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Vikings (Al-Majus) and Iranians

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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vikings (Al-Majus) and Iranians
    Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 17:53
Originally posted by mojobadshah



I think his point was that at one time the Hittites and Troy were thought to be fictional, but now we have evidence to prove that they were real.

yeap, we were sure the existence of Hittites very late. We just knew their name in other sources like Atlantis Big smile. Central Anatolia was not very popular excavation area in early scientific archeology period. 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2013 at 05:13
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Ah... ok, so the idea of a great battle between opposites appears in other IE. literature too.  So why exactly do scholars think the Iranian's influenced Nordic apocalyptic literature?  Is it purely based on the idea of a great winter beforehand?

And I was told by formers on wordreference.com that there is no connection between the names Yuletide and Yalda?  Were you implying this?  Or are you merely saying that the celebrations themselves have resemblances?
 
As you read they talk about a common origin, not any influence, those things, like "Great Winter" and "Binding the archdemon", show that Iranian and Norse cultures have more things in common.
 
About the words Yalda and Yuletide, some people who don't know about the ancient Iranian and Germanic cultures, try to relate them to Christmas and find a Semitic origin for it, it can be possible about Germans but I don't know why Zoroastrians should choose a Christian-related name for their greatest festival!
 
Of course we know there was no "L" sound in the Avestan and Old Persian languages, so the original word had probably "R" sound instead of "L", according to my Persian source, the original Iranian name of Yalda was "Yaretag", it can be compared to modern Persian word "Farda" (tomorrow) from Middle Persian "Faretag" (Fare=Fore + Tag=daylight), therefore it is said "Yaretag" (Yare=Year + Tag=daylight) meant "first light of the year", maybe for this reason after Yalda, the persian month of "day" begins.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2013 at 05:41
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_


This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

Don't be so stick, you can be broke Big smile

Wasn't Hittites just a biblical Mtyh? Wasn't Troy a Greek tale? 

There is certain connection between Azerbaijan and Vikings 

Yes origin is a lot big thing to claim easily, but it shouldn't stop us to search. 



The Hittites are known from historical records, so they are not a myth. Their own inscriptions that date back to 1600 BC, have survived to tell us who they were... Troy was also discovered in Turkey, and it is most likely the city described by Homer.

Regarding connections, ancestry is one thing and contact quite another. I can find connections between Romans and Indians as well, so what?LOL

I think his point was that at one time the Hittites and Troy were thought to be fictional, but now we have evidence to prove that they were real.

You can find connections between all cultures, but there is a method that determines whether these connections descended from a common ancestor or whether they were borrowed.  I presume that scholars believe that the Nordic apocalyptic literature borrowed from Zoroastrian literature because the motif in question can only be found in Nordic and Iranian literature, not all Indo-European literature, hence the borrowing occurred after the Proto-Indo-European split.  

I just happened to come across a source that is now claiming DNA evidence of a link between the Vikings and Iranians.  DNA evidence is pretty conclusive if you ask me.  

Like I said I have even done some research into Viking and Iranian DNA and this is what I found:

Haplogroups I and X are each found in only 1&#37; of the modern European population. Haplogroup I has been found in over 10% of the bodies in tested from Viking cemeteries. - http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25039-Vikings-had-rare-mtDNA-haplogroups

Haplogroup I is a descendant (subclade) of haplogroup N1e'I (Behar 2012b) and sibling of haplogroup N1e (Behar 2012b). It is believed to have arisen somewhere in Eurasia between 17,263 and 24,451 years before present (Behar 2012b). It has been suggested that its origin may be in northern Iran or in Europe towards the Carpathian Mountain region where its highest frequency is found (Terreros 2011). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(mtDNA)

When haplogroup made their way out of Iran is another question.  Could it have been after the PIE split? And after the Nordic people borrowed apocalyptic ideas from the Zoroastrians?  I don't know, but it does appear pretty conclusive that the Iranians and Vikings share the same DNA.  


