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Semiramis

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Semiramis
    Posted: 07-Jan-2015 at 12:07
It looks like i may possibly have been wrong about Semiramis, though possibly not. I've rearranged the first post matches point by point. It is possible that they might perhaps be able to each and all be picked apart because i wasn't careful with my sources. It looks like Semiramis could be any of a number of times (including Nimrod, Gilgamesh, Sargon, Hammurabi, Tukltininurta, Shamsiadad 5).

Semiramis: name Semiramis/S(h)ammu-ramat/Shamiram (supposed/proposed to be from summat "dove (goddess loves her)", or shem "name" + aram "exalted", or  shemiramoth "images/things of Shemiram", or "manifestation of the exalted", or "Semiramis goddesses"]).
Hammurabi: name (C)hammu-rabi/Khammu Rabi/Khammuragas/kimta-rapashti/'ammu-rapi (from Sumerian khammu/khamu/khamala "lotus/plant" or a god Hammu or 'ammu "paternal kinsman", + raba/rabi "great" or rapi "healer"?); (and/or Shamsiadad 1/[Sosarmos])
Homai: Homai.
[There are some known other possible examples of s(h)/(c)h and m/g/b interchanges within/between the languages.]

Semiramis: legendary/myth, mentioned in/by Berosus,
Hammurabi: historical/archaeological, not mentioned in Berosus / one source reckons he is also mentioned in/by Berosus?

Semiramis: described as “king”/“wore a garment that did not show whether she was man or woman”/queen,
Hammurabi: toga like robe [that looks feminine-ish-like], (darling of the sun god,) king/lugal/en/"lord";
Homai: queen.

Semiramis: Babylon(ian)/Assyria/Chaldea queen,
Hammurabi: Babylon king, [Old Assyrian Period,] A list of Hammurabi's ancestors has some same names as early kings of Assyrian king list.

Semiramis: 42yrs (or 55yrs Belus) (62 yrs old),
Hammurabi: 42yrs or 55 yrs, [21 yrs / 56 yrs Venus tablets?],
Homai: 32 yrs.

Semiramis: wife of Ninus son of Belus,
Hammurabi: associated with/close to date of Belus,

Semiramis: warrior/conquered whole middle eastern world/invaded Kush & India/military campaign against Medes & Chaldeans,
Hammurabi: a victorious general/warrior / won series of wars / all of Mesopotamia / empire,
Homai: Persian.
Pundarika: Indian.

Semiramis: founded/(re-)built Babylon/Hanging Gardens/embankments/walls/many cities,
Hammurabi: public works/great builder of cities/irrigation systems/temples/fortifications/walls, had to deal with floods,

Semiramis: daughter of Syrianess, Syrian letters,
Hammurabi: Amorite/W Semit/from Syria,

Semiramis: Ninus demanded Semiramis from Menones/[Onnes],
Hammurabi: demanded return of statues taken by Khedorlaomer,

Semiramis: of Mede mountains (north), (campaign against Medes,) 'Semiramis Mts' (Persia).
Hammurabi: Kassite from Elam mountains,
Homai: Persian.

Semiramis: “woman of palace of Shamsi-adad [5?]”,
Hammurabi: conquered Shamsi-adad [1]'s dyn,

Semiramis: "1st", [1st king of Assyria, built Nineveh,] start of Babylonian history,
Hammurabi: [Old Assyrian/Shamsiadad 1,] 1st Babylonian dyn/Old Babylonian/Hammurabi, [Venus tablets].

Semiramis: Nineveh/Ninus/Ninyas, Ishtar/Astarte,
Hammurabi: Nineveh temple of Ishtar, [Venus tablets],

Semiramis: plants/flowers/trees/hanging gardens,
Hammurabi: lotus/plant,
Pundarika: lotus.

Semiramis: Shammuramat-Su,
Hammurabi: Nahar-Khammurabi,

Semiramis: beauty, (semi) divine/deity/goddess,
Hammurabi: lotus a symbol of beauty and divinity,

Semiramis: date 2200/2192/2182/2006/1996/1987/1965/1910 / 1255 / "c800/740" ; Ctesias' Attosa ("Semiramis (2)"?) date 1448- 1425/1428-1421;
Hammurabi: date "2290-2235"; [&/or "ca 1565-1522 bc" for Hammurabi?]; [synchronism of 1st Bab dyn with 13th dynasty of Egypt (Moses ca 1400s was end of 12th dyn)]; [still-present orthodox 1st Bab dyn date is either 1848 (high) / 1792 (conventional/middle) / 1736 (low) / 16xx (ultrashort/ultralow)]; [Venus tablets have been dated as either 2113/2105 bc / 1977/1956 bc / 1419 bc* / 8th cent bc]; [Hammurabi connection with Kedorlaomer?];

Semiramis: women are known for law even nowadays; Semiramis noted for or associated with wisdom / known for intelligence, &/or "daughter of god of wisdom", "decreed Behistun inscription", Syrian letters, [Simmos/Simmas,] ....
Hammurabi: law code, Shamash/Samas (god of justice/law) gives law code to Hammurabi.

