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Vikings (Al-Majus) and Iranians

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vikings (Al-Majus) and Iranians
    Posted: 02-Jul-2013 at 21:44
How long has there been a connection between the Vikings and the Iranians?  I understand that Zoroastrian dualism may have influenced Nordic apocalyptic literature, and it has also come to my understanding that the Arabs called the Vikings Al-Majus.  I know that the Vikings made their way to Iran and had scrimages with the Dalamites, but I have also come across information that points to an Iranian origin for the Vikings. 
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2013 at 00:38
Cyrus's topic Viking ship in Iran
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114

Iranian-Viking relation is real but Iranic origin for the Vikings. You should be more clear and could you tell me more about similarity between Nordic apocalyptic literature and Zoroastrian. Big smile

 

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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2013 at 00:49
Originally posted by Ollios

Cyrus's topic Viking ship in Iran
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=114

Iranian-Viking relation is real but Iranic origin for the Vikings. You should be more clear and could you tell me more about similarity between Nordic apocalyptic literature and Zoroastrian. Big smile

 



I think the idea that Zoroastrian duality between God and the Devil influenced the pairs of opposite gods that battle at the end of the world cycle has been around for a while.  Joseph Campbell discusses it briefly in his Occidental mythology.    
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2013 at 01:33
Too much speculation. Iranian origin for the Vikings is a fantasy. After all, some of the Iranian tribes themselves originate from Caucasus. (Proto-Indo-European tribes of Iran). The same applies to Scandinavian tribes.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2013 at 16:20
Originally posted by TITAN_

Too much speculation. Iranian origin for the Vikings is a fantasy. After all, some of the Iranian tribes themselves originate from Caucasus. (Proto-Indo-European tribes of Iran). The same applies to Scandinavian tribes.

Maybe, but this former has quoted a published work which claims that the Germanic people came from Iran and India, too, to explain where the Zoroastrian ideas in Nordic mythology originated.  Its worth reading for anyone interested in Zoroastrian Nordic parallels.  







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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2013 at 17:27
If something is real, that should be provable from different sources. I need more sources. You have just Thor Heyerdahl Big smile

I have found his chat in 2011. This is interesting

"DNA samples were taken from a Viking found at a burial site alongside the ancient Drakker longship. Those samples were compared to samples from Caucasian people and Azerbaijanis and it was proven that this Viking really did have kinship with them. Look at a map of ancient Europe and you will see that in ancient times Northern Europe was all covered with ice. After the ice started melting, people began migrating to the north and if you pay attention to the route, you will see that they migrated there from the Caucasus and Azerbaijan, since they had no other route to travel to the north because elsewhere, to the left and right, was entirely covered with ice."

"So why do some scientific circles and countries deny the migration of the Vikings from the Caucasus and Azerbaijan?
The thing is that every scientist is a specialist in their own narrow sphere, they have their scientific chair, students, image and scientific degrees. So, if something goes contrary to the scientific world created by the specialist, their influence and wage, they will start opposing an idea and facts that threaten to destroy the ideal life. Every specialist and scientist has gone deeply into their sphere of studies where they have dug a deep hole from which they cannot see anything else. Then along comes someone who views everything not through the prism of "holes" but gathers all the facts accumulated by others into a single concept."

Ancient Dna's is the easiest way and his idea about hole is a bit true. Sometimes we need to think without acception.

Have you ever watch World War Z. There is quite interesting method in Israel(of course it is fiction or not who cares. It is still goodWink)  There is 12 men who give direction the goverment policies but when all 12 people agree on something. A different man(number 13) tries to convince others for opposite opinion. It is not important how looks impossible.

You get my attension, but I need more different sources
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2013 at 19:57
Originally posted by Ollios

If something is real, that should be provable from different sources. I need more sources. You have just Thor Heyerdahl Big smile

I have found his chat in 2011. This is interesting

"DNA samples were taken from a Viking found at a burial site alongside the ancient Drakker longship. Those samples were compared to samples from Caucasian people and Azerbaijanis and it was proven that this Viking really did have kinship with them. Look at a map of ancient Europe and you will see that in ancient times Northern Europe was all covered with ice. After the ice started melting, people began migrating to the north and if you pay attention to the route, you will see that they migrated there from the Caucasus and Azerbaijan, since they had no other route to travel to the north because elsewhere, to the left and right, was entirely covered with ice."