They share SOME elements of DNA. Guess what, the same applies to... Romans & Greeks, Persians and Greeks etc. I still fail to see convincing evidence that demonstrates a strong connection.

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2013 at 21:04
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_


This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

Don't be so stick, you can be broke Big smile

Wasn't Hittites just a biblical Mtyh? Wasn't Troy a Greek tale? 

There is certain connection between Azerbaijan and Vikings 

Yes origin is a lot big thing to claim easily, but it shouldn't stop us to search. 



The Hittites are known from historical records, so they are not a myth. Their own inscriptions that date back to 1600 BC, have survived to tell us who they were... Troy was also discovered in Turkey, and it is most likely the city described by Homer.

Regarding connections, ancestry is one thing and contact quite another. I can find connections between Romans and Indians as well, so what?LOL

I think his point was that at one time the Hittites and Troy were thought to be fictional, but now we have evidence to prove that they were real.

You can find connections between all cultures, but there is a method that determines whether these connections descended from a common ancestor or whether they were borrowed.  I presume that scholars believe that the Nordic apocalyptic literature borrowed from Zoroastrian literature because the motif in question can only be found in Nordic and Iranian literature, not all Indo-European literature, hence the borrowing occurred after the Proto-Indo-European split.  

I just happened to come across a source that is now claiming DNA evidence of a link between the Vikings and Iranians.  DNA evidence is pretty conclusive if you ask me.  

Like I said I have even done some research into Viking and Iranian DNA and this is what I found:

Haplogroups I and X are each found in only 1&#37; of the modern European population. Haplogroup I has been found in over 10% of the bodies in tested from Viking cemeteries. - http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25039-Vikings-had-rare-mtDNA-haplogroups

Haplogroup I is a descendant (subclade) of haplogroup N1e'I (Behar 2012b) and sibling of haplogroup N1e (Behar 2012b). It is believed to have arisen somewhere in Eurasia between 17,263 and 24,451 years before present (Behar 2012b). It has been suggested that its origin may be in northern Iran or in Europe towards the Carpathian Mountain region where its highest frequency is found (Terreros 2011). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(mtDNA)

When haplogroup made their way out of Iran is another question.  Could it have been after the PIE split? And after the Nordic people borrowed apocalyptic ideas from the Zoroastrians?  I don't know, but it does appear pretty conclusive that the Iranians and Vikings share the same DNA.  


They share SOME elements of DNA. Guess what, the same applies to... Romans & Greeks, Persians and Greeks etc. I still fail to see convincing evidence that demonstrates a strong connection.

 
I have to admit that my knowledge on DNA is recent.  It's no surprise that there are parallels between Nordic and Irano-Afghan myth since they both descend from IE. But as I previously mentioned there is indeed a community of scholars who believe that Zoroastrianism had some influence on Nordic mythology though not necessarily the Eddas.   Joseph Campbell briefly mentions this in his Occidental Mythology. 
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  Quote hlewagastir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 00:55
I have little time ATM, but here are some commentaries on the sources and works dished out in the thread so far:

Thor Heyerdahl:
The man operates with theories which was sound scholarly work in the middle ages, sketchy speculations from the mid 19th century, and outright laughable from the mid 20th century... That is in academic circles where people actually study this stuff in depth - which I doubt Heyerdahl did.

About this article:
http://news.az/articles/society/47904

Please notice who are being interviewed... Biased and apparently with as little knowledge of Old Norse literature as his dad.

"
So why do some scientific circles and countries deny the migration of the Vikings from the Caucasus and Azerbaijan?

The thing is that every scientist is a specialist in their own narrow sphere, they have their scientific chair, students, image and scientific degrees. So, if something goes contrary to the scientific world created by the specialist, their influence and wage, they will start opposing an idea and facts that threaten to destroy the ideal life. Every specialist and scientist has gone deeply into their sphere of studies where they have dug a deep hole from which they cannot see anything else. Then along comes someone who views everything not through the prism of "holes" but gathers all the facts accumulated by others into a single concept."

