Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)
guns in the US |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1234> |
| Author |
 Share Topic Printable Version Google Delicious Digg StumbleUpon Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks reddit Facebook MySpace Newsvine Furl Topic Search  Topic Options
|
|||
Tobodai 
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: guns in the USPosted: 24-May-2005 at 23:04 |
|||
Of course America is just a nation. Because I was born there doesnt tie me to it. I am a total individualist. I do what I do to make life better for me and mine, everything else be damned. Therefore I must flee north and get away from thesse border states. Back to the good old north which coupled with California is resposible for 80% of the countries economy, The Northeast would be better of its own state. All the money we spend that is sent to southern states that cant ballance their budget, and in return we get pretty much nothing. The rest of the country has nothingto offer us but extremist politicians who want to regulate our personal lives. And if the northeast pulled out the uS economy would totally collapse as all the important economic centers are in New York! |
||||
|
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
||||
 |
||||
|
Kentuckian
Samurai 
Joined: 16-May-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 115 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 01:26 |
|||
move to some other country then if you don't like it here, lord. |
||||
|
"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones
"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt "This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 10:33 |
|||
Besides of the harsh language, Tobodai has a point. Most of the states that voted for Bush receive more federal money than they pay in taxes. They are, in fact, welfare states. The difference is being paid by Kerry voters living in blue states. And it is true also that Bush-voting states are electing people that ally themselves with the extreme right, which is focused on regulating our behavior through laws. They want to censor television, take away women's rights, and push their nutty theocratic beliefs into our laws with pseudochristian-cleric judges. As far as I can see, what the theoconservatives want is not the American tradition. In fact, it is the most anti-American political movement that we have seen in recent years. The johnny-come-lately theocratic extremists are inventing a past that never existed to push forward their fascist agenda. Theocrats should take their bags and leave our beautiful country. I advise them to move to Iran, where another group of religious zelouts successfully took over a nation and imposed their regressive "religious" laws. They will be among peers and feel at home. |
||||
|
||||
|
eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 14:50 |
|||
|
s far as I can see, what the theoconservatives want is not the American tradition. In fact, it is the most anti-American political movement that we have seen in recent years. The johnny-come-lately theocratic extremists are inventing a past that never existed to push forward their fascist agenda.
Theocrats should take their bags and leave our beautiful country. I advise them to move to Iran, where another group of religious zelouts successfully took over a nation and imposed their regressive "religious" laws. They will be among peers and feel at home. Taurus excreta!!! give me time I will get back to you- by the way all extreme liberals should move to China. |
||||
|
||||
|
Guests
Guest 
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:02 |
|||
what does China have to do with liberalism (though their economy is becoming neo-liberal, but I don't think you were referring to that) |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:48 |
|||
Would you mind elaborating why my post is "Taurus excreta"? In case you missed my point, I was trying to show how ridiculous and offensive it is when right-wing people ask for people with whom they disagree to leave the country. |
||||
|
||||
|
Tobodai
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:55 |
|||
|
lol You know youve won the argument when an American says with a hurt spoiled child expression (well you should just leave!). Im not the one whose lame, and my tax money funds this country, so Im not the one who should leave! This country was founded by libertarians and if we must evacuate people based on ideology than only libertarians should be allowed to stay. Liberals can go to France or Sweden and conservatives can go to Pakistan/Saudi Arabia/Iran. But if you evacuate one group u have to evacuate the other. I dont want to be stuck with a ton of either liberals or conservatives in the end. |
||||
|
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
||||
|
||||
|
Kentuckian
Samurai
Joined: 16-May-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 115 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 18:10 |
|||
someone saying "you should leave" does not mean you've won the argument...not by a long shot. some people are way too far out on the left wing to understand America, and yes some people are way too far on the right wing to care about America. But America is an ideal, not just a country, and I hate it when people get the hippy mentality and say "who cares about America". I think it's been too many generations since the revolution or something for the short-memoried northerners. (and i don't want to hear it about the the Civil War, the southerners in that went in to hold up what they believed was the ideal even if they were wrong at least they cared unlike some people) Edited by Kentuckian |
||||
|
"I have not yet begun to fight." - John Paul Jones
"America will win through absolute victory" - President Franklin Roosevelt "This was our finest hour." - Winston Churchill |
||||
|
||||
|
Tobodai
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 22:58 |
|||
|
