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Christianity and homophobia

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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Christianity and homophobia
    Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:39
Originally posted by KongMing

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!
 
You're wrong Titan. I'm a believer in Christianity, and quite grounded in it. Our example is to love as Christ loved. Just because we know the consequences of other people's actions (Or even attitudes), doesn't mean that we WANT that consequence to follow. The problem with citing the Old Testament as a hate mongering book is that it is based on preserving Israel so it will produce the Messiah so he could save all of Mankind. (That's Jesus to us, the Believers). Hence why so many harsh rules were enforced.

Christianity does not really reject the Old Testament which remains as part of the new religion. The New Testament improves on the Old one, but does accept it as ...prehistory. 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:41
Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!



I'm not gonna comment on the 'homosexuals must be killed' bit because I don't like to start criticising other religions and starting flame wars.

What I will say is that I disagree with you 100% on your first statement which is purely false and only represents your personal take on the matter. Yes, you can hate homosexuality, even loathe it but still love homosexual individuals and respect them. Your statement is completely invalid.

I hate crime, I hate murder but I don't necessarily harbour ill feelings towards murderers because I believe that they can be rehabilitated and I wish them to repent and walk on the straight path instead.

Sure, homosexuals may object to me wanting them to stop acting homosexual but then that's my perogative and I have the full right to hold such a position whilst not hating homosexual individuals per se.



Then you are an exception to the rule... All those who hate homosexuality, hate homosexuals too, either with or without showing it... 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:43
Originally posted by Sidney

Originally posted by TITAN_


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused
Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!


This is not true. You can hate a behaviour (homosexuality) without hating the practitioners (homosexuals). I hate mathematics, but I don't hate mathematicians; I only hate what they do. A homosexual is more than just the sexual act engaged in, despite how strongly the personal or political image might be defined by it.

From a Christian perspective, you hate the sin, not the sinner. The Old Testament does say "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13), but the Old Testament is not Christianity (if it was, then Christianity would be Judaism and not Christianity). The New Testament of Christ is exactly that - a 'new' testament, that replaced the 'old' one. It does retain the view that homosexuality is a sin, but no longer upholds the idea of killing a sinner, because everyone is a sinner at some level (cf. the adulterous woman who Jesus defended from being stoned: 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone' which shamed her accusers into releasing her(John 8:2-11). The old Mosaic laws are still honoured, but given a different perspective that alters their application.




This is a pure contradiction. Mosaic laws were quite clear and ruthless. You cannot honour them by.... rejecting them! Confused


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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:45
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!
 
You're wrong Titan. I'm a believer in Christianity, and quite grounded in it. Our example is to love as Christ loved. Just because we know the consequences of other people's actions (Or even attitudes), doesn't mean that we WANT that consequence to follow. The problem with citing the Old Testament as a hate mongering book is that it is based on preserving Israel so it will produce the Messiah so he could save all of Mankind. (That's Jesus to us, the Believers). Hence why so many harsh rules were enforced.

Christianity does not really reject the Old Testament which remains as part of the new religion. The New Testament improves on the Old one, but does accept it as ...prehistory. 
 
Well now that's a convenient way to unfairly condemn Christianity.
The Old Testament's laws were put into place so that the Jewish people could produce the Messiah (Which is Jesus). Jesus paid honor and accepted the Old Covenant because it was and still is God's Word. It doesn't mean we ought to run around wiping out cities and stoning people for not keeping the law. The point of Jesus accepting the Old Covenant was God's Word simply only applies to recognizing it as God's Word. That's it.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:48
That makes no sense, whatsoever. You actually imply that God changed his mind and the ruthless Mosaic laws became invalid? What are you trying to say? 
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:50
Mosaic Law was set into place so the Messiah could come forth from the society practicing those Laws. Jesus lives.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:53
Originally posted by KongMing

Mosaic Law was set into place so the Messiah could come forth from the society practicing those Laws. Jesus lives.

So you admit that God approved laws that require the killing of homosexuals or those who work on the Sabbath day.... 
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 13:55
Yes. . . and it doesn't matter, no matter how sad or brutal how it seems. The death  of people, is sad. God says he doesn't even like to kill those who are evil.

Unfortunately, the deaths of thousands or even millions is nothing compared to the eternal agony and suffering of Hell. Without the Messiah who was brought forth from the Jewish people, the truth of the matter is the eternal destiny of everyone who has ever lived would be Hell.

The death of many people through seemingly unfair laws or even misunderstandings is preferable to the entirety of Mankind going to Hell.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 14:03
Originally posted by KongMing

Yes. . . and it doesn't matter, no matter how sad or brutal how it seems. The death  of people, is sad. God says he doesn't even like to kill those who are evil.

Unfortunately, the deaths of thousands or even millions is nothing compared to the eternal agony and suffering of Hell. Without the Messiah who was brought forth from the Jewish people, the truth of the matter is the eternal destiny of everyone who has ever lived would be Hell.

The death of many people through seemingly unfair laws or even misunderstandings is preferable to the entirety of Mankind going to Hell.

A god who is all-loving and all-knowing, demands the death of homosexuals and those who work on a Sabbath day? I don't sense much love there. It sounds more like a Punisher. 
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 14:05
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Yes. . . and it doesn't matter, no matter how sad or brutal how it seems. The death  of people, is sad. God says he doesn't even like to kill those who are evil.

Unfortunately, the deaths of thousands or even millions is nothing compared to the eternal agony and suffering of Hell. Without the Messiah who was brought forth from the Jewish people, the truth of the matter is the eternal destiny of everyone who has ever lived would be Hell.

The death of many people through seemingly unfair laws or even misunderstandings is preferable to the entirety of Mankind going to Hell.