While there is some truth to some researcher being so entrenched that they lack a general overview, this is bordering on conspiracy theory.

Now, back to the claim regarding DNA: It is correct that analyses of a tooth of one of the woman gave good indications that she belonged to haplogroup U7 which in turn indicates an origin in the Near East (up to 4 % spread), Pakistan (up to 5 %), Iran (up to 10 %), or India (up to 12 %).
To confirm the result 4 bonesamples where taken and analysed (because that is how science works, whether Thor Heyerdahl Jr. likes it or not), and those results did not point to any clear-cut haplogroup (!). I other words... We don´t really know where she originated.

Sources:
-http://www.khm.uio.no/tema/utstillingsarkiv/levd-liv/plakater.pdf
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29

Now, what can be deduced from that?
1) She might not even be from Western or Southern Asia... IOW, she might be Norwegian or Slav for all we know.
2) Lets presume that she belongs to haplogroup U7 (fair enough for me): Would it not be more sensible to pick the Byzantine Empire, or mixed parts of the Rus' area where we know that the Vikings (including Norwegian Vikings) had a pretty big presence, and where it would actually make sense to forge political alliances (this gal was high society)?
I would consider that explanation a bit more elegant than a marginal, generally unsupported theory about Vikings from Iran...

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I believe the name of Vikings relates to the name of Wakhi people, according to etymonline website: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=viking&searchmode=none Viking means "one who came from the fjords," from vik "creek, inlet, small bay" (cf. Old English wic, Middle High German wich "bay," and second element in Reykjavik). [Fjords are underwater U-shaped valleys]

(...)

West of the Pamir Knot is the Little Pamir, a broad U-shaped grassy valley (...)
 


While I accept the etymological interpretation you put forward as a valid one - among many - I find the link pretty far fetched...

If I can find something else starting with "V", somewhat being connected to water, in the shape of a "U-shaped valley", will you accept that as a relation as well?


Mythology needs some tidening up too, but it might be a few days before I get around to that.

~hlewagastir


Edited by hlewagastir - 21-Dec-2013 at 01:43
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  Quote hlewagastir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 01:12
There seems to be some general flailing around in terms of the usage of the word "Viking":

Here´s a quick piece I posted on another forum which hopefully helps to clear it up a bit.

"Good post!
I have a few commentaries though:

1) The Vikings were not a tribe.

2) Avoiding the discussion about whether 793 and 1066 are actually good start and endpoints for the Viking Age. Why do you think it was Norwegian Vikings?

3) The Old Scandinavian word víkingr (m) can be translated as 'sea warrior' and from runic evidence it seems to have been used of one who, as part of a group, goes on a (military) overseas expedition (there seems to be a general warrior semantic attached to the word).
The word víking (f) then denotes this 'military, overseas expedition'.

We have no good explanation for the etymology of the word, but here are five possible explanations:
-It might come from Viken (a bay in southern Norway), and thus originally having referred to people from there.
-vik ('bay, inlet') is another possible origin.
-It might come from the Baltic word wic, which in turn comes from Latin vicus meaning ´harbour, trading place'. It´s also found in all the towns ending on wich.
-A less likely possibility is vika which means 'a distance at sea'.
-Lastly there is Old Norse víkja meaning 'to move, walk, travel'.

That was a bit about the word and how it was used by contemporaries.

Now, the OE version wicing(as) was rarely used about the plundering dudes from Scandinavia in Anglo-Latin chronicling. They are usually called Nordmanni/Nortmanni/Normanni, piratae or Dani - or in OE Dene, Norðmenn.
That´s when they aren´t just called pagani or hæðene...
Especially the OE use of Norðmenn has tempted people to identify them as Norwegians.

For this bit I got help from Stefan Brink´s book The Viking World (2012, p. 4-7), and from Dumville´s chapter Vikings in Insular Chronicling in the same book.