"So why do some scientific circles and countries deny the migration of the Vikings from the Caucasus and Azerbaijan?
The thing is that every scientist is a specialist in their own narrow sphere, they have their scientific chair, students, image and scientific degrees. So, if something goes contrary to the scientific world created by the specialist, their influence and wage, they will start opposing an idea and facts that threaten to destroy the ideal life. Every specialist and scientist has gone deeply into their sphere of studies where they have dug a deep hole from which they cannot see anything else. Then along comes someone who views everything not through the prism of "holes" but gathers all the facts accumulated by others into a single concept."

Ancient Dna's is the easiest way and his idea about hole is a bit true. Sometimes we need to think without acception.

Have you ever watch World War Z. There is quite interesting method in Israel(of course it is fiction or not who cares. It is still goodWink)  There is 12 men who give direction the goverment policies but when all 12 people agree on something. A different man(number 13) tries to convince others for opposite opinion. It is not important how looks impossible.

You get my attension, but I need more different sources

Haven't seen World War Z yet. Waiting for it to come out on DVD.  In any case, I'm neutral on the subject matter.  The idea that the Vikings migrated out of an Iranic zone is new to me.  This may or may not be of some consequence, but I was studying DNA and it seems that a lot of Swedish and Norwegian kings bore haplogroup I and according to wikipedia haplogroup I is frequent in Iran making it a possible origin of the I haplogroup.  I think paleontologically the Iranians (at least the Pashtuns) have always been classified Nordic too.  If I come across more sources for an Iranian origin of the Vikings I'll be sure to post them.  But like I said I'm new to the idea, and I'm not really sure whether there is a lot of info on the subject out there.  Nevertheless it appears to be convention that at some point the Germanic people were in contact with the Iranians and this explains Iranian influence on Nordic apocalyptic literature.   
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2013 at 06:33
Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Too much speculation. Iranian origin for the Vikings is a fantasy. After all, some of the Iranian tribes themselves originate from Caucasus. (Proto-Indo-European tribes of Iran). The same applies to Scandinavian tribes.

Maybe, but this former has quoted a published work which claims that the Germanic people came from Iran and India, too, to explain where the Zoroastrian ideas in Nordic mythology originated.  Its worth reading for anyone interested in Zoroastrian Nordic parallels.  





This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2013 at 13:21
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by mojobadshah

Originally posted by TITAN_

Too much speculation. Iranian origin for the Vikings is a fantasy. After all, some of the Iranian tribes themselves originate from Caucasus. (Proto-Indo-European tribes of Iran). The same applies to Scandinavian tribes.

Maybe, but this former has quoted a published work which claims that the Germanic people came from Iran and India, too, to explain where the Zoroastrian ideas in Nordic mythology originated.  Its worth reading for anyone interested in Zoroastrian Nordic parallels.  





This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

"Ancient Aliens" and the History Channel in general is a joke.  They just did a series on the Bible.  What does the Bible have to do with history?  I also saw one "Ancient Aliens" documentary on the underground tunnels in Turkey.  They tried to connected these tunnels to Yima's Var, which is kind of interesting, they did mention that Zoroastrianism had some influence on Judeo-Christianity, but instead of doing a serious investigation into Zoroastrianism and its influences on Judeo-Christianity they tried to transform the cosmic battle between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu into a battle between good aliens and bad aliens.  

The reason I make a point of Zoroastrian influence on Nordic apocalyptic literature is because this similarity is different.  There established parallels between the Avesta and the Eddas such as Yima and Yimr, the birth of man and woman out of a tree, and the aesir-bridge/chinvat bridge, then there are actual influences such as a final battle at the end of time between opposites.  For there to have been a Zoroastrian influence on Nordic literature the Nordic people must have been in contact with the Iranians at some point early on after both groups had split from the Proto-Indo-Europeans.  
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  Quote Ollios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2013 at 17:35
Originally posted by TITAN_


This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

Don't be so stick, you can be broke Big smile

Wasn't Hittites just a biblical Mtyh? Wasn't Troy a Greek tale? 

There is certain connection between Azerbaijan and Vikings 

Yes origin is a lot big thing to claim easily, but it shouldn't stop us to search. 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 02:20
I believe the name of Vikings relates to the name of Wakhi people, according to etymonline website: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=viking&searchmode=none Viking means "one who came from the fjords," from vik "creek, inlet, small bay" (cf. Old English wic, Middle High German wich "bay," and second element in Reykjavik). [Fjords are underwater U-shaped valleys]
 
I have read different things about the meaning of "Vakh", especially in the names of some rivers such as Vakhan, Vakhjir, Vakhshu (Oxus) in the Central Asia, about the last one, as you read here: http://amudaryo.uz/?p=2601&lang=en it says in the Bactrian language "Vakh" meant “water-nymph” or “the God of water”
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wakhan : The Wakhan is located in the extreme north-east of Afghanistan. It contains the headwaters of the Amu Darya (Oxus) River, and was an ancient corridor for travellers from the Tarim Basin to Badakshan. Until 1883 the Wakhan included the whole valley of the Panj River and the Pamir River, as well as the upper flow of the Panj River known as the Wakhan River.
 