Semiramis: shepherd Simmos/Simmas, Semi-,
Hammurabi: shepherd of his people, Shamash/Samas/Utu, Sippar,

Hammurabi: after Adusin/Abilsin of Babylon, &/or after Waradsin &/or Rim-sin/Eri-aku of Larsa.
Homai: successor of Ardshir.

(I may be wrong about uncertain things like this sometimes, but I'm pretty sure I am not wrong about some other things like the 12 battles of Arthur, etc though.)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 07-Jan-2015 at 12:12
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2015 at 01:10
I will have to point out that there were other rulers who were also named Hammurabi, namely 2 (or 3) kings which ruled Yamkhad (in Syria) at their capital at Aleppo (ancient Khalap) and they were referred to as "kings".

At far as "robe" go, this was the usual garb of the people as well as the kings. See an example of a statue of Gudea for comparison.   Votive statues of everyday people wore the robe.

"Lawgiving" isn't evidence of anything.   Prior to Hammurabi there were other "lawgivers".    Ur-nammu, king of Ur (c. 2100), and Lipit-Ishtar, king of Isin (c. 1940) had "law codes" as well.    Even prior them, such rulers as Uru-inim-gina, king of Lagash (c. 2350) was said to have had a law code.   All of these were men.

All the cumulative traditions regarding "Semiramis" are oontradictory and only slightly useful for historians.   We can't even get a consistent date from them. As already been mentioned. Herodotus is our earliest known source for the Semiramis story, but Ctesias is close in time.   Herodotus makes "Semiramis" as alive centuries later than "Ninos" and six generations before the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus (Semiramis "five generation" before "Nitocris" whose son "Labynetus" II was brought down by Cyrus), but Ctesias make "Semiramis" the wife of "Ninos" at the beginning of Babylonian history, hence we already have a very diverse tradition in the 5th century BC.   


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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2015 at 15:02
welcome back Sharrukin. Smile Star

I agree that Hammurabi was a king. The idea i had was that Semiramis who is legendary was not really a queen but that that is corruption from the robe of Hammurabi on law code stela (&/or lotus etc). I will have to check the other statues like you mention. I don't remember Gudea's looking much like Hammurabi's but more like "Turanian". I could be wrong about Semiramis/Hammurabi.

I believe some of the dates are not literal but "code", or confounded, some do seem to coincide. I guess i will have to try decrypt them if/when time.


belus 2286/2231/semiramis/assyrian 2006 - 1306/[1500?]yrs - median 700bc. (easy/simple version)*

observations Babylon 2234 bc - 1903 yrs - Aristotle 331bc.

kutirnahunte 2285/2220 bc - 1850/1635 yrs - ashurbanipal/650.

... - 1805 yrs - 712bc.

ninus 2192 bc - 1995 yrs - philip 197bc.

babylon built 2231 bc - 1002 yrs - Trojan 1229 bc.

belus - 322yrs - trojan.

observations began 2473/2243 bc - 720/490/[480]yrs - phoroneus/1753 bc.

72 books Bel.

assyria/1220bc - 520 years" - 700bc.

Semiramis 1255bc - 526yrs - Phulus/Pulu/TP 729 bc.

1965 bc/ Ninus & Semiramis 1910bc - (33 desc/1070 y - Sardanapalus/c840bc/Medes - 870yrs) 1995 yrs - V Pat c 30ad.

semiramis "c800/c740bc" - "200yrs"/5gens/6gens/[170/166y?] - nitocris/[last]/labynetus*/cyrus.

king built Borsippa ziggurat - 42 ages - nebuchadnezzr 2.

sargon/naramsin 3750/2750bc - 3200/2200yrs - 550bc/nabonidus [labynetus].