4) We should avoid extremes. While Vikings often were Norse farmers, especially in the early Viking age (I would argue that the make-up changes slightly during the Viking age due to professionalization of warriors and expeditions), I think it would be a stretch to assume that most- or even the majority of Norse farmers were Vikings."

(http://historum.com/medieval-byzantine-history/64786-germanic-vikings-3.html)

IOW, Vikings weren´t a tribe or a people, I was more or less a word for an activity, or a profession derived from that activity, which were used in Northern Europe for a few centuries.
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  Quote hlewagastir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Dec-2013 at 07:41
Originally posted by hlewagastir


Now, back to the claim regarding DNA: It is correct that analyses of a tooth of one of the woman gave good indications that she belonged to haplogroup U7 which in turn indicates an origin in the Near East (up to 4 % spread), Pakistan (up to 5 %), Iran (up to 10 %), or India (up to 12 %).
To confirm the result 4 bonesamples where taken and analysed (because that is how science works, whether Thor Heyerdahl Jr. likes it or not), and those results did not point to any clear-cut haplogroup (!). I other words... We don´t really know where she originated.

Sources:
-http://www.khm.uio.no/tema/utstillingsarkiv/levd-liv/plakater.pdf
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_U_%28mtDNA%29

Now, what can be deduced from that?
1) She might not even be from Western or Southern Asia... IOW, she might be Norwegian or Slav for all we know.
2) Lets presume that she belongs to haplogroup U7 (fair enough for me): Would it not be more sensible to pick the Byzantine Empire, or mixed parts of the Rus' area where we know that the Vikings (including Norwegian Vikings) had a pretty big presence, and where it would actually make sense to forge political alliances (this gal was high society)?
I would consider that explanation a bit more elegant than a marginal, generally unsupported theory about Vikings from Iran...


I forgot to add:
3) Even if this woman is from Iran, or Azerbaijan for that matter; one example (from the 9th century!) hardly constitute evidence for any serious Viking-, Iron-, or Bronze age immigration from these places...

Edit: Sorry I did not mention this in the above post - I was kind of tired by then.

Heyerdahl doesn´t actually identify it as the Oseberg ship burial. He just says "DNA samples were taken from a Viking found at a burial site alongside the ancient Drakker longship."...
"Drakker" is not the name of any ship burial I have been able to find, but it is suspiciously close to the word "Drekkar" or "Draker" which is the name of a type of ship, and that he says it´s from a "Viking" I suspect might be due to the same vagueness (and incompetence?) that is the general vibe of his statements in the article.
Going through the material the only example that I think he could be talking about is the one at Oseberg, but if anyone know of any other sites which fit the description I´m willing to check that out as well.


Edited by hlewagastir - 21-Dec-2013 at 08:53
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2013 at 04:55
Maybe something more for vik/wic. Hlewagastir had already explained the meanings of it, but they are all related. Vik/wic as bay is a place were people settled, where people settle they can trade so a vik/wic is also a trading place. If one goes on a trading travel he goes viking and a man who does so is a viking. But trading in those far days was not only trading, but as well robbing.

I didn't know, that there is also a pseudo-historical thesis, that Vikings are Iranians. But after I had to see, that Germanics or especially Saxons shall be iranian, too, I am not that surprised. Is there not enough real history people can talk about?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2013 at 09:44
Vikings were also a Germanic people, there is certainly a reason that everyone talks about relations between some Iranian and Germanic peoples, of course historical evidences also show these people had usually strong relations, for almost a long time some of them had even common kings, like Genseric.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2013 at 10:31
of course were there relations between Iranians and germanic people. Skythians and sarmatians lived in the steppe area in the Ukraine and down till the danube plains. jazygs lived even on the Hungarian plains. The ethnic origin of the bastarnae isn't that sure, but usually are they considered to be Germanic. The people of the Wielbark- and Przeworsk-culture as well moved towards the Balkans and Ukraine and people from the Wielbark-culture, together with dacian and sarmatian people evolved the cernjachov culture. During the migration period germanics together with huns and alans moved westwards into the Roman empire, the hasdingi even included the Alans, after these were widely destroyed by westgothic-roman armies and moved together to Northern Africa. The Vikings moved south along the russian rivers till the black sea and maybe they had there as well contacts with iranian people. But those were in the steppe area widely replaced by Turks.