The eastern extremity of Upper Wakhan is known as the Pamir Knot, the area where the Himalayas, Tian Shan, Karakoram, Kunlun, and Hindu Kush ranges meet. West of the Pamir Knot is the Little Pamir, a broad U-shaped grassy valley 100 km long and 10 km wide,[3] which contains Chaqmaqtin Lake, the headwaters of the Aksu or Murghab River. At the eastern end of the Little Pamir is the Tegermansu Valley, from where the closed Tegermansu Pass (4,827 m) leads to China. The Great Pamir or Big Pamir, a valley 60 km long valley south of Zorkol lake, drained by the Pamir River, lies to the northwest of the Little Pamir.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 04:08
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_


This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

Don't be so stick, you can be broke Big smile

Wasn't Hittites just a biblical Mtyh? Wasn't Troy a Greek tale? 

There is certain connection between Azerbaijan and Vikings 

Yes origin is a lot big thing to claim easily, but it shouldn't stop us to search. 



The Hittites are known from historical records, so they are not a myth. Their own inscriptions that date back to 1600 BC, have survived to tell us who they were... Troy was also discovered in Turkey, and it is most likely the city described by Homer.

Regarding connections, ancestry is one thing and contact quite another. I can find connections between Romans and Indians as well, so what?LOL
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 12:58
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by TITAN_


This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?

Don't be so stick, you can be broke Big smile

Wasn't Hittites just a biblical Mtyh? Wasn't Troy a Greek tale? 

There is certain connection between Azerbaijan and Vikings 

Yes origin is a lot big thing to claim easily, but it shouldn't stop us to search. 



The Hittites are known from historical records, so they are not a myth. Their own inscriptions that date back to 1600 BC, have survived to tell us who they were... Troy was also discovered in Turkey, and it is most likely the city described by Homer.

Regarding connections, ancestry is one thing and contact quite another. I can find connections between Romans and Indians as well, so what?LOL

I think his point was that at one time the Hittites and Troy were thought to be fictional, but now we have evidence to prove that they were real.

You can find connections between all cultures, but there is a method that determines whether these connections descended from a common ancestor or whether they were borrowed.  I presume that scholars believe that the Nordic apocalyptic literature borrowed from Zoroastrian literature because the motif in question can only be found in Nordic and Iranian literature, not all Indo-European literature, hence the borrowing occurred after the Proto-Indo-European split.  

I just happened to come across a source that is now claiming DNA evidence of a link between the Vikings and Iranians.  DNA evidence is pretty conclusive if you ask me.  

Like I said I have even done some research into Viking and Iranian DNA and this is what I found:

Haplogroups I and X are each found in only 1% of the modern European population. Haplogroup I has been found in over 10% of the bodies in tested from Viking cemeteries. - http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25039-Vikings-had-rare-mtDNA-haplogroups

Haplogroup I is a descendant (subclade) of haplogroup N1e'I (Behar 2012b) and sibling of haplogroup N1e (Behar 2012b). It is believed to have arisen somewhere in Eurasia between 17,263 and 24,451 years before present (Behar 2012b). It has been suggested that its origin may be in northern Iran or in Europe towards the Carpathian Mountain region where its highest frequency is found (Terreros 2011). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(mtDNA)

When haplogroup made their way out of Iran is another question.  Could it have been after the PIE split? And after the Nordic people borrowed apocalyptic ideas from the Zoroastrians?  I don't know, but it does appear pretty conclusive that the Iranians and Vikings share the same DNA.  
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 13:37
Haplogroup I
Iran (North)-3/319.70%Terreros 2011
Iran (South)-2/1171.70%Terreros 2011
I should also add that the Snori, author of the Eddas, themselves believed the Vikings to have originated in Turkey, so outside of Scandinavia.  
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 13:52
Originally posted by TITAN_

This reminds me of "ancient aliens" History channel stuff... OuchConfused

Similarities in different mythologies and religions don't prove anything at all. It's like saying that Egyptian pyramids and Mayan pyramids are connected Confused

What about the swastika? Found in ancient India, China, South Europe etc. etc.  Does it prove anything regarding who invented this symbol first and who copied it?
 
