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Survival of Zoroastrianism

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  Quote Aeoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Survival of Zoroastrianism
    Posted: 30-Oct-2016 at 09:45
Originally posted by renaissance232

Hopefully one day we can see these cultures take a more prominent role in their regions and gain some higher autonomy. Perhaps even restore them to something a bit closer to what they were.

Do you really believe Autonmy or independence can save them? You are living in North America but suggest 19yy natoinalist European country model?

Cyprus-Bosnia-Lebanon are good examples to why this won't work.


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  Quote renaissance232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2016 at 05:30
3 Things to keep in mind.
Islam is to Iran like Christianity is to Norway. They adopted it, or were conquered, but they DIDNT help invent it, only "improved" it, as I like to say. Iranian architecture is NOT Muslim, but is still related closely with other Islamic architectural styles simply because these were influenced by Iranian architecture and vise versa.

IE Languages originated in Central Asia. It is thought that this is the ancestral home of all Indo-Iranians from Kurdistan to Bangladesh. The language family, (closely linked genetically as well, so this solves that question) migrated south and inhabited the regions previously inhabited by Mesopotamians, notably Elamites, or Dravidians(?) of Indus valley. I am not sure of the genetic or linguistic heritage of the Mesopotamian peoples, nor am I certain of the Indus Valley civilization either, but I assume they are closely related to the Pre Indo-Iranian tribes and are related to the original peoples of India, the Dravidians. Indo-Iranians, many people from Kurdistan to Bangladesh are still the original people, for the most part, as most people still remain who they are after they are conquered. It is nearly impossible to remove a race or ethnicity from a region, and even then they will most likely migrate, and this did not happen in Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan. Rather, they were able to gain independence, while retaining Islam, and reconquer previously lost lands. The Samanids, and later the Safavids, were responsible for retaining some, if not most of this original "Perso-Iranian" culture.

Take a look at a Mosque from Iran and then one from Saudi Arabia and notice the stark differences (At least from the ones I've been able to find). When IEs entered the Iranian Plateau they adopted a lot of Mesopotamian cultural influences, i.e. mosaics and tiling, geometry, rounded turrets, and minarets. This was not found in Arabia, so we can notice the original Perso-Mesopotamian cultural influence.
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  Quote renaissance232 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2016 at 05:07
I am a Zoroastrian (In North America but with Persian Ancestry) and honestly it is kind of sad to see such my cultural heritage hanging by a string. However, I am also aware of the worlds many other cultures that are in a similar position. The Ainu, the Saami, the Berbers, the Assyrians, Coptic Egyptians, Khmers, even Irish to a degree. They exist, as Persia (Iran) does, they are still ethnically, linguistically, and culturally similar to their ancestors but there's often many attributes to the beauty of these original cultures that is lost due to conquest, colonization, or marginalization. Hopefully one day we can see these cultures take a more prominent role in their regions and gain some higher autonomy. Perhaps even restore them to something a bit closer to what they were.

Edited by renaissance232 - 30-Oct-2016 at 05:07
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  Quote Scholar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2016 at 10:20
By blood? You realise that is a primitive European concept of Race/ancestry, and another false social construct. Indian is a nationality, which is home to over 3000+ ethnic groups, some who are pure descendants of "Indo-Iranians" some who are direct descendants of the Harappan people, and some who are descendant of the first people out of Africa. At no point in Indian history was the Indic language family imposed, in fact to the contrary it was adopted and modified. Samskrutam (Sanskrit) was a very popular language for scholarship which spread all over the academic community of ancient Bharatvarsha (India). It was the Vernacular forms that people formed called Prakrut (Prakrit). People modified them and mixed them to their liking. Languages like Malayalam borrow heavily from classical Sanskrit and Sangham Tamil, Gujarati on the other hand borrows from old dramatic languages Sanskrit and languages it interacts, whereas Koshur (Kashmiri) shows elements of the Proto-Rigvedic language, Sanskrit and its own creation, but when spoken by Muslims Koshur borrows heavily from Arabic and Persian. India has more linguistic, ethnic and other kinds of diversity than is understandable and to make any generalizations is absurd. Also Most Americans are of European descent and thus are "pure" descendants of the theoretical PIE peoples. Also in linguistics when one speaks their native language they are considered part of the language family irrespective of their racial categorization. Also the CIA world factbook lists Indo-Aryan (72%) as India's dominant ethno-linguistic group thus contradicting your claim of a non Indo-European majority population in India. Remember India has many sunny regions where the skin of even white men become very dark. Look at Rajasthan and you'll see that many people have green and light eyes in many regions but are brown to black in skin. Skin changes to environment and is irrelevant to race as it was a concept constructed on skull shape not skin tone. 
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2013 at 08:39
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by yomud

Originally posted by Ollios

I think the current hate is not because of mediveal events or religion. Many Sunni Arab countries support USA also many of them supported Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War.


if so than why they hate the turks ??