So we see that there was a neighbourhood between Iranians and Germanics for several hundreds of years. To make it exact, iranian doesn't mean here modern Iranians, but a linguistic family of people who are called today Iranians, widely scythians and later sarmatians. But these neighbourhood is all that links germanic people with Iranian people. There was not a single iranian migration into the Germania, that led to a settlement of people. The jastorf, the Viking culture, all are based on older, native origins and not on a supposed migration of Iranians.

And please, not everyone is talking about relations between some iranians and germanic people in the way you propagate it. This is mainly a pseudo-historic debate in some internet fora.


Edited by beorna - 22-Dec-2013 at 10:33
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  Quote hlewagastir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2013 at 22:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Vikings were also a Germanic people, there is certainly a reason that everyone talks about relations between some Iranian and Germanic peoples, of course historical evidences also show these people had usually strong relations, for almost a long time some of them had even common kings, like Genseric.

Originally posted by hlewagastir


IOW, Vikings weren´t a tribe or a people, I was more or less a word for an activity, or a profession derived from that activity, which were used in Northern Europe for a few centuries.

-_- Dude... Try to read my second post in this thread, and ponder for a moment the words; "Northern Europe", "Germanic peoples spread over a huge area" and "Viking Age".
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2013 at 06:33
Originally posted by hlewagastir


IOW, Vikings weren´t a tribe or a people, I was more or less a word for an activity, or a profession derived from that activity, which were used in Northern Europe for a few centuries.
This seems to be similar to the term saxones/sahsnotas, which I link, in contrast to the main stream historians, not with sax/sahs, but with the expression saec, sacu, sacan, for "to brawl", "fight" etc.
The saxons are as well not a tribe, but a conglomerate of different tribes, gentes, a so-called "Stammesschwarm" (swarm of tribes)
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  Quote hlewagastir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2013 at 14:32
Originally posted by beorna

Originally posted by hlewagastir


IOW, Vikings weren´t a tribe or a people, I was more or less a word for an activity, or a profession derived from that activity, which were used in Northern Europe for a few centuries.
This seems to be similar to the term saxones/sahsnotas, which I link, in contrast to the main stream historians, not with sax/sahs, but with the expression saec, sacu, sacan, for "to brawl", "fight" etc.
The saxons are as well not a tribe, but a conglomerate of different tribes, gentes, a so-called "Stammesschwarm" (swarm of tribes)

I would say no. Saxons were a conglomerate of different tribes, but still bound up on tribes, and the word was used for the whole conglomerate (or the collection of tribes as a whole) - which includes every activity, societal function and type of people within the tribes.

To go Viking was an activity, or a word used of one partaking in that particular activity: Some Saxons might have been Vikings, but not all Vikings were Saxons; some Slavs were Vikings, but not every Viking was a Slav; Some Danes were Vikings, but not every Viking was a Dane; and so on.

You could be a Saxon and work as a farmer or a blacksmith without ever going trading and raiding overseas in your life. You would still be a Saxon, but certainly not a Viking.

About the meaning and etymology of the word: I´m at my parent's house for Christmas, so I´ll have to take your word on it until I get back to my books.




Edited by hlewagastir - 23-Dec-2013 at 14:33
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2013 at 15:00
Well, usually these term was given to looting and first of all sea-faring people. Like for the Vikings who were from Danmark, Norway, Götarland or Sweden or as you said Slavs or Frisians, the term Saxones was used for very different people. Later these term was used for people in general, in britain and in the areas on the right side of the rhine river. This is different indeed for the Vikings. They did not give these name to a later people, but was replaced by Dani, Northmani, Rus etc.
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