if America is an ideal the south is the most agaisnt that ideal of anyone. The ideal of America is no longer alive but it is because of people like you. America was effectively a creation of humanistic thought in the French and English tradition. Our revolution was about two things: 1. Freedom from excessive taxation, especially to fund an empire we didnt feel connected with 2. Individual indipendance Individual independace is a concept hated by the south. If they had their way the government could order peoples social lives around. Also remeber our revolution was started by anti-governmetn radicals (like myself) and was centered in Boston, the loyalists where centeres in teh south. Freedom from government, against taxation, for individual liberties, these describe my ideology perfectly, yours however is quite different which is ironic as you at least support the right to bear arms. The reason states like Vermont and New Hampshire are so succesful and have less problems that anyone else is because they adhere to this ideology. \ Also loyalty to the ideals of the revolution does not mean loyalty to America of today. The America of today is far more oppresive, tax friendly, and wicked than the British even where to the colonists. Being loyal to the America in ideal is in fact totaly adverse to the America of today. And it has been the free thinking multiethnic, idustrious and capitalistic achievment of the north that has made it that way. The same states that led the rebellion against British rule and have born most of our great inventors still have that culture of moving to the future, challenging authority, and making big bucks. Indeed the entire constitution of the Unisted States was pretty much copied from Rhode Island, the state that first burnt a British warship in protest. |
||||
|
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
||||
|
||||
|
eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-May-2005 at 23:25 |
|||
I never do, and we need all points of view to keep a balance- ying and yang I would not want the country to be 100% conservative or the other way around but I strong believe in people fighting for what they believe is right. I see what your point is now so sorry I was quick to misunderstand. I thought you were going to the other extreme and while I am not religious I hold many conservative values and some liberal. best to get back to my studies-finals coming soon!! |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-May-2005 at 09:32 |
|||
Kentuckian, I agree with your statement that extremists in the U.S. don't get America. Today the most dangerous of that kind are the extremists pseudo-Christian right. They are focused on taking over the country to establish their fascist beliefs. Not only that, they have been quite successful at power grabbing. If you don't believe me, look at the tantrum that Dr. James Dobson from Focus on the Family threw when moderate Senators came to a bipartisan agreement. Dobson was angry at Senate majority leader Bill Frist because now Dobson will have to wait to install his extremists conservative cleric-judges for a litle bit longer. However, I am going along with your attempt to change the topic of conversation. You told Tobodai to leave the country after he stated that he wanted to go live in the North, that the North and California are main engines of the U.S. economy, and that the South gets more tax money that they contribute to. Here, lets have a flashback:
Maybe you didn't have time to elaborate, so you just told Tobodai, who is a libertarian, to leave the country. But I am sure that you can find some time to respond to his claims now: Give a valid counter-argument to the fact that the South receives more tax-money than what it sends to Washington. Give a valid counter-argument to the fact that California and the North are the most important centers of the economy. Give a vaild counter-argument to the fact that most extremist Christian congressmen come from the South, and the midlands. |
||||
|
||||
|
JanusRook
Sultan 
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:47 |
|||
|
So you don't like the fact that you have a near limitless supply of cannon fodder, so you don't have to get hurt defending your ideas.
Actually, if that occured the economy would scarcely collapse it would take a few months to restabilize as industries would move into niches left open. Besides there are many major economic centers outside of NYC, Chicago, Atlanta, etc.
You seem to confuse revolutionary ideas with American Tradition, American Tradition was founded in the early 20th Century with WWI and WWII when the US decided to shift from an insular perspective to a global one. American Tradition became codified in the New Deal Era of FDR, which was radically different from the Libertarian views expressed by the founding fathers. The founding fathers wanted gov't formed like greek city-states, which is impossible outside of New England because of the sheer bulk of territory and numbers, FDR's socialist perspective determined that the wealthy should sacrifice to help the poor, (Tennessee Valley Authority, Meatless Tuesdays?, Rationing, etc.) which is part of american tradition.
It couldn't be the lower populations or the higher per capita income or the class of people that live there could it. How many major industries existed there for poor immigrants to arrive to make their way in life. |
||||
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
||||
|
||||
|
JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-May-2005 at 22:57 |
|||
|
I know this isn't mine but I want to tackle it anyway. Because I'm evil....
Because the United States isn't a Confederacy, its a Federation. Which means that all states work together for a common goal. The south makes up for the fact in it has obscene future growth potential, sometime in the future the economies of the east coast will become to clunky to operate effectively and the will go to virgin territory to get some breathing space, especially since the US mindset wants to stay away from companies exporting their industries to less developed countries. Actually I didn't give a counter arguement to that statement, but an excuse....oh well.....
Can I have a source for this, or are you basing this off of common conceptions of California and the "North"? Do you mean North East or are you including the Midwest in that as well?