Of course some similarities can be found among different remote cultures and they don't prove anything but we are talking about two cultures which have certainly a common Indo-European origin, some of these Indo-European cultures have more things in common and it is meaningless to say these are just coincidences!
 
Many things in the Germanic and Iranian cultures are not just similar but the same and it is easy to find the differences between them and other Indo-European cultures, for example look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warg
 
In Old Norse, vargr is a term for "wolf" (ulfr). The Proto-Germanic *wargaz is related to proto-Iranian *verk "wolf", Avestan vehrka, Mazandarani varg, Zazaki verg, Old Persian varka-, Persian gorg etc. In line 1514 of Beowulf, Grendel's mother is described as a grund-wyrgen or "warg of the depths."


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 08-Jul-2013 at 13:53
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 14:35
Central Asian origin of Vikings by Dr. David K. Faux http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 14:39
Originally posted by mojobadshah

You can find connections between all cultures, but there is a method that determines whether these connections descended from a common ancestor or whether they were borrowed.  I presume that scholars believe that the Nordic apocalyptic literature borrowed from Zoroastrian literature because the motif in question can only be found in Nordic and Iranian literature, not all Indo-European literature, hence the borrowing occurred after the Proto-Indo-European split. 
 
In the first part you are right, but it is difficult to say which one was borrowed from another one, for some reasons I think the more northern one is older, for example one of important common things in the Norse and Iranian cultures which can not be found in other Indo-European cultures is Fimbulvetr (three successive winters), according to Avesta, it was the most important event in the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej), it is clear this event couldn't happen in the southern lands.
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 14:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by mojobadshah

You can find connections between all cultures, but there is a method that determines whether these connections descended from a common ancestor or whether they were borrowed.  I presume that scholars believe that the Nordic apocalyptic literature borrowed from Zoroastrian literature because the motif in question can only be found in Nordic and Iranian literature, not all Indo-European literature, hence the borrowing occurred after the Proto-Indo-European split. 
 
In the first part you are right, but it is difficult to say which one was borrowed from another one, for some reasons I think the more northern one is older, for example one of important common things in the Norse and Iranian cultures which can not be found in other Indo-European cultures is Fimbulvetr (three successive winters), according to Avesta, it was the most important event in the original land of Iranians, the Airyana Vaeja (Iran-Vej), it is clear this event couldn't happen in the southern lands.

Could you kindly elaborate on this point.  So the Fimbulvetr (three winters) parallels to Avestan, and this event took place in Northern lands and not south.  The Avestan people were Northeast Iranic people so I can understand that.  If it was a Zoroastrian motif, wouldn't it have been prominent among southern Iranians too?  Sorry I'm not really clear on your point.   
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 15:55
I have talked about it in this thread: A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia, as I said there, about celebration of Yalda (Yuletide) festival: Iranian people orginally lived somewhere that the sun and its heat were very important for them, so one of the most important Iranian festivals, one of two ancient festivals which is still celebrated by Iranians, is Yalda (another one is Noruz, the Persian new year), because Iranian believed at this night, the longest night of the year, the sun is reborn, so they don't sleep until dawn to see the sun and celebrate!
 
It is important to mention that most of Iranian mythical stories happened in the cold lands, in fact they show those lands located far from Iran, however the names of some lands in modern Iran, like Sistan and Mazandaran, are seen in these stories.
 
Rostam & Div
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2013 at 16:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I have talked about it in this thread: A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia, as I said there, about celebration of Yalda (Yuletide) festival: Iranian people orginally lived somewhere that the sun and its heat were very important for them, so one of the most important Iranian festivals, one of two ancient festivals which is still celebrated by Iranians, is Yalda (another one is Noruz, the Persian new year), because Iranian believed at this night, the longest night of the year, the sun is reborn, so they don't sleep until dawn to see the sun and celebrate!
 
It is important to mention that most of Iranian mythical stories happened in the cold lands, in fact they show those lands located far from Iran, however the names of some lands in modern Iran, like Sistan and Mazandaran, are seen in these stories.
 
Rostam & Div

Ah... ok, so the idea of a great battle between opposites appears in other IE. literature too.  So why exactly do scholars think the Iranian's influenced Nordic apocalyptic literature?  Is it purely based on the idea of a great winter beforehand?

And I was told by formers on wordreference.com that there is no connection between the names Yuletide and Yalda?  Were you implying this?  Or are you merely saying that the celebrations themselves have resemblances?


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