* more confusing version
belus 2286/2231/1st king assyria/built nineveh/ninus/2200/2006/semiramis/start babylonian history/ninyas - 1500 yrs (33/30 gens/decs /"for many"/1500/1400/1360/1306 yrs (20 gens for 1000 yrs (1448/1425/1428/1421) - trojan war 1184bc - 408 yrs) - 776/sardanapalus/800/700bc/median - 9 medes for 250 yrs) - astyages/cyrus/550bc.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 11-Jan-2015 at 15:10
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 01:06
Doubtful if its code.   There is a variance of about 200 years between Eusebius and Syncellus versions of Ctesias. Hence a better explanation is poor transmission of Ctesias work. Again, the difference between Herodotus and Ctesias, is that "Semiramis" is placed by Herodotus toward the end of Assyro-Babylonian history and Ctesias places her toward the beginning.   No code can explain that.
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 19:36
error in transmission slash reporting aside....who then based on academic interp is the most reliable? whose veracity.. all being equal.. stands the test?

there is an old axiom in history that says the 'closer the observer' even he who uses suspect sources (as we might view them) to the alleged event... again all being equal.... reigns supreme.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 20:13
Originally posted by Sharrukin

Doubtful if its code.   There is a variance of about 200 years between Eusebius and Syncellus versions of Ctesias. Hence a better explanation is poor transmission of Ctesias work. Again, the difference between Herodotus and Ctesias, is that "Semiramis" is placed by Herodotus toward the end of Assyro-Babylonian history and Ctesias places her toward the beginning.   No code can explain that.


The way i read Herodotus what he says can mean that she was at beginning of Assyrian/Babylonian history too. The 5/6 generations has a number of possible interpretations.
Naramsin's date is code, and the dates for Old Babylonian are either code or confounded with Babel. The orthodox date for Old Bab Dyn & Akkadian is too early.

Just letting everyone know that I'm offline more now that trying to do the other things i need/want (and hoping the ENT trouble going away)

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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2015 at 20:20
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

error in transmission slash reporting aside....who then based on academic interp is the most reliable? whose veracity.. all being equal.. stands the test?

there is an old axiom in history that says the 'closer the observer' even he who uses suspect sources (as we might view them) to the alleged event... again all being equal.... reigns supreme.


I agree if i understand you correctly (though i guess i may perhaps not always practise it?). Orthodox academia always seem to me to say modern scholars are best and early/original/traditional sources are "suspect" (though they do have their chronologies tracing developments back through literary developments/evolution/embelishments/additions to earliest sources). I'm the opposite i prefer traditional sources over modern scholars theories.

Herodotus' depends on things like what the 5 generations is, etc?

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 02:25
error in transmission slash reporting aside....who then based on academic interp is the most reliable? whose veracity.. all being equal.. stands the test?

there is an old axiom in history that says the 'closer the observer' even he who uses suspect sources (as we might view them) to the alleged event... again all being equal.... reigns supreme.


I would agree. The earlier the narrative is to the event (or source of the event) the stronger the case is that it may be truer to the original source (regardless of veracity of the original source).   In this case Herodotus is older than Ctesias with a narrative different than that of Ctesias.   

The way i read Herodotus what he says can mean that she was at beginning of Assyrian/Babylonian history too. The 5/6 generations has a number of possible interpretations.


I doubt that the word translated as "generation" can mean anything more than how we would use It in modern usage or the span of a reign. If used in as in a span of 25 years, then no more than 150 years until the end of the Babylonian kingdom.   Greeks seem to use generation or the span of a reign like something like 33 years, so in this cause nothing higher than 200 years. A study of Herodotus may yield how he uses the word in other passages.

Naramsin's date is code, and the dates for Old Babylonian are either code or confounded with Babel. The orthodox date for Old Bab Dyn & Akkadian is too early.

Just letting everyone know that I'm offline more now that trying to do the other things i need/want (and hoping the ENT trouble going away)
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 17:52
Originally posted by Sharrukin

I doubt that the word translated as "generation" can mean anything more than how we would use It in modern usage or the span of a reign. If used in as in a span of 25 years, then no more than 150 years until the end of the Babylonian kingdom.   Greeks seem to use generation or the span of a reign like something like 33 years, so in this cause nothing higher than 200 years. A study of Herodotus may yield how he uses the word in other passages.


It could be so that it is same as generation elsewhere in his 9 books. But it could also be as i have wondered that it could mean other. Compare the other sources i listed 30/33 generations, 42 ages, etc. Compare 5 generations could even match 5 Shamsiadads. Compare that he says like Berosus that Assyrian power was 500 years. So i maintain that his generation / 5/6 generations could be anywhere from 200 to 500 years, which can fit anywhere between Hammurabi/Shamsiaddad 1 (true date ca 1400s) and Shamuramat/Shamsiadad 5 "ca 800 bc" (time of Jonah?). A generation can be 30 years (modern/Genesis 11), 40 years (biblical), 100/110/120 years (Abraham/Egypt/etc).