How is an extremist Christian worse than an extremist Anti-Christian? |
||||
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-May-2005 at 23:51 |
|||
You seem to confuse revolutionary ideas with American Tradition, American Tradition was founded in the early 20th Century with WWI and WWII when the US decided to shift from an insular perspective to a global one. American Tradition became codified in the New Deal Era of FDR, which was radically different from the Libertarian views expressed by the founding fathers. The founding fathers wanted gov't formed like greek city-states, which is impossible outside of New England because of the sheer bulk of territory and numbers, FDR's socialist perspective determined that the wealthy should sacrifice to help the poor, (Tennessee Valley Authority, Meatless Tuesdays?, Rationing, etc.) which is part of american tradition. I was using the term "American tradition" in a generic way. To me it is equivalent to "America's past," "America's history," or more exactly, "America's historical political ideas, values, and practice." It seems that what you call "American Tradition" is something completely different. From your description, it sounds like a technical term to refer to the historic political and cultural ideas created in the first half of the 20th century. Since were are not talking about the same thing, the main of your argument doesn't apply to my statement, especially since you didn't disagree with my point. I do want to add a couple of comments about your post. FDR was a pragmatic capitalist who did whatever was needed to take the country out of the Depression. Not only did he succeeded, but his main legacy was the prosperity and security that the nation has enjoyed ever since. As such, he belongs to the same intellectual tradition of the Founding Fathers. The key word here is "pragmatism." You are correct that most of them wanted state-nations. Yet, when they saw the economic and political chaos that the Articles of Confederation brought to the new nation, the leading minority came together and drafted a new federalist constitution, which ran against some key libertarian values of the Spirit of 76. Both the U.S. Founder Fathers and Roosevelt understood that the welfare and survival of the United States and its dearests principals were worth adopting practical solutions. Each had to face a different historical challanges, each used different methods, but the end result was a freer and safer U.S. |
||||
|
||||
|
JanusRook
Sultan
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2419 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:00 |
|||
|
Actually you said that one, |
||||
|
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.
Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2005 at 00:58 |
|||
Thanks agreeing that the North and California supports the rest of the country. I agree with you: we, everyone in America, are in this thing together, and if for whatever reason one is in a bad position, the rest should lend a hand and help. As long as Conservatives from the South and the Mainlands agree with your and my statements, I have no problem with this state of affairs. I know that California represents something like 30% of the nation's economy. New York must represent another big chunk because of it being the finacial center of the world. By deduction, one can tell that most of the economy is concentrated in these two centers. The above are aproximations, so I will go and get a reliable source later 
Once again, you seem to agree with me, this time tacitly, that the South and Midlands do produce a high amount of extremist pseudo-Christian congressmen. The reason why they are more dangerous is simple: they are in Congress.The Senate has Sanctorum, Brownback, Allen, and Frist. The House has DeLay, Wolf, and many other nutballs that I have not been able to remember their names. These religious extremists want laws that make the government tell us how to educate our children and what medical treatments we can get. The guidelines for these laws are based on their unique take on Christianity. I don't want a cleric telling me what I can teach to my children and what treatment I can have. This is what makes them dangerous. |
||||
|
||||
|
hugoestr
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 13-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3987 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2005 at 01:01 |
|||
I really don't get what is your point 
Did I use the term, "American tradition"? Yes, of course. Did I used it the way you interpreted. No, I didn't. I forgot to say this in my last post: I alway enjoy discussing with you. You get the discussing game, and I admire you for that
|
||||
|
||||
|
Genghis
Caliph 
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2656 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 27-May-2005 at 21:41 |
|||
|
I was looking at aggregate violent crime, I'll take your word on the murder rate thing, but it seems you're more likely to get killed in the south but less likely to be the victim of any other violent crime
|
||||
|
Member of IAEA
|
||||
|
||||
|
Tobodai
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-May-2005 at 00:51 |
|||
|
I think it depends on gender, I have a friend from the south who testifies domestic abuse is not only endemic, its socially acceptable. Heres a fun peice of evidence for the gun debate: http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/books/05/11/freakonomics.ap/ I love this economist, he just studies with numbers not ideology. A child is 100 times more likely to die in a house with a pool than a gun rack. Dpeas anyone talk about banning pools? come on. He also links the legalizing of abortion to lower crime rates. I love it! Its about time someone just lokoed at the numbers. |
||||
|
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
||||
|
||||
|
Tobodai
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Antarctica Online Status: Offline Posts: 4310 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-May-2005 at 01:01 |
|||
|
Janus: The south's only use may be to provide cannon fodder, but this argument wont work against me. Those soldiers are not defending my ideals in te slightest, they are actually working against them most of the time. Ideologically they are my enemy just as Al Qaida is, so I feel no debt of gratitude. And yes Americas major economic centers could change, but from the historical examples we have it is always a long term and wrenching change. Rapid industrialization leaves massive scars and there are a few nations who had to geographically restructure their economy and their histories do not make it as easy as you make it sound. And if your logic about socioeconomic class effecting crime rates was true then New York would ahve the highest crime rate in the nation, it does not, not by a long shot. I have dwelled in both New York and one of Americas top 5 crime cities (not saying which) and I can tell you comparitevely New York is as safe as you can get. Vermont and New Hampshire are also not as rural as popualraly potrayed, New Hampshire actually has alot of urban sprall and density, and yet its still the most libertarian and successful state in the country. And I dont expect you to appreciate the dangers of theocrats, as I bet you personally are a believer in regulating peoples behavior based on your own principals, and its for precisely that reason such people in government are dangerous. To regulate someoens behavior is the most evil thing a government can do, and I dedicate myself to either destroying these people in America or moving someplace where they do not exist. |
||||
|
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
||||
|
||||
/TR|
Post Reply
|
Page <1234> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz
This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.