The question is not about Turks, it is about Sunni Arabs

in Turks case, there are two minor situation

Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan: These countries are like Ukraine and Georgia for Russia; Back garden and now they are slipping from Iran's hands. With Turkish factor, they started to watch policies which are close to America. They want to rule-control them

Turkey: again about politics. Before the crisis in Syria(Turkey and Iran support different sides), Iranian tourists are in top 5, in Turkey, so there is no real hate and I think those people are just Azeris in Iran


yes u right Smile u explain it better
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2013 at 07:02
Originally posted by yomud

Originally posted by Ollios

I think the current hate is not because of mediveal events or religion. Many Sunni Arab countries support USA also many of them supported Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War.


if so than why they hate the turks ??

The question is not about Turks, it is about Sunni Arabs

in Turks case, there are two minor situation

Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan: These countries are like Ukraine and Georgia for Russia; Back garden and now they are slipping from Iran's hands. With Turkish factor, they started to watch policies which are close to America. They want to rule-control them

Turkey: again about politics. Before the crisis in Syria(Turkey and Iran support different sides), Iranian tourists are in top 5, in Turkey, so there is no real hate and I think those people are just Azeris in Iran


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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2013 at 14:29
im not talking about those eras im talking about qajar time in that era all who wasn't shia have to pay Jizya that start rebellion and  Separate turkmens from rest of iran
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2013 at 14:15
Originally posted by yomud

heavy religious tax the Jizya also were taken from turkmens cuz we was sunni muslem and also from iranian jews and armenian/gorgians who live in iran   . all who wasn't shia muslem has to pay that it wasn't just Zoroastrianteh the only differences between them and us was this we have courage to make rebellion 

You had the courage to make rebellion???  If I'm not mistaken the pre-Islamic religion of Turkmenistan was Zoroastrianism, and before that a Turkik religion.  The Turkmen like the Iranians and the Europeans got totally dominated by Semitic religions: Islam and Christianity.  The only living pre-Christian pre-Islamic Aryan religion still alive today is Zoroastrianism, though Greek religion is taught as a literature in the West.  
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2013 at 12:09
Originally posted by Ollios

I think the current hate is not because of mediveal events or religion. Many Sunni Arab countries support USA also many of them supported Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War.


if so than why they hate the turks ??
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  Quote yomud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2013 at 12:07
heavy religious tax the Jizya also were taken from turkmens cuz we was sunni muslem and also from iranian jews and armenian/gorgians who live in iran   . all who wasn't shia muslem has to pay that it wasn't just Zoroastrianteh the only differences between them and us was this we have courage to make rebellion 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2013 at 05:36
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by Nick1986

Is the Islamic conquest of Persia the reason why modern Iranians hate the Sunni Arabs?

The way I understood it was that Sunni Islam is orthodox Islam, and Shia Islam was a syncretic Aryan-Islam tracing authority to Ali and Persian lineage.  But if I'm not mistaken the 6 canonical hadiths were also written by Persians.  So it would seem to me to be a conflict within Islam and not Aryan vs. Muslim.    

I got what I think may be a good analogy to your question: Is the Christianization of Aryan (I.E) - Europe the reason why modern Europeans hate the Christians? 


Actually, modern Europeans are becoming increasingly indifferent about Christianity. It's no hate but indifference, due to many factors such as 1) rise of science 2) globalization and 3) transformation of society after WW2, together with the establishment of the European Union....
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2013 at 05:35
I think the current hate is not because of mediveal events or religion. Many Sunni Arab countries support USA also many of them supported Saddam during the Iraq-Iran War.


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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2013 at 20:52
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by Nick1986

Is the Islamic conquest of Persia the reason why modern Iranians hate the Sunni Arabs?

The way I understood it was that Sunni Islam is orthodox Islam, and Shia Islam was a syncretic Aryan-Islam tracing authority to Ali and Persian lineage.  But if I'm not mistaken the 6 canonical hadiths were also written by Persians.  So it would seem to me to be a conflict within Islam and not Aryan vs. Muslim.    

I got what I think may be a good analogy to your question: Is the Christianization of Aryan (I.E) - Europe the reason why modern Europeans hate the Christians? 
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2013 at 20:33
correction: The way I understood it was that Sunni Islam is orthodox Islam, and Shia Islam was a syncretic Aryan-Islam tracing authority to Ali and Persian lineage.  But if I'm not mistaken the 6 canonical Sunni hadiths were also written by Persians.  So it would seem to me to be a conflict within Islam and not Aryan vs. Muslim.    

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2013 at 20:32
Originally posted by Nick1986

Is the Islamic conquest of Persia the reason why modern Iranians hate the Sunni Arabs?

The way I understood it was that Sunni Islam is orthodox Islam, and Shia Islam was a syncretic Aryan-Islam tracing authority to Ali and Persian lineage.  But if I'm not mistaken the 6 canonical hadiths were also written by Persians.  So it would seem to me to be a conflict within Islam and not Aryan vs. Muslim.    
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2013 at 11:06
Is the Islamic conquest of Persia the reason why modern Iranians hate the Sunni Arabs?
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2013 at 11:49
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Indo-Europeans make what? Half of the world? 1 billion at best...

There is no such thing as "genuine" in genetics, since interbreeding is inevitable, unless there is a population that's totally isolated on some remote island in the ocean...