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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 18:09
I greatly regret I'm not 30 years younger. My passions now instead are not necessarily of research...but are directed elsewhere. But my congrats for the efforts and comments from all concerned; who have posted in this thread.

This is the stuff of what historians are made.

Exchange and analysis. Disagreement and yet civility. Reexamination and the desire to keep looking.

Amen.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2015 at 22:02
I greatly regret I'm not 30 years younger. My passions now instead are not necessarily of research...but are directed elsewhere.


Yeah, me too.   That is why I'm not here most of the time.   It is probably safest to take Herodotus at his context and not try to find some secret "code" for "generation".   Semiramis - 200 years tops down to the fall of Babylon or about 740 BC.   This would coincide with the reign of Esarhaddon of Assyria, which in turn would be short another 70 years to the time of Shammuramat, the Assyrian queen.
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  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2019 at 07:01

Just looking at this again due to a recent National Geographic post/article ( https://www.nationalgeographic.com/archaeology-and-history/magazine/2017/09-10/searching-for-semiramis-assyrian-legend/ ). (Their post was yesterday in facebook but article it was linked to is apparently from 2017.)

Was "queen" Semiramis the late Assyrian queen Shammuramat (wife of Shamsiadad 5 and mother of Adadnirari 3 around about same time as Jonah), or the earlier Babylonian king Hammurabi, or were there 2 different Semiramis' (one early Babylonian one, and one late Assyrian one)?

The reason i still consider Hammurabi as possible candidate as opposed to Shammuramat is because there are some differences between Semiramis and Shammuramat, and some similarities between Semiramis and Hammurabi. On the other hand some things like the 42 years can match the orthodox Shammuramat candidate, and so my Hammurabi match could possibly be wrong. Then again Ctesias' king-list might point to an even earlier possible candidate of Sargon of Akkad's time or Gilgamesh's time. Let us try show the comparisons of Semiramis with Hammurabi and Shammuramat a few at a time.

1. Nation "she" is ruler of:

Semiramis: Babylon/Assyria/Chaldea queen (refs include Herodotus, Josephus).

Hammurabi: Babylonian king.

Shammuramat: Assyrian queen not Babylon (though Assyrian empire included Babylon at the time).

2. Name (and meaning):

Semiramis I/II of Babylon/Assyria:
name Semiramis/Shamiram/S(h)ammu-ramat
(meaning summat "dove (goddess loves her)", or "loving doves", or shem "name/renown/fame/heard" or shem "heaven", + aram/ram "exalted/high", or  shemiramoth "images/things of Shemiram", or "manifestation of the exalted", or "Semiramis goddesses"?).

Hammurabi of Babylon:
name Hammu-rabi / Hamonurabi / Chammu-rabi / Khammu-ragas / Kimta-rapashti / 'Ammu-rapi
(meaning khammu/khamu/khamala "(white) lotus/plant (of the deep)" or "a god Hammu" or 'ammu "paternal kinsman", + raba/rabi "great" or rapi "healer"? Refs Sayce, Waddell, Alford, Wiki)
There are known s/sh/h, s(h)/k(h) and m/g/b interchanges within/between languages of the region.
He is seen with the sun god Shamash/Samas/San(si) or Utu in his law code stele picture.
His predecessor's name is Sinmuballit.

Shammuramat of Assyria: name S(h)ammu-ramat.

3. Exact length of reign:

Semiramis I/II of Babylon/Assyria reigned 42 years. 32nd yr of Belochus. Bel reigned 55 yrs.

Hammurabi of Babylon reigned 42/43 or 55 years (refs AH Sayce, Ivar Lissner, Hoeh). Borsippa inscription says ancient king built Borsippa ziggurat 42 ages before Nebuchadnezzr 2, which may match with Hammurabi as the 1st great king of the Babylonian king list (excluding the half dozen patriarchal kings of the 1st half of the 1st dynasty).
"In year 32 of Hammurabi he and his allies defeated Assyria and annexed it to his
expanding realm! It was exactly 50 years between Hammurabi's victory
and Assyria's return to power." (The similar-name queen Homai in Persian legend king list reigned 32 years.)

Shammuramat: reigned "5 years". Husband Shamsiadad 13 yrs + son Adadnirari 28 yrs = 41 yrs.

4. Gender:

Semiramis: gender woman/queen, described as "king", "wore a garment that did not show whether she was man or woman".

Hammurabi: gender: was 'en' "lord" and 'lugal' "king, great-man". Wearing a toga like robe in his stele which makes him look abit female like. "darling of the sun god". Associated with the lotus which may be feminine (ref Waddell).

Shammuramat of Assyria: gender female queen.



Edited by Arthur-Robin - 24-Mar-2019 at 07:14
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