimes over the killing of six civilians in Afghanistan in 2007.''

Cc: Mosquito's link.

Which further corroborates the general agreement of jurisdiction as agreed upon. Which is generally found in SOF's. This however does not detract that the Poles remain signatures of the afore noted, many times, Proto's and provisions of the GC. Which is after investigation, why their trial was conducted in the first place.

This often proves contentious, ie. criminal jurisdiction; among the parties.

As has Turkey's refusal to sign the GC.


This was, and remains, further exacerbated by a war crime committed by their rebel allies.

Murder is Murder. Don't straw it. Both while relative given context and era; remain murder.


In this most recent case....the Turks and their inability to control their Rebel allies and their allies act remain responsible for actions commited during military operations...which make it a War Crime.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 30-Nov-2015 at 12:54

Yeah, I heard that Putin is going to make more of it, virtually accusing the Islamist Turkish Gov't as

Originally posted by Aeoli 1-Turkey didn't attacked Russian Plane just because it was attacking Syrian Rebels. It was border violation. 2-The situation is not ally situation in WW. Turkey is not active part of war against Assad. 3-If Turkey is responsible for action of their Syrian allies ?, don't you think that USA is responsible for that war crime becuase they are ally with Turkey. 4-Unfortunetly, as always be, winners never punish for their war crimes. This destroys all meaning of the point.

************************************************************************

1. That was never the question.

2. True enough in part...as they have bought ISIS oil....which has helped fund them...and yet released Incirlik again for anti-ISIS ops.
Iow. the Turkish government is riding the fence.....again.


3. Absolutely and therein lies the failure of the current administration to lead and to advise.

4. True enough and the Turks, like many others, have committed or aided atrocities...one in particular comes to mind.

The great Ataturk, no doubt, is disgusted with your entire performance to date.


Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 01-Dec-2015 at 19:16

Iv been to Turkey many times. First time in 1989 and many times after it. I got friends in Turkey. One of them escaped for two years to Poland.. in 90ties. He didnt want to be conscripted to the army and lived in Poland untill his affairs in Turkey were settled. That time he often lived in my home. When one of the members of this forum - Diplomat - has asked, I took to some extent care for Turkish student in my city who came to university here on ERASMUS stipendium program.

Personaly I got great sympathy for Turkish people and the last thing I could say about the Turks is that they are evil. The Turks are friendly and warm people.

However I must admitt that I see the changes which happend there and that Turkey dont live with the ideals of great Kemal Mustafa Attaturk anymore.

I dont see a problem in nationalism. I always consider it as good and healthy thing for every nation. And I dont think that there are greater nationalists anywhere in the world than in USA which is ultranationalistic.
The problem in Turkey which I can see myself is that Turkish nationalism is somehow merging with religion. The same problem I can also observe in my own country.
Turkey and Poland had in the same time two national heroes - Attaturk and Pilsudski. Neither of them wanted their country to become "too religious" and both supported nationalist but secular state. Actually when I think about them I can see more similar things than differences.



Edited by Mosquito - 02-Dec-2015 at 19:50