Where are you getting your numbers?  Wikipedia says 3 billion and that's just native speakers.  

I would estimate that almost 80% of the United States is Indo-European and a good portion of Canada. South America is another story, but there are a lot Indo-Europeans by national ancestry there too.  Anyway Aryan (IE.) culture is thriving.  There are a huge number of Chinese people that speak English as a second language.  Going back to my earlier question though what is a genuine Iranian?  Is he a Zoroastrian by religion or a Muslim by religion?  What is an Aryan (IE.)?  Does he worship Zeus or Ahura Mazda or does he worship Moses, Jesus, Mohammad?



IE culture is one thing, IE ancestry is quite another. 80% of the US is non Black/Asian/native American in your opinion? Even that does not prove anything because not all whites are Indo-Europeans either.Confused

When the IE people spreaded into Europe, they found local populations so it is wrong to suggest that white = Indo-European.

Anyway, IE languages and culture are dominant, I give you that! 

Going back to your earlier question, a genuine Iranian is something that cannot exist. The Iranians are a far too diverse people... Islam is originally an Arabic religion, so I don't consider it Iranian at all.  Regarding the Aryans or IE people, connecting them with a religion is not right anymore. Atheism is growing within IE populations so religion is not the key element.

To me, IE or "Aryans" are those who speak any IE language and are genetically close to PIE populations, meaning they carry IE genes. Basically, the PIE populations lived around the Pontic steppes and Caucasus, so I 'd call them Caucasoids.


The last statistic I saw claimed the U.S. is exactly 77% white.  The Mexicans make up about 10%, the blacks make up about 10%.  The number may be less now, but that was just an approximation.  

I agree that their is no such thing as a pure Iranian, Aryan, or pure anything.  But you said it yourself Islam, orthodox Islam anyway is a non-Iranian cultural element.  I think that the Zoroastrian Iranians are both Iranian by language and religion.  Yet, I'm also under the impression that 1. the Islam practiced in Iran is a syncretic Islam fused with elements of Zoroastrianism or at least Iranian nationalism 2. educated Iranians (and even laymen) understand that they are connected to a pre-Islamic Zoroastrian past.  Both the orthodox Muslims, and the neo-traditionalist Zoroastrians, by not accepting to recognize even Iranian converts as true Zoroastrians, are destroying the Aryan (Irano-Afghan) heritage.  

I think anyone who speaks an Aryan language is a cultured Aryan in this respect.  But I agree that there are Aryans by national ancestry, though I think bringing genetics into the fold may be too rigid.  In regards to religious cultural heritage the Aryans in Europe as well as in Greater Iran are dead or dying out, and its people like the Zoroastrians which are our last link to the pre-Abrahamic Aryan past.  I also agree that more and more Indo-Europeans are turning to atheism, and that religion is becoming less and less an identifier of cultural heritage, but I still think there is sort of a betrayal to the Aryan cultural identity taking place when people self-designate themselves "Aryan" but subscribe to non-Aryan religious heritages even if they don't practice religion.  
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2013 at 06:19
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Hasn't the Aryan (IE.) culture been on the decline ever since the introduction of Christianity in Europe and Islam in the Irano-Afghan zone?  


Besides religion, I don't see any decline in IE culture, to be honest. On the contrary, IE languages have been spreading constantly since the beginning...
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2013 at 06:17
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Indo-Europeans make what? Half of the world? 1 billion at best...

There is no such thing as "genuine" in genetics, since interbreeding is inevitable, unless there is a population that's totally isolated on some remote island in the ocean...

Where are you getting your numbers?  Wikipedia says 3 billion and that's just native speakers.  

I would estimate that almost 80% of the United States is Indo-European and a good portion of Canada. South America is another story, but there are a lot Indo-Europeans by national ancestry there too.  Anyway Aryan (IE.) culture is thriving.  There are a huge number of Chinese people that speak English as a second language.  Going back to my earlier question though what is a genuine Iranian?  Is he a Zoroastrian by religion or a Muslim by religion?  What is an Aryan (IE.)?  Does he worship Zeus or Ahura Mazda or does he worship Moses, Jesus, Mohammad?



IE culture is one thing, IE ancestry is quite another. 80% of the US is non Black/Asian/native American in your opinion? Even that does not prove anything because not all whites are Indo-Europeans either.Confused

When the IE people spreaded into Europe, they found local populations so it is wrong to suggest that white = Indo-European.

Anyway, IE languages and culture are dominant, I give you that! 

Going back to your earlier question, a genuine Iranian is something that cannot exist. The Iranians are a far too diverse people... Islam is originally an Arabic religion, so I don't consider it Iranian at all.  Regarding the Aryans or IE people, connecting them with a religion is not right anymore. Atheism is growing within IE populations so religion is not the key element.

To me, IE or "Aryans" are those who speak any IE language and are genetically close to PIE populations, meaning they carry IE genes. Basically, the PIE populations lived around the Pontic steppes and Caucasus, so I 'd call them Caucasoids.

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2013 at 21:23
Hasn't the Aryan (IE.) culture been on the decline ever since the introduction of Christianity in Europe and Islam in the Irano-Afghan zone?  
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