A god who is all-loving and all-knowing, demands the death of homosexuals and those who work on a Sabbath day? I don't sense much love there. It sounds more like a Punisher. 
 
An all-KNOWING God would put the suffering and discomfort in front of people, even innocents ahead of them to avoid ETERNAL SUFFERING AND AGONY. God's not a quicker fixer upper. He's an Eternal God who plans to wipe out all Evil and ultimately even all suffering from the universe. If he wants to just get rid of Evil he'd have to kill everyone. So he's doing it the best way. We in our mortal understandings cannot fathom why he does things the way he does, but he does.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 15:12
An all-knowing god knows who is good and who is bad. He knows who is going to hell and who he is going to heaven, therefore he is a sadist in my book. We are pawns in his game of chess. 
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 15:12
Anyway, I wish to put an end to this debate, since I am an atheist and none of this makes any sense.
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  Quote KongMing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 15:14
Originally posted by TITAN_

Anyway, I wish to put an end to this debate, since I am an atheist and none of this makes any sense.
 
 
I found out that debating with anyone with their mindset on condemning my Faith is worthless anyway. So that's one thing you've said in this entire discussion that makes any sense to me.
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  Quote TITAN_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 15:29
I do not condemn any faith in particular, as I said. Atheists simply do not believe in ANY faith at all. 
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 16:13
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Baal Melqart

Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by KongMing

Ugh. The Old Testament does not hate homosexuals. It hates homosexuality. And whether or not us Westerners will accept it or not, there's a difference, since the Bible says homosexuality is a sin, you may only need look to the New Testament and see that homosexuals are lumped into the category of sinners that everyone else is.


If you hate homosexuality, you hate homosexuals too, there is no other way. You can't love homosexuals while hating on homosexuality Confused

Moreover, there is a passage saying that homosexuals must be  killed.... There is no room for alternative interpretations here. The Old Testament is clear and the Old Testament is part of ALL 3 main monotheistic religions!



I'm not gonna comment on the 'homosexuals must be killed' bit because I don't like to start criticising other religions and starting flame wars.

What I will say is that I disagree with you 100% on your first statement which is purely false and only represents your personal take on the matter. Yes, you can hate homosexuality, even loathe it but still love homosexual individuals and respect them. Your statement is completely invalid.

I hate crime, I hate murder but I don't necessarily harbour ill feelings towards murderers because I believe that they can be rehabilitated and I wish them to repent and walk on the straight path instead.

Sure, homosexuals may object to me wanting them to stop acting homosexual but then that's my prerogative and I have the full right to hold such a position whilst not hating homosexual individuals per se.



Then you are an exception to the rule... All those who hate homosexuality, hate homosexuals too, either with or without showing it... 
 
 
 
 
Continued over generalizations. Subjective interpretation and flamatory statements. It is entirely beyond your ability to prove that statement. Consequently it remains nothing more then a Troll.
 
You are now official warned.
 
If you disagree with this warning; you may as per the Coc pm another staff or the admin-owner for redress. Do not respond to this staff action in any other fashion or in this thread. If you do, I will suspend you for further trolling and failure to follow the Coc and staff directive.
 
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 20:35
Apparently gay people are called "faggots" because Christians used to burn them to death. The original faggot was a piece of wood used to light the hearth
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  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2013 at 21:35
Doubtful in it's actual origin. Tho possible. That depends entirely in the term's colloquial usage; as it has been used to describe many things to include a bundle of sticks...a measurement unit of sticks...maybe synonymous with fasces... and military fascines. Or the  Christian allegory of the participants lives and souls being burned up up quickly; as the small sticks were, in the creation of a fire, because of their percieved aberrant behavior.
 
It is however historically accurate to describe their punishment in the very early Christian era viz the Code Theodosian. Death by fire. Like a witch or sorcerer etc.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 04-Mar-2013 at 21:53
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  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2013 at 09:50
Simply from an anatomical biological perspective.

Is not the homo sexual "act" unnatural?
And as such against "gods" design.
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  Quote Baal Melqart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2013 at 09:59
Originally posted by Azita

Simply from an anatomical biological perspective.

Is not the homo sexual "act" unnatural?
And as such against "gods" design.



It goes against the theory of evolution and natural selection... which are based on the capacity of species to survive through reproduction. Some species are naturally 'homosexual' such as seahorses and manatees but they are able to reproduce in this manner and survive.


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  Quote Sidney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2013 at 11:53
Originally posted by Baal Melqart


Originally posted by Azita

Simply from an anatomical biological perspective.Is not the homo sexual "act" unnatural?And as such against "gods" design.
It goes against the theory of evolution and natural selection... which are based on the capacity of species to survive through reproduction. Some species are naturally 'homosexual' such as seahorses and manatees but they are able to reproduce in this manner and survive.


Baal Melqart - Seahorses and manatees do not reproduce through same sex copulation. But regardless of that, how does homosexuality go against evolution? If humans have evolved to include it in their diversity, then it must be part of evolution, otherwise where does it come from? Not everything in life is expressly concentrated on the production of offspring (hypermobility, the appendix, hair colour, etc).

Azita- The homosexual act requires no artificial modifications to the body, so how is it unnatural? It is not done for the intention of producing children, so its failure to do so seems a pointless comment. If you mean that semen is wasted, then that means men who have sex with women but use a condom, or have sex with post-menopausal women, are performing a even more unnatural act, because the woman should 'naturally' get pregnant. Men having sex with men produces a 'natural' result - no children.

If I follow the above two posts' logic {sex is only natural/god's design if it leads to pregnancy), then rape is natural and okay as long as the victim gets pregnant.

Homosexual acts between consenting adults is no ones business to judge but their own.

Edited by Sidney - 06-Mar-2013 at 12